Open letter to the corp jet jock that tried to blame me for an airspace violation

[Patch]

So the final approach is anything north of PWK I guess that means we need visit Green Bay before we turn south for the Chicago lakefront route. I thought the "enhanced Class B" went away 6 weeks afetr 9/11 but maybe I was misinformed.

Look at the plate. You've got a remain within 10 for the procedure track. Stay outside of that and away from those altitudes (+/- 500 ft) and you're fine. Flying within 100' of a published altitude across a known final approach path is just not a good thing to do. How accurate is your altimeter?

 

[mikea]

Look at the plate. You've got a remain within 10 for the procedure track. Stay outside of that and away from those altitudes (+/- 500 ft) and you're fine. Flying within 100' of a published altitude across a known final approach path is just not a good thing to do. How accurate is your altimeter?

I'm a VFR pilot. What plate am I supposed to look at?

 

[mikea]

Yes, I flew out of New Orleans for two years. We had a VFR corridor and almost always had flight following. Not exactly chicago, but still bravo airspace.

I fly in Chicago. What is this word, "flight following" you use?

 

[ScottM]

You're right. You have every right to tool through the final approach course.

I did not tool through the final approach course I was below. Glide slope capture happens south of where I was at. This aircraft was well below glide slope. It was not a close call, it was just a weasel thing for him to try and blame me for being in class D airspace at the time.

 

[ScottM]

I fly in Chicago. What is this word, "flight following" you use?

I read about that once a long time ago. Apparently some ATC TRACONS will actually want to talk to FLIBs, imagine that

 

[ScottM]

Look at the plate. You've got a remain within 10 for the procedure track. Stay outside of that and away from those altitudes (+/- 500 ft) and you're fine. Flying within 100' of a published altitude across a known final approach path is just not a good thing to do. How accurate is your altimeter?

You might also want to review the rules on how high AGL you must be over congested areas

 

[Patch]

I did not tool through the final approach course I was below. Glide slope capture happens south of where I was at. This aircraft was well below glide slope. It was not a close call, it was just a weasel thing for him to try and blame me for being in class D airspace at the time.

What altitude would you say he was at?

 

[EdFred]

No, I would not say an ILS is final approach to land. I believe there is a court ruling indicating that final and traffic pattern are only considered that inside the airport environment. Scott wasn't even in the Delta airspace. No, he was not on "final".

 

[Patch]

I'm a VFR pilot. What plate am I supposed to look at?

Good point. Never considered that. Although how much more out of your way would it be to stay clear of the ORD 15 nm ring and fly higher?

 

[Patch]

No, I would not say an ILS is final approach to land. I believe there is a court ruling indicating that final and traffic pattern are only considered that inside the airport environment. Scott wasn't even in the Delta airspace. No, he was not on "final".

VOR to FAF is 1.3 DME. GS intercept is probably 1.0-1.1 DME south of the VOR. I'm guessing the guy was configured 3-5 nm prior to the FAF so 2-3 DME north of the VOR. How is that not a less maneuverable aircraft that's on final? Do you think the guys in the jet knew the difference of where the Delta started vs where they were while on ILS final?

 

[EdFred]

VOR to FAF is 1.3 DME. GS intercept is probably 1.0-1.1 DME south of the VOR. I'm guessing the guy was configured 3-5 nm prior to the FAF so 2-3 DME north of the VOR. How is that not a less maneuverable aircraft that's on final? Do you think the guys in the jet knew the difference of where the Delta started vs where they were while on ILS final?

I'm not going to figure or guess about anything the corp pilot may or may not have done. He was outside the D airspace. If I call a 50 mile final, does that mean every one has to get out of the way for the next 50 miles? Not hardly. 20 miles? No. 10 miles? Maybe INSIDE Charlie airspace which I'm most likely going to get vectored by ATC anyway. Scott was not in the airport environment, and neither was the corporate jet. Scott had right of way.

 

[jesse]

Do you think the guys in the jet knew the difference of where the Delta started vs where they were while on ILS final?

Do you think every pilot knows about the approach and ILS? Or how to read an approach plate? Or even thinks about anything instrument? Or even talks on the radio. Or even.......

 

[mikea]

Good point. Never considered that. Although how much more out of your way would it be to stay clear of the ORD 15 nm ring and fly higher?

No problem if I moved my plane to Kenosha.

 

[mikea]

VOR to FAF is 1.3 DME. GS intercept is probably 1.0-1.1 DME south of the VOR. I'm guessing the guy was configured 3-5 nm prior to the FAF so 2-3 DME north of the VOR. How is that not a less maneuverable aircraft that's on final? Do you think the guys in the jet knew the difference of where the Delta started vs where they were while on ILS final?

Maybe they should look at the plate.

 

[KennyFlys]

I've said before I believe private pilot students should have six hours rather than the current three hours of hood time on instruments. You folks make a good case for a PP student have basic interpretation of approaches and know what kind of atmosphere he/she may be headed into, particularly around busier airspace.

 

[bbchien]

Scott, Sunday was a VMC day and they were landing visuals to 16 at PWK.

