Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?

[Kritchlow]

If you're talking about cadets, that program has prepared more than a few young people for careers in the military.

That's great, but it appeared totally unorganized. If it looked at all instructional my impression may have been different.

 

[Sundancer]

Yeah from what I saw, the biggest uniform lovers and fruit salad whores in CAP were those who had no real military experience. Another group were the older ex AF guys who were trying to relive their glory days. I believe that CAP would be better off without the uniforms and AF emphasis.

In fairness to CAP, you can basically skip the uniform nonsense. For 99% of my CAP time, my "uniform" was a polo shirt w/embroidered name and logo, and gray slacks. For a few more formal events, you can wear a blue blazer, rep tie, and a pocket thingy. Never have to go near a military uniform, unless. . .

you hook up with a squadron that loves that stuff, and the commander insists on it. One reason you might need to shop squadrons.

 

[weilke]

If you're talking about cadets, that program has prepared more than a few young people for careers in the military.

Some of 'our' cadets went on to ROTC scholarships, one got his PPL as cadet and should be graduating with his aviation degree from UND next year. I think the cadet program is one of the stronger aspects of CAP. Lining up in formation and doing drill stuff is not for everyone, for the kids with an interest in a military career it is a great way to get started.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, I may be too old, but...

I think it's a worthwhile venture, and likely helps many people. I tip my hat to those who volunteer. That said, I would truly be embarrassed to somehow pretend I was a military guy, and that drives me off.

I saw one day at K???, young guys doing military drills on the ramp. I turned away in embarrassment.

Unless you're under 18, this need not affect you at all. There is no senior drill, and the uniform business is substantially looser. You can opt never to wear an Air Force uniform. If you happen to have cadets at your squadron, it's nice to learn how to return a salute, so the cadets don't feel like dweebs when they salute you. About as far as it goes is that you need to respect others' choices that might be different, such as not screwing around during colors -- some people have rather strong feelings about that. You will get some training in "customs and courtesies," which really is nice to know even if it's not your thing. FWIW, it really isn't mine, and while I've found several people who really are into that, I've never found anyone who insisted I address them by rank, for instance.

And you're not too old.

 

[Maverick]

Yeah from what I saw, the biggest uniform lovers and fruit salad whores in CAP were those who had no real military experience. Another group were the older ex AF guys who were trying to relive their glory days. I believe that CAP would be better off without the uniforms and AF emphasis.

Well if you are dealing with the cadet program then military customs and courtesies are a part of that program. I feel that seeing the leadership in uniforms helps to foster that. I would rather not have people who let that go to their heads as that is not productive in my opinion. During my time with the CAP I have seen a lot of good and bad. As a group commander I have even had to have membership revoked for cause. In that particular case it was someone who should never have been recruited in the first place.

 

[mscard88]

At an airshow this past summer I had a chat w/ squadron CO about flying, and instructing. He said they needed pilots (mission pilots) and especially instructors. I've heard that there is no pay for instructing, is this fact? I'm retired from the Air Force and could get into giving back and encouraging cadets that want to learn to fly, and mission piloting sounds interesting but what I've read here it sounds more paperwork intense than the real Air Force. And I'm not into the uniform much either.

 

[MAKG1]

At an airshow this past summer I had a chat w/ squadron CO about flying, and instructing. He said they needed pilots (mission pilots) and especially instructors. I've heard that there is no pay for instructing, is this fact? I'm retired from the Air Force and could get into giving back and encouraging cadets that want to learn to fly, and mission piloting sounds interesting but what I've read here it sounds more paperwork intense than the real Air Force. And I'm not into the uniform much either.

I really think it's a bad idea to do this to instructors, but it is not allowed to use a CAP aircraft for commercial purposes, including flight instruction. The ONLY exception is for a DPE giving a practical test.

Honestly, I'd like to pay instructors for time not required by CAP. It would help alleviate the constant instructor shortages, and it seems only fair.

