Hey..... It is the CAP.....
They all think they can walk on water and their farts don't stink...
..
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Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?
- Thread starter HighFlyingA380
- Start date
Hey..... It is the CAP.....
They all think they can walk on water and their farts don't stink...
..
TheTraveler
Line Up and Wait
Hey..... It is the CAP.....
They all think they can walk on water and their farts don't stick...
Stick to what...?
I corrected the misfire..
Hey, I am still CAP member for another 29 days.... I cannot make mistakes..
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hey..... It is the CAP.....
They all think they can walk on water and their farts don't stink...
Not ALL of us.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
They were, and are, missing critical functionality that worked quite well in the prior version.
Even with the fact that they fix things every week, they're still below 70% of the old version's functionality.
And "oh, it's just reporting" is a bad argument. The purpose of WMIRS is reporting. Web Mission Information Reporting System. It's like Microsoft released Excel 2015, disabled all prior versions, and said "Hey, the SUM function isn't in there, we're working on it."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Some folks here seem fired up about the WMIRS update. What you may not know is that, due to WMIRS not really being kept up with changing technology, FEMA interop requirements, and USAF evaluation guidelines, wings and regions were rolling their own tracking systems. Frankly, that speaks to a serious need to upgrade CAP's systems.
I work in the "business software" industry, and let me tell you, CAP is actually doing this one right. They rolled out software quickly, reacted to feedback from the field, and release new features and fixes damn near every week.. For those in the know, it is clearly being run like a professional agile project. People who grumble about it just don't understand how bad it would have been had they gathered requirements for a year and spent two years developing a replacement system. I have seen them do that too, and it was a disaster. Figure someone at NHQ IT has been reading trade mags for once
Agile is awesome. For developers.
Continuous bugs, no solid business goals for the long term, and no accountability. We'll just fix it in the next Epic. Yay.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Which brings up another good reason I am leaving the CAP....
Seems last year they hired a bunch of idiots to redo their website....
For months they praised it as better then sliced bread... Then the roll out,...
Followed by what seems like millions of emails from national on how this function needed a tweak, or that function that needed to be done the old way till the "new" patch was installed....
Who in the hell did they contract with to do the website overhaul ?..
Probably the same crooks who did the spectacular Obamacare PPACA site.... And it probably cost the U.S Airforce 100 million dollars too...
Unfortunately, if I correctly understand how CAP HQ software happens, most of the design & development is by volunteers who do not understand the concept of requirements, design, user interface & usability, scheduling, reviews, pushing back when there are unreasonable requests, comprehensive testing, incremental roll-outs, and so on.
On the other hand, much of the software developed outside of HQ control is incredibly useful, well-designed, tested, and then rolled-out.
denverpilot
Tied Down
They could dump all of that as long as they did the testing. When functionality is missing, testing and someone with enough brains and authority to say "not shipping this crap" is plenty of process to stop the low quality screwups in their software. They're not even past that point yet. And it can be taken in stages.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
CAP is typical of any large organization. There are excellent members and there are drones. Always happens this way. The location is what makes the difference along with what type is in charge......a well educated personable person or a bureaucratic drone who dresses up in Air Force clothes and pretends he's curtiss lemay.
They seem to be in the majority of the squadrons...
Funny how national overlooks that flaw.......
Oh , wait, national is full of bureaucratic drones too...
..How large is your sample that you can talk about 'the majority' ?
Large enough to convince me....
I take that as a 1.
HA..
Just search POA for CAP,, total up the negative comments-v- positive ones...
Go to the red board and do the same
Go the BCP and do the same. Go to HBA and do the same...
etc etc etc..
Heck , even the CAP proponents in here will vent on how disfunctional that org is.....
You can draw your own conclusions,, it is a free country ...
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
HA..
Just search POA for CAP,, total up the negative comments-v- positive ones...
Go to the red board and do the same
Go the BCP and do the same. Go to HBA and do the same...
etc etc etc..
Heck , even the CAP proponents in here will vent on how disfunctional that org is.....