North of OBK there is no way to claim he was on final.

And I agree that FF has to be looked up in the book by the controllers, it's been Sooo long since they have done it.

Bruce

 

[mikea]

I've said before I believe private pilot students should have six hours rather than the current three hours of hood time on instruments. You folks make a good case for a PP student have basic interpretation of approaches and know what kind of atmosphere he/she may be headed into, particularly around busier airspace.

My instructor took me out to the instrument approach waypoints so I would know what pilots on instrument approaches were talking about when they gave those "on Alpha approach" calls.

As for that area north of Palwaukee. I wandered there once when I was cleared for solo. I saw the long line of planes going north to south and did a quick 180 out of there. When I told my CFI he said that was what you can expect and I learned a lesson.

I do keep my head on a swivel there. I did a wing wag recognition with a plane slightly above me once.

BTW, I can understand an approach plate. I taught myself. I just don't carry them.

 

[ejensen]

I'll quote the right of way rules Jesse quoted earlier:



I'd say ILS final is final approach to land, no?

How far out is a final, 10 miles, 20??

 

[EdFred]

How far out is a final, 10 miles, 20??

I don't know if there is an official ruling, but there was a court decision that said 2 (maybe it was 3) miles was considered part of the traffic pattern. Maybe we need to go to the METAR/TAF and use them to infer that <5sm is the airport environment, and 5-10 is in the vicinity, but not the environment. So, I guess a good RoT would be anything outside of 4nm is not considered part of the traffic pattern, and therefore not considered "on final". Hmmm, 4nm, that number seems familiar for some reason..... But, I'm not Counsel to make that decision.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I did not tool through the final approach course I was below. Glide slope capture happens south of where I was at. This aircraft was well below glide slope. It was not a close call, it was just a weasel thing for him to try and blame me for being in class D airspace at the time.

Hel-lo! Everything else was a side issue.

 

[Everskyward]

I say there's not enough information here to make any kind of judgment. No one knows what altitude the jet was assigned. Normally the final vector results in you intercepting the glide slope from below. That's how it's supposed to happen in any case.

Why does it have to be someone's fault, anyway? See and avoid is far from perfect, although it seemed like it worked in this situation, maybe aided by TCAS. The parting shot on the radio was uncalled for. He could have said that he had the traffic in sight without trying to ding the other pilot, but other that that, things seem to have worked out the way they should.

 

[Patch]

I'm not going to figure or guess about anything the corp pilot may or may not have done. He was outside the D airspace. If I call a 50 mile final, does that mean every one has to get out of the way for the next 50 miles? Not hardly. 20 miles? No. 10 miles? Maybe INSIDE Charlie airspace which I'm most likely going to get vectored by ATC anyway. Scott was not in the airport environment, and neither was the corporate jet. Scott had right of way.

It has nothing to do with the airport environment, it's maneuverability. What you're not understanding is that not every aircraft flies a 2 mile VFR straight in. On an instrument approach, you could be on a 10 mile final with the gear hanging. So who's more maneuverable? A jet doing 3 miles/minute with everything hanging or a piper cruising around?

The intent of the rule is for the less maneuverable aircraft to have right of way.

 

[jesse]

It has nothing to do with the airport environment, it's maneuverability. What you're not understanding is that not every aircraft flies a 2 mile VFR straight in. On an instrument approach, you could be on a 10 mile final with the gear hanging. So who's more maneuverable? A jet doing 3 miles/minute with everything hanging or a piper cruising around?

The intent of the rule is for the less maneuverable aircraft to have right of way.

You don't get it. There isn't always a better option. There is a reason it's called see and avoid. Sometimes you have to fly through areas that another airplane will be flying through. This is what VFR is all about.

Scott was ****ed because the guy was an asshat and tried to say he was in airspace he wasn't.

 

[Patch]

I don't know if there is an official ruling, but there was a court decision that said 2 (maybe it was 3) miles was considered part of the traffic pattern. Maybe we need to go to the METAR/TAF and use them to infer that <5sm is the airport environment, and 5-10 is in the vicinity, but not the environment. So, I guess a good RoT would be anything outside of 4nm is not considered part of the traffic pattern, and therefore not considered "on final". Hmmm, 4nm, that number seems familiar for some reason..... But, I'm not Counsel to make that decision.

A good rule of thumb would be if crossing the final approach course of a larger airport (Class D), assume an instrument approach and stay at least 10 nm away from the field if flying VFR underneath the airspace.

 

[Patch]

You don't get it. There isn't always a better option. There is a reason it's called see and avoid. Sometimes you have to fly through areas that another airplane will be flying through. This is what VFR is all about.

Yet the other guy had filed IFR. I understand full well that VFR requires your cranium to be on a swivel. I also understand that there's nothing preventing you from flying in these areas, but I am suggesting that you have a little SA and not be "that guy" who does that sort of thing. It's a poor decision to fly through the final approach course of an ILS final.

It's also not advisable to assume the right of way when facing a less maneuverable aircraft.

Scott was ****ed because the guy was an asshat