I can't speak for the Air Force paperwork, but honestly, the load isn't that bad. It's more than a flying club, but not a lot more. Yes, I have to do a Form 71 inspection every once in a while, but that takes like 5 minutes and it's a subset of preflight. There is some dispatch-like "paperwork" to be done before and after a flight, but it's a website (WMIRS). Basically, you have to say who and what's on the airplane, where you're going, what your schedule is, do a weight and balance, and a risk assessment. Afterward, you have to record your hobbs and tach, plus fuel/oil and results if it's reimbursed (otherwise no one cares). It's not THAT different from what I do on a family flight -- someone on the ground always gets informed about schedule; if it isn't a release officer or air ops branch director, it's a family member.

WMIRS seems modeled after a part 135 operation, but CAP is very careful not to call it "dispatch," presumably for liability reasons. Flight release is an authorization to use the aircraft, not a safety function (though they will call AFRCC if you're overdue by more than two hours).

There must be some paperwork for a mission. There just has to be a way to communicate your results up the chain so the planning section can do their thing. Otherwise, your effort will get wasted as it gets duplicated over and over.

 

[ChrisK]

At an airshow this past summer I had a chat w/ squadron CO about flying, and instructing. He said they needed pilots (mission pilots) and especially instructors. I've heard that there is no pay for instructing, is this fact? I'm retired from the Air Force and could get into giving back and encouraging cadets that want to learn to fly, and mission piloting sounds interesting but what I've read here it sounds more paperwork intense than the real Air Force. And I'm not into the uniform much either.

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/pilots_faq/

CAP flight instructors may not offer primary instruction generally speaking. Primary instruction may not be offered to non-cadets in CAP aircraft. Regardless, they may not be compensated while offering instruction in CAP aircraft (except in the case stated above if you're a DPE). See below for an excerpt from the FAQ.

CAP does not normally provide primary flight training for members. That said, we do have a lot of members who are also Certified Flight Instructors and often willing to provide training to members at reduced rates. Depending on your locality, CAP members may also have access to military aero clubs and their flight instructors which can be significantly cheaper than going through a normal commercial operation. We have several scholarships that help CAP Cadets obtain a pilot's license. Unfortunately, we do not have any scholarships for adult members. See our scholarships page for details.

Once you have your license, you can fly with CAP CFIs in CAP aircraft to increase your ratings which can also be significantly cheaper than a commercial operation again.

Hope this helps! I can answer more specific questions or direct you to the right folks - PM me.

Edit - if you are interested in volunteering to give primary flight instruction to cadets, check this out:

http://jfacap.usafaux.us/

I know people who go every year, and they certainly love it.

 

[mscard88]

It mentions flight training at reduced rates. Does that mean instructor fee, or reduced rate in the plane, assuming everyone is a member?

I do have expenses keeping current as a CFI so I'm not sure I want to give away my services. That said, I'm not a time builder or trying to get rich flying. I'm retired from the USAF and an airline so that's all done with, EXCEPT the rich part!

 

[murphey]

That's what I thought but then I used the term adult so the OP would not think I was referring to a geriatric unit.

The unit I'm in is often referred to as "A Very Senior, Senior Squadron".

 

[murphey]

Unless you're under 18, this need not affect you at all. There is no senior drill, and the uniform business is substantially looser. You can opt never to wear an Air Force uniform. If you happen to have cadets at your squadron, it's nice to learn how to return a salute, so the cadets don't feel like dweebs when they salute you. About as far as it goes is that you need to respect others' choices that might be different, such as not screwing around during colors -- some people have rather strong feelings about that. You will get some training in "customs and courtesies," which really is nice to know even if it's not your thing. FWIW, it really isn't mine, and while I've found several people who really are into that, I've never found anyone who insisted I address them by rank, for instance.

And you're not too old.

I've been promoted twice, and only learned about it when I was doing the monthly reports (Wing IT/Web geek here). No one in our unit has any interest rank.

Only time I saw everyone in a complete uniform was for the funeral of our oldest member (50 yr CAP member, too). Even the wing top mucky-mucks were there in full dress. The family & church members were totally blown away at the number of attendees, not just CAP in uniform. They had no clue about his involvement in various aviation organizations.

 

[ChrisK]

It mentions flight training at reduced rates. Does that mean instructor fee, or reduced rate in the plane, assuming everyone is a member?

Use of CAP aircraft in CAP operations are covered by this regulation:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R060_001_E70E3BAE1C0D4.pdf

No charge may be made by any person for any ground instruction, flight training, or flight evaluations accomplished in accordance with this regulation, except FAA designated examiner fees for issuance of an FAA pilot certificate or rating.