You can draw your own conclusions,, it is a free country ...
Here's the conclusion I draw: Your claim was not what the majority of Internet posters believe, it was how the majority of squadrons behave. Now you're moving the goal posts, thus giving yourself an easier target. It doesn't take a high percentage of bozos to generate complaints.
I also doubt that you have actually done the counts that you propose. Even if the statistic turned out the way you think it would, you're overlooking the possibility that critics may be more vocal than supporters.
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Yeah, you can't count your own rants as part of this kind of quantitative internet science.
You guys keep playing military wanna bee's.. The rest of us will be laughing on the sidelines...
You guys keep playing military wanna bee's.. The rest of us will be laughing on the sidelines...
If they made me the king of CAP, I would do away with the air-force uniforms and the military rank structure on day one. Does nothing to support the mission of the organization and I doubt the air force cares one way or the other (all they want is a receipt to go with any expenditure :wink2: ).
denverpilot
Tied Down
Most of the trouble for USAF probably arises out of instances where CAP tries to act too much like they are USAF.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yes. It's why the uniforms are distinct. CAP was able to use surplus uniforms for decades and still tries to with cadet programs to keep the kid's costs down, but USAF wants the uniforms to look different.
There's other unintentional minor problems, like CAP members not knowing on-base customs and courtesies and such. (It helps to know which side of the General to walk on and what the hell "To The Colors" means and what to do.")
And I've been saluted on-base before. No point in not returning it, even though as a civilian I technically never should have received the courtesy in the first place. Not that extending courtesies is wrong.
Usually done by younger enlisted folk who've been thoroughly browbeaten to salute everything that moves and has a uniform on. They probably just think we're from an allied country or more likely that one of their officers is watching and they'll catch hell for not saluting, until they get close enough to see the uniform details.
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Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was taught to return salutes from military personnel, but not to expect them.
So which side of a general are you supposed to walk on? (And wouldn't you get in trouble if you walked on a general regardless of which side it was?)
So which side of a general are you supposed to walk on? (And wouldn't you get in trouble if you walked on a general regardless of which side it was?
)
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds good to me.
I never (OK, rarely...at events that require it) wear anything that indicates rank. I get respect because I do a helluva good job, not because of the grade on my shoulder.
bflynn
Final Approach
This.
Years and years ago in Norfolk, we had the honor of sharing the area with NATO command. There were all kinds of foreign uniforms that came through there. If it had any kind of shoulder board or gold/silver anything on it...even a bellhop...it got saluted. Better safe than to have some tight a** Master Chief run up and chew you out for an 10 minutes before writing you up on a report that the yeoman or the XO was going to lose anyway. We hated to bother the XO with stupid stuff like that.
Courtesy doesn't cost anything either way.
cperry61
Filing Flight Plan
I really enjoyed flying with CAP and attending the SAREX's. They were generally fun and the people were mostly nice. However I stopped attending CAP meetings a couple years ago and I have recently been asked by a few friends to re-join.
You reminded me of what I hated about CAP.
There is absolutely no reason for a military structure in the seniors and wearing uniforms. I retired after 20+ years in the military and I am done with uniforms. I stopped attending meetings when they required us to wear uniforms to be counted present for mandatory "safety" briefings which amounted to telling us to not drink and drive or don't forget to take breaks while shoveling snow. Or you can take an hour long safety class online... If you don't have the safety briefing credit, you are not current to fly.
I have heard some squadrons are much less "military" but unfortunately I really do not feel like I should have look for it.
Will I go back? I just don't know.
Maybe the Commemorative Air Force will be better choice?
denverpilot
Tied Down
Wow... three year necropost! Woooot! LOL
(Chuck, note the date on the post right above yours... last discussed in 2012...)
(Chuck, note the date on the post right above yours... last discussed in 2012...)
cperry61
Filing Flight Plan
Wow... three year necropost! Woooot! LOL
(Chuck, note the date on the post right above yours... last discussed in 2012...)
Actually it was January 2015.
The person above me joined in 2012.
It is a year since last post, but it was the most relevant post I could find on the subject and I saw some of the contributors were online and hoped maybe I would get some encouragement on one director or another.
Actually it was January 2015.
The person above me joined in 2012.
It is a year since last post, but it was the most relevant post I could find on the subject and I saw some of the contributors were online and hoped maybe I would get some encouragement on one director or another.
I will remain silent....
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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If I had to wear a uniform to be counted for safety, I wouldn't stay in.
The mandatory safety currency has gone away entirely, BTW. It's now up to the squadron to provide regular safety briefings.
The only mandatory uniforms I've run into are for using the vehicles and for missions. For ordinary meetings, it's "appropriate business attire" (which in Silicon Valley means jeans are fine as long as they aren't torn).
Nate, it's only about a year old. Jan 2015.
I certainly agree that the quasi-military structure is silly, and it doesn't count for anything important. Some folks like it, but it can largely be ignored with minimal if any effect.
CAP is allowed to wear USAF uniforms, but it is not required for anything. There are corporate equivalents that generally have much looser standards. For instance, I can wear any jacket I want to on top of the corporate (blue) flight suit, except for the official Air Force jacket. I can also wear any head covering I want or none at all.
There IS a need to have a uniform in a mission scenario. You need to know who your team is and what role they are playing. But ordinary meetings? It's becomes silly real fast.
The mandatory safety currency has gone away entirely, BTW. It's now up to the squadron to provide regular safety briefings.
The only mandatory uniforms I've run into are for using the vehicles and for missions. For ordinary meetings, it's "appropriate business attire" (which in Silicon Valley means jeans are fine as long as they aren't torn).
Nate, it's only about a year old. Jan 2015.
I certainly agree that the quasi-military structure is silly, and it doesn't count for anything important. Some folks like it, but it can largely be ignored with minimal if any effect.
CAP is allowed to wear USAF uniforms, but it is not required for anything. There are corporate equivalents that generally have much looser standards. For instance, I can wear any jacket I want to on top of the corporate (blue) flight suit, except for the official Air Force jacket. I can also wear any head covering I want or none at all.
There IS a need to have a uniform in a mission scenario. You need to know who your team is and what role they are playing. But ordinary meetings? It's becomes silly real fast.
OkieAviator
Pattern Altitude
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OkieAviator
CAP is for the elite!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Ahh hell, I misread it.
Here's the summary you'll receive from PoA:
- Some folks will say they've had good experiences in CAP.
- Other folks will say they don't like it and will shout everyone else down who says there are good squadrons and bad squadrons.
That last part is probably the most important. Visit one and see how it runs, and don't believe anything you hear... ask pilots who've been there less than a year if they're involved in flying and missions yet, or if there's a cadre of old-timers that has them pushing the paperwork for them.
And don't kid yourself... there's a metric ass-ton of paperwork to be done. It's volunteer and managed by USAF liasons who think you have time in your normal day to do as much paperwork as they do, flying a desk.
That said, I enjoyed my time in CAP and even on Wing staff as a Communications Engineer under the Wing DC. I just moved wayyyyyy too far out of town to ever make a squadron or Wing staff meeting, and the DC just happened to be "retiring" around the same time, so it was a good time to make a clean exit...
For the second time.
Don't ever tell anyone you know a damned thing about radios, and pretend you don't even know how a mash to mumble button works... or you'll find yourself manning a radio for 16 hours a day during live missions and "the expert" on radios.
Still fulfilling knowing you helped, but if you're a pilot... stick to pretending you know nothing but airplanes.
Here's the summary you'll receive from PoA:
- Some folks will say they've had good experiences in CAP.
- Other folks will say they don't like it and will shout everyone else down who says there are good squadrons and bad squadrons.
That last part is probably the most important. Visit one and see how it runs, and don't believe anything you hear... ask pilots who've been there less than a year if they're involved in flying and missions yet, or if there's a cadre of old-timers that has them pushing the paperwork for them.