2-8 has several specific circumstances for flight instruction, but what it boils down to is that CAP wants to prevent people from joining the organization simply to obtain a primary rating.

CAP cadets and qualified SAR/DR mission pilots are authorized to use CAP airplanes for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating.

I think that the FAQ item I quoted really means:

1. There are CAP members who are also flight instructors
2. Flight instructors who are CAP members often teach at local flight schools or otherwise provide instruction outside of CAP
3. CAP member flight instructors who instruct locally may be willing to offer a discount to CAP members

In terms of CAP flying, rated and evaluated pilots or cadets can use CAP aircraft at cost, and instructors who are CAP members can volunteer their time to teach pilot candidates or cadets. Incidentally, CAP flight instructors who teach at local flight schools or offer instruction locally can certainly offer services to interested CAP members outside of the program, effectively using the program as a venue to find students; however, you will find that CAP rated pilots usually do not pay for instruction or evaluation from CAP instructors, and that such payment is specifically prohibited in CAP aircraft as noted above.

 

[Sundancer]

I really think it's a bad idea to do this to instructors, but it is not allowed to use a CAP aircraft for commercial purposes, including flight instruction. The ONLY exception is for a DPE giving a practical test.

Honestly, I'd like to pay instructors for time not required by CAP. It would help alleviate the constant instructor shortages, and it seems only fair.

I can't speak for the Air Force paperwork, but honestly, the load isn't that bad. It's more than a flying club, but not a lot more. Yes, I have to do a Form 71 inspection every once in a while, but that takes like 5 minutes and it's a subset of preflight. There is some dispatch-like "paperwork" to be done before and after a flight, but it's a website (WMIRS). Basically, you have to say who and what's on the airplane, where you're going, what your schedule is, do a weight and balance, and a risk assessment. Afterward, you have to record your hobbs and tach, plus fuel/oil and results if it's reimbursed (otherwise no one cares). It's not THAT different from what I do on a family flight -- someone on the ground always gets informed about schedule; if it isn't a release officer or air ops branch director, it's a family member.

WMIRS seems modeled after a part 135 operation, but CAP is very careful not to call it "dispatch," presumably for liability reasons. Flight release is an authorization to use the aircraft, not a safety function (though they will call AFRCC if you're overdue by more than two hours).

There must be some paperwork for a mission. There just has to be a way to communicate your results up the chain so the planning section can do their thing. Otherwise, your effort will get wasted as it gets duplicated over and over.

I'd respond that the load is variable - sometimes it could be fairly minor, especially if you were paying. Or, it could require mutiple phone calls and emails, over several days, and it was not/not uncommon to spend more time on phone, email, and a truly wretched "dispatch" web site than time spent flying. A lot more on many occasions.

But, if you get connected, some of that goat rope does get reduced - if you're wired into the network/clique, more opportunities to fly come up, with a bit less hassle.

 

[weilke]

For a flight that you pay for it takes 5min to put the flight into WMRS, and a phonecall to the release officer.
For funded flying, it may require a lot more. But then, you get a $200/hr aircraft for free for however many hours your event takes.

 

[airdale]

... if you're wired into the network/clique, more opportunities to fly come up, with a bit less hassle.

The "old boys network" has both advantages and disadvantages for the organization. The advantages include people (women too) with known capability, known reliability, and known availability. The disadvantage, though, is not trivial -- it is the perception by non-network members that there is favoritism. I'm not sure that there is a way to resolve this.

As an Air Branch Director on a training or an actual mission, the sorties I am releasing are assigned various tasks. Some of the tasks are more difficult than others. I consciously assign the more difficult tasks to air crews that I know are experienced and capable. Crews I don't know and trust do not get these tasks. Same-o if I am working from home and need an air crew, I first call the guys I know and trust. I know this is not "fair" to guys I don't know but I do it for the good of the mission and for safety.