And don't kid yourself... there's a metric ass-ton of paperwork to be done. It's volunteer and managed by USAF liasons who think you have time in your normal day to do as much paperwork as they do, flying a desk.
That said, I enjoyed my time in CAP and even on Wing staff as a Communications Engineer under the Wing DC. I just moved wayyyyyy too far out of town to ever make a squadron or Wing staff meeting, and the DC just happened to be "retiring" around the same time, so it was a good time to make a clean exit...
For the second time.
Don't ever tell anyone you know a damned thing about radios, and pretend you don't even know how a mash to mumble button works... or you'll find yourself manning a radio for 16 hours a day during live missions and "the expert" on radios.
Still fulfilling knowing you helped, but if you're a pilot... stick to pretending you know nothing but airplanes.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
OP, I was in your position shortly after getting my PPL. Reading this thread is bringing back all the reasons I didn't join.
Bottom line...if you're joining to fly you'll be very disappointed. I even heard that straight from our local CAP commander.
Bottom line...if you're joining to fly you'll be very disappointed. I even heard that straight from our local CAP commander.
denverpilot
Tied Down
HOLY CRAP... they got rid of that retardedness for the third time since I started in 1991?! I didn't think they'd dump it so soon on attempt number three!
(GRIN!)
That's the real fun part about long term CAP service... you see the stupidity come and go, and come and go, and come around again...
But you do make some good strong friends who stick because you survived self-induced "adversity" together, putting up with it.
Hahaha...
How many online videos are they up to for learning how to push a push to talk button now? They were in that mode again when I left... someone liked making videos about radio buttons at Corporate...
I think I only had ten students in two decades who could figure out that commercial two way radios have "banks" of channels. LOL
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Don't ever tell anyone you know a damned thing about radios, and pretend you don't even know how a mash to mumble button works... or you'll find yourself manning a radio for 16 hours a day during live missions and "the expert" on radios.
PFFFT. HAHA! You're not kidding.
Or IT. Or finance.
If you let it be known that you're an expert in either of those, you're going to be put to work at them.
MAKG1
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Yeah, I went through ICUT and it was more than a little, ahem, stupid.
At least, once it's done, it's done forever.
The scary thing is, all the radio operators have to go through that, too, and as MO in a round dial aircraft, I've had to tell them many times that I cannot answer a roll call while the photographer and pilot are coordinating a shot because the round dial aircraft don't have a copilot isolate mode. I can isolate the pilot, but then the photographer can't talk to him.
CAP does have a bad habit of identifying a need, making a curriculum for it that goes way overboard, and then not having the manpower to actually execute the training in a reasonable time. The one that really gets my goat is the G1000 ground school. It has to be the Cessna school or it doesn't count. And no one wants to teach it 'cause it's a PITA, especially the IFR half. I've already flown several coupled VFR practice approaches that went nearly flawlessly, but I have to do the ground school in order to get tested so I might have authorization to accept a clearance. For round dial aircraft, I just have to demonstrate three approaches with no ground school. And that ground school is offered about once every two years.
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airdale
Pattern Altitude
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airdale
Having spent maybe 5 years in CAP, always being careful to avoid getting sucked into any position of responsibiity and having spent many years in real-world for-profit management I see three problems that are not going to go away:
1) Corporate Culture
CAP managers must behave as if the following is true: "All my subordinates are children." because that is what comes from the top. This is where some of the idiot stuff like mandatory monthly safety briefing comes from. Unfortunately this culture appears to start at the 1st Air Force level and is hence impossible to change.
2) Politics
From observation, I believe that any organization that does not produce measurable outputs inevitably becomes political. No measurements means no objective way to judge performance, so evaluations and promotions become a matter of who you know, how well liked you are, and whether you rock the boat or not.