Example: A county sheriff called us for help on a missing person search. The weather was very marginal. We were actually running a training mission at the time and I had several aircraft to choose from. My instructions to the chosen air crew were: "Call me for a release when you're willing to go take a look." The reason was this: I knew that the guys in the front seats were experienced CFIIs and the PF was a PhD meteorologist & a full professor in the aviation dept. at a local college. No way am I going to make a higher quality weather decision than those guys. Had it been an air crew that I did not know, I probably would have held them until every field in the area was at least MVFR, just as a matter of safety. So, the old boys won another one that day.

When the old boys also monopolize the easy stuff, like ferrying airplanes, that is not very defensible though.

 

[Sundancer]

The "old boys network" has both advantages and disadvantages for the organization. The advantages include people (women too) with known capability, known reliability, and known availability. The disadvantage, though, is not trivial -- it is the perception by non-network members that there is favoritism. I'm not sure that there is a way to resolve this.

As an Air Branch Director on a training or an actual mission, the sorties I am releasing are assigned various tasks. Some of the tasks are more difficult than others. I consciously assign the more difficult tasks to air crews that I know are experienced and capable. Crews I don't know and trust do not get these tasks. Same-o if I am working from home and need an air crew, I first call the guys I know and trust. I know this is not "fair" to guys I don't know but I do it for the good of the mission and for safety.

Example: A county sheriff called us for help on a missing person search. The weather was very marginal. We were actually running a training mission at the time and I had several aircraft to choose from. My instructions to the chosen air crew were: "Call me for a release when you're willing to go take a look." The reason was this: I knew that the guys in the front seats were experienced CFIIs and the PF was a PhD meteorologist & a full professor in the aviation dept. at a local college. No way am I going to make a higher quality weather decision than those guys. Had it been an air crew that I did not know, I probably would have held them until every field in the area was at least MVFR, just as a matter of safety. So, the old boys won another one that day.

When the old boys also monopolize the easy stuff, like ferrying airplanes, that is not very defensible though.

I've heard this perspective before, and it has merit, but only to a degree; My squadron lost a CFII and ATP, 'cause we were some distance from the clique; after a couple years, he "figured it out" (as did another four or five us) and moved on. It works until it doesn't, when a wing can't get enough hours on the airplanes to retain them, or can't surge for any length of time.

And frankly, the clique isn't composed totally of stealy-eyed experienced MPs, as you described - it's a closed group with a spread of expereince, and the routine is to "reward" those folks within the inner-circle. Plenty of better qualified MPs are cut out regularly.

There may be a reason you don't "know" the other crews - you aren't using them. Honestly, if they have the quals, maybe you oughta trust the checkride process, and not rely on your incomplete personal inventory of people's skills.

I know, to a fair certainty, that this kind of "management" lost my former squadron five MPs (and an airplane).

 

[airdale]

I don't think we disagree, at least not very much. I think you are reinforcing my last point, which I maybe should have emphasized more. The nature of organizations that do not produce measurable outputs IMO is that they inevitably become political. CAP is no exception. And that leads to the "clique" situation that does have the in-crowd getting flying time that could and should be spread around to everyone. You are absolutely right on that and I don't mean to be defending it.

My point about running missions and SAREXs was a little different. Everyone flies. Everyone gets tasks. And I try to understand everyone's capabilities. But for safety and effectiveness reasons, I feel I have to assign difficult tasks to air crews whose capabilities I know. And that is arguably unfair to crews that I don't know. When I am launching maybe 40 sorties a day, which is not unusual, I don't have time to research resumes.

I'll give you a SAREX example: The training task scenario was that an aircraft had found some simulated wreckage in an open field in a somewhat populated area. Their job was to lead a ground team to the site. The catch was that radios had failed and they had to lead by using standard air maneuvers per the book. So here I have an airplane at 1000' AGL in a lightly populated area doing low speed maneuvers with, possibly, everyone in the airplane distracted by trying to see what the ground team van is doing. No way am I going to gamble on an unknown crew for that one. i tasked a guy I had confidence in as pilot and IIRC had another pilot in the right seat.

But outside that narrow slice of operations, you are absolutely right that "cliques" form in politicized organizations and they discourage and drive away good people. (I don't think CAP is at all unique in that respect BTW.) Ideally, a wing would keep track of who is getting free non-mission flying and make sure that it is equitably distributed.

 

[N801BH]

I don't think we disagree, at least not very much. I think you are reinforcing my last point, which I maybe should have emphasized more. The nature of organizations that do not produce measurable outputs IMO is that they inevitably become political. CAP is no exception. And that leads to the "clique" situation that does have the in-crowd getting flying time that could and should be spread around to everyone. You are absolutely right on that and I don't mean to be defending it.

My point about running missions and SAREXs was a little different. Everyone flies. Everyone gets tasks. And I try to understand everyone's capabilities. But for safety and effectiveness reasons, I feel I have to assign difficult tasks to air crews whose capabilities I know. And that is arguably unfair to crews that I don't know. When I am launching maybe 40 sorties a day, which is not unusual, I don't have time to research resumes.

I'll give you a SAREX example: The training task scenario was that an aircraft had found some simulated wreckage in an open field in a somewhat populated area. Their job was to lead a ground team to the site. The catch was that radios had failed and they had to lead by using standard air maneuvers per the book. So here I have an airplane at 1000' AGL in a lightly populated area doing low speed maneuvers with, possibly, everyone in the airplane distracted by trying to see what the ground team van is doing. No way am I going to gamble on an unknown crew for that one. i tasked a guy I had confidence in as pilot and IIRC had another pilot in the right seat.

But outside that narrow slice of operations, you are absolutely right that "cliques" form in politicized organizations and they discourage and drive away good people. (I don't think CAP is at all unique in that respect BTW.) Ideally, a wing would keep track of who is getting free non-mission flying and make sure that it is equitably distributed.

Such a simple fix to cure the "clique" problem that permeates CAP...

Care to expand on why national has not demanded it included in the CAP structure/ culture?

 

[denverpilot]

I always thought the most effective way to do a lot of clique busting was to actually use the computer tools to automatically schedule mission and training flights.

If you're training "interchangeable" crewmembers and playing like your training and evaluation system is actually up to snuff (meaning you also MUST "wash out" people), automating aircrew assignments shoudn't be any real problem at all.

Put in your availability/flight requests, and the system spits out your crew names.

But... That said... I've been a MS in the back seat of an airplane that I said I would never get in and fly behind that pilot again, because someone dropped the ball checking him out or just let him slide with minimum standards and he got complacent and wasn't even performing to those. Both the MO and I had to give reminders on the intercom for things like "engine has been over temp and flashing on the MFD for a while, Pilot".

Which leads to a need for peer evaluation.

And both an automated schedule system and any peer evaluation system would be totally gamed by people.

So the onus really falls back on the check pilots, and a fairly weak standard to hit. If you can't fly a Form 5, you shoudn't be signed off on a BFR either. The hardest part of a Form 5 is dealing with the massive distraction of learning and filing the paperwork.

 

[airdale]

... Care to expand on why national has not demanded it included in the CAP structure/ culture?

Generally IMO CAP does a poor job of personnel development. They have a lot of "furniture" in the form of available classes (SLS, etc.) and awards/rewards but in the end it seems to be all based on personal initiative. No one is really encouraged or discouraged from pursuing any position.

In any decent-size for-profit corporation there are secret "talent lists" and the management chain's annual goals include identification and development of talented individuals. That's pretty tough to do in a volunteer organization where the management jobs are often filled by people without any management experience and the reward system has no sticks and only a few carrots. And, if you want to hear people screaming about "favoritism" just implement a talent list system.

To the specific idea of tracking, it is very do-able. They actually already have all the data in the WMIRS system. It would just be a matter of designing a report. But to do things right IMO it would have to be part of a broad and proactive personnel development system.

Re Nate's comments, I too have "been a MS in the back seat of an airplane that I said I would never get in and fly behind that pilot again ..." Maybe that's why I am never going to be randomly assigning tasks to air crews.

Re "washing out" that's pretty tough in a volunteer organization. But I will say that there is one pilot in our wing (CFI, actually) that will NEVER be PIC in an aircraft that I release on a SAREX or an actual mission.

 

[mscard88]

I think I'll just stay away from the CAP. Doesn't sound like an organization I want to deal with. Thanks all for the info.

 

[oregonboy109]

Do they really serve a purpose anymore? ELTs are more advanced now and besides the cadet/education aspect is doesn't seem like they really do all that much... Maybe one of the CAP regulars on here can enlighten me about this.