3) Incompetence
In volunteer organizations there are always people who are there to fulfill needs for prestige and power that are not fulfilled in their day jobs. It is for these people that there is all the military stuff. Rank, merit badges, absurd hierarchies of job titles, etc. (I tell people that CAP is Boy Scouts for adults.) These trinkets and titles are their rewards and they work hard to get them. Unfortunately, there is usually a reason that they do not have power and prestige in their day jobs. This manifests itself as incompetence in their CAP jobs. These people work hard, though, and disproportionately contribute to the organization. So you can't live with them and you can't live without them. My estimate is that this segment comprises at least a third of the active membership. The ample supply of stupid ideas emanating from the highly-political national staff is generously supplemented by the local incompetents whose power needs require them to exercise their little bits of authority.
A poster child for this prestige-seeking class, a recent CAP national commander got fired when it was discovered that he had gotten someone else to take some of his qualification tests for him.
Swimming against this tide, however, there are also many bright, selfless, apolitical and talented people. Enough to keep the boat afloat but, unfortunately, not enough to move it forward very much.
So I fly and do the mission base jobs that I enjoy, keeping my distance from the rest. Where else could I rent a $400K airplane for $20/hour dry plus fuel, all tax deductible? And once in a while we do some good stuff. It works for me.
YMMV.
1) Corporate Culture
CAP managers must behave as if the following is true: "All my subordinates are children." because that is what comes from the top. This is where some of the idiot stuff like mandatory monthly safety briefing comes from. Unfortunately this culture appears to start at the 1st Air Force level and is hence impossible to change.
2) Politics
From observation, I believe that any organization that does not produce measurable outputs inevitably becomes political. No measurements means no objective way to judge performance, so evaluations and promotions become a matter of who you know, how well liked you are, and whether you rock the boat or not.
3) Incompetence
In volunteer organizations there are always people who are there to fulfill needs for prestige and power that are not fulfilled in their day jobs. It is for these people that there is all the military stuff. Rank, merit badges, absurd hierarchies of job titles, etc. (I tell people that CAP is Boy Scouts for adults.) These trinkets and titles are their rewards and they work hard to get them. Unfortunately, there is usually a reason that they do not have power and prestige in their day jobs. This manifests itself as incompetence in their CAP jobs. These people work hard, though, and disproportionately contribute to the organization. So you can't live with them and you can't live without them. My estimate is that this segment comprises at least a third of the active membership. The ample supply of stupid ideas emanating from the highly-political national staff is generously supplemented by the local incompetents whose power needs require them to exercise their little bits of authority.
A poster child for this prestige-seeking class, a recent CAP national commander got fired when it was discovered that he had gotten someone else to take some of his qualification tests for him.
Swimming against this tide, however, there are also many bright, selfless, apolitical and talented people. Enough to keep the boat afloat but, unfortunately, not enough to move it forward very much.
So I fly and do the mission base jobs that I enjoy, keeping my distance from the rest. Where else could I rent a $400K airplane for $20/hour dry plus fuel, all tax deductible? And once in a while we do some good stuff. It works for me.
YMMV.
ChrisK
En-Route
Safety briefings are not automatically linked to currency or required for particular ratings; however, they are still tracked and available to commanders. What I've heard is that this gives commanders at all levels discretion as to how they apply recency of safety briefings such that if someone misses one they won't be automatically excluded.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Haha. Resources. My favorite.
I remember when the AP rating came out and all the brass wanted piles of people trained.
Then the initial word was we had to use "issued" cameras.
Ok. How many Nikons with the GPS tagging does the Wing have?
Two. And we aren't sure if they work.
LOL. Always entertaining, that's for sure.
I remember when the AP rating came out and all the brass wanted piles of people trained.
Then the initial word was we had to use "issued" cameras.
Ok. How many Nikons with the GPS tagging does the Wing have?
Two. And we aren't sure if they work.
LOL. Always entertaining, that's for sure.
OkieAviator
Pattern Altitude
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OkieAviator
Do any real commanders and brass become a part of CAP or is it mainly those that want the military themed boy scouts? Looked up the head guy and doesn't appear to have any actual service... But a ton of ribbons..