 

[ChrisK]

Do they really serve a purpose anymore? ELTs are more advanced now and besides the cadet/education aspect is doesn't seem like they really do all that much... Maybe one of the CAP regulars on here can enlighten me about this.

ELT searches have dropped off but are still done.

Here's a copy of the last CAP report to congress:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_financial_report_2014_web_small_DAF2B2CE7FA34.pdf

You will see in the report that, while there remains a big focus on youth and education, the primary focus is on disaster relief, and homeland security (air defense fighter training) gets a big honorable mention.

Communications has also gotten a huge bump over the last couple of years.

In any event, this report is how Civil Air Patrol justifies and explains to Congress how money is spent and what / how missions have received priority.

 

[Maverick]

Do they really serve a purpose anymore? ELTs are more advanced now and besides the cadet/education aspect is doesn't seem like they really do all that much... Maybe one of the CAP regulars on here can enlighten me about this.

I would say that depends on what you would consider worthwhile. From my own experience I can say this. During the five years that I served as the commander of a cadet squadron I had one cadet that went on to the Air Force Academy and the last I heard he was flying F15s. I wrote one of his recommendation letters.

I had three cadets who earned the highest award in the cadet program. One that the final exams for were given by the Air Force Liaison officer not anyone in the CAP. One of those three is still serving in the CAP to this day as an adult and rose to become the Wing Commander. He has never served in the military but has been very successful in civilian life and has given a lot back to the program that he felt was important in his own personal development. I can't begin to tell you how proud I am of him and what he has accomplished in both his personal life and the Civil Air Patrol. There were many others that I feel benefited from their experience in the cadet program.

In states that have large unpopulated areas, such as Alaska, the CAP performs an important function for SAR missions. That, in itself, is much more cost effective than using military aircraft alone to search large areas. That type of search is better conducted by small, slower moving aircraft. The CAP is also dedicated to disaster relief activities.

I feel these are all important functions that serve a definite purpose.

 

[N801BH]

I think I'll just stay away from the CAP. Doesn't sound like an organization I want to deal with. Thanks all for the info.

Smart move sir......

I went back and re-read ALL the pages of this thread.... I see now I was VERY vocal and maybe over the top.... but I am passionate about helping fellow humans. And when I see a failure to do that I get on a mission..

Also, the link I provided in post#30 is invalid since BackCountryPilots now does not allow viewing of that thread over there without joining....

And that particular crash is the one that put the icing on the cake for me to seriously question the CAP..

For all the newbies here who didn't get to read what happened. I will give you a quick summary

This is the crash...

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20121202X23953&ntsbno=WPR13FA061&akey=1

As an active member of BCP, we try like hell to assist in helping /saving fellow pilots and were held off from searching by the CAP....

A few days after the crash I got this email out of the blue from someone I don't know...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ben!


I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.


We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly broken.


These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).


1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.

Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!


We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you!


You guy /gals can draw your own conclusions on why I feel the way I do..

 

[DavidWhite]

Bunch of water heads in the CAP

 

[James331]

.... But for safety and effectiveness reasons, I feel I have to assign difficult tasks to air crews whose capabilities I know. And that is arguably unfair to crews that I don't know. When I am launching maybe 40 sorties a day, which is not unusual, I don't have time to research resumes.

I'll give you a SAREX example: The training task scenario was that an aircraft had found some simulated wreckage in an open field in a somewhat populated area. Their job was to lead a ground team to the site. The catch was that radios had failed and they had to lead by using standard air maneuvers per the book. So here I have an airplane at 1000' AGL in a lightly populated area doing low speed maneuvers with, possibly, everyone in the airplane distracted by trying to see what the ground team van is doing. No way am I going to gamble on an unknown crew for that one. i tasked a guy I had confidence in as pilot and IIRC had another pilot in the right seat.

But outside that narrow slice of operations, you are absolutely right that "cliques" form in politicized organizations and they discourage and drive away good people. (I don't think CAP is at all unique in that respect BTW.) Ideally, a wing would keep track of who is getting free non-mission flying and make sure that it is equitably distributed.

It's such a flawed system and CAP looses out on so much talent because of that BS.

If your training and check airman aren't up to snuff fix it, if someone passes your ride and becomes qualified to fly missions they should be able to fly those missions, otherwise why not just stop training folks and only let your friends fly?

I have two check rides every year for work, I'm a ATP CFI and really enjoy teaching and would really enjoy flying and being a part of CAP...IF it was as advertised, sadly it's not and the BS you're talking about is the reason I was only a member for a brief periord of time.


Someone's ether qualified or not, sorry it ain't rocket surgery.

I think I'll just stay away from the CAP. Doesn't sound like an organization I want to deal with. Thanks all for the info.

Good call

 

[James331]

Smart move sir......

I went back and re-read ALL the pages of this thread.... I see now I was VERY vocal and maybe over the top.... but I am passionate about helping fellow humans. And when I see a failure to do that I get on a mission..

Also, the link I provided in post#30 is invalid since BackCountryPilots now does not allow viewing of that thread over there without joining....

And that particular crash is the one that put the icing on the cake for me to seriously question the CAP..

For all the newbies here who didn't get to read what happened. I will give you a quick summary

This is the crash...

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20121202X23953&ntsbno=WPR13FA061&akey=1

As an active member of BCP, we try like hell to assist in helping /saving fellow pilots and were held off from searching by the CAP....

A few days after the crash I got this email out of the blue from someone I don't know...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ben!


I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.


We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly broken.


These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).


1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.

Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!


We will appreciate your efforts to help with this matter. Thank you!


You guy /gals can draw your own conclusions on why I feel the way I do..

Amen!

I remember reading that a while ago, one of the reasons I trust a spot or spidertrax and a few good friends more than "organized" groups.

 

[Maverick]

It's such a flawed system and CAP looses out on so much talent because of that BS.

If your training and check airman aren't up to snuff fix it, if someone passes your ride and becomes qualified to fly missions they should be able to fly those missions, otherwise why not just stop training folks and only let your friends fly?

I have two check rides every year for work, I'm a ATP CFI and really enjoy teaching and would really enjoy flying and being a part of CAP...IF it was as advertised, sadly it's not and the BS you're talking about is the reason I was only a member for a brief periord of time.


Someone's ether qualified or not, sorry it ain't rocket surgery.





Good call

I will be one of the first people to say that the CAP is far from being perfect. The only way a volunteer organization can improve is from the inside by dedicated people who are committed to improving things and cutting through the BS from members who are not performing.

The CAP is not for everyone. I have had to deal with some real jerks during my time with them. That's why I feel that more care should be taken in the recruiting process. Warm bodies being recruited to raise numbers is no effective or good for anyone.

 

[Kritchlow]

Is there a length of commitment if you join, or can you bail after a month if it's not what you thought it was? I hate to bail on anything actually... It just doesn't feel right. That said, any insight on how that's looked at??

 

[James331]

Bail whenever you want, you're a unpaid volunteer in a organization which is infamous for BS, doubt anyone will think poorly of you when you decide to leave after your BS cup runnith over.

 

[ChrisK]

Is there a length of commitment if you join, or can you bail after a month if it's not what you thought it was? I hate to bail on anything actually... It just doesn't feel right. That said, any insight on how that's looked at??

All volunteer, no commitment whatsoever. Membership dues are paid annually. If your membership lapses long enough you have to start over in progression, but that's about it.

 

[OkieAviator]

I would say that depends on what you would consider worthwhile. From my own experience I can say this. During the five years that I served as the commander of a cadet squadron I had one cadet that went on to the Air Force Academy and the last I heard he was flying F15s. I wrote one of his recommendation letters.

I would say that has more to do with an individuals personal drive than a direct cause and effect of being in CAP. Case in point my cousin went to the Air Force Academy and now flies F15s in Idaho... never did CAP. Instead got his discipline from athletics and his passion for flying from genetics.

I have limited experience with CAP but there was a situation that bothers me to the core. Although the make believe ranking structure and military Cosplay component is disturbingly comical.. and the use of tax dollars to fund people personal flying is annoying... it's not what irritates me the most... what does is this type of nonsense... http://www.capvolunteernow.com/highprofile_missions/tornadoes/moore/

No not the silly tagline "Everyday Heroes, Ever Day".... it's the fact that they somehow feel they need to take credit for anything related to the Moore Oklahoma tornado and worse than that to do a write up to pat themselves on the back.

Those that are unfamiliar there was a large AFB in OKC, Tinker AFB... a lot of people stationed or working there live in Moore Oklahoma. In May of 2013 an EF-5 tornado rolled through the city with loss of life and property. Most everyone, especially those connected to Tinker AFB base headed to help with the rescue and clean up efforts. Instead of doing this (Keep in mind they're actually in the Air Force but are wearing uniforms because they most likely just left base)

CAP members decided to go home, put on their outfits and then do this- I saw at least one guy out there in his 'dress blues'... are you kidding me!

And this-

Good job playing dress up to take pictures and then go hang out and look at said pictures. Do you know what someone who just lost a loved one and a place to live doesn't care about... it's pictures of the damage. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that taking 15,000 pictures some how adds value to the situation.

Before witnessing CAP in action I put them up there with the Boy Scouts... It's not my thing but if others are into it then each there own. However after seeing what their disaster support consisted of.. I consider the organization a complete joke.

 

[Maverick]

In response to some of the very negative things I have read in this thread regarding the Civil Air Patrol I will say this and then I will leave this thread alone. During my involvement with the CAP I have come across those who believe their opinion is the only one that matters. These are often the type who would rather complain than help. Any volunteer organization is only as good as it's member make it. For those who would rather leave the organization rather than work together for everyone's benefit then that's the right choice because those people are not needed in the first place. I ran into my fair share of BS from some members myself. I worked through it and got my part done. I have also seen people put in their place by responsible leadership

There are times when BS in any organization can be frustrating and sometimes difficult to overcome. For those of you who have nothing good to say about the organization I can respect your opinion but I have heard enough.

 

[N801BH]

In response to some of the very negative things I have read in this thread regarding the Civil Air Patrol I will say this and then I will leave this thread alone. During my involvement with the CAP I have come across those who believe their opinion is the only one that matters. These are often the type who would rather complain than help. Any volunteer organization is only as good as it's member make it. For those who would rather leave the organization rather than work together for everyone's benefit then that's the right choice because those people are not needed in the first place. I ran into my fair share of BS from some members myself. I worked through it and got my part done. I have also seen people put in their place by responsible leadership

There are times when BS in any organization can be frustrating and sometimes difficult to overcome. For those of you who have nothing good to say about the organization I can respect your opinion but I have heard enough.

I will help ANYONE to get through a bad time.. For instance....

I witnessed a Fatal plane crash.....

Was the first person to the scene...

Then was hired by the National Park Service to clean up the mess..

Then was hired by the NTSB to recover the wreckage and assist in the investigation....


http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63468&highlight=Sad+day+jackson+hole

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63537




Have you even spent hours pulling tissue, hair and other body stuff out of instrument panel gauges with tweezers so you can read the bent needles to confirm the plane hit at 168 mph, 71 degrees nose down with the motor at 610 rpm......

Been there, done that,,, And had to burn my bloody clothes after those three days of digging through that biological nightmare...


Ps.... To this day, neither the Park service or the NTSB has NOT paid me a dime, altho I did send several bills....

So I guess that makes me a volunteer..... again...

 

[paflyer]

As an active member of BCP, we try like hell to assist in helping /saving fellow pilots and were held off from searching by the CAP....

I don't see where the groups that wanted to help were prevented from conducting their own search, especially if they felt the "official" one was ineffective and was looking in the wrong place.

The only legal way for that to happen, I'd guess, is a TFR.

 

[N801BH]

I don't see where the groups that wanted to help were prevented from conducting their own search, especially if they felt the "official" one was ineffective and was looking in the wrong place.

The only legal way for that to happen, I'd guess, is a TFR.

The CAP has since learned from that fiasco.....

NOW they put up TFR's over crash sites.....

 

[James331]

The CAP has since learned from that fiasco.....

NOW they put up TFR's over crash sites.....

So now you have to ether trust the CAP will find your friends, or risk getting caught busting a TFR.

 

[ChrisK]

The CAP has since learned from that fiasco.....

NOW they put up TFR's over crash sites.....

You mean, once they locate them?

They don't TFR a route of flight...

 

[N801BH]

You mean, once they locate them?

They don't TFR a route of flight...

Nope... It is where they want to post a TFR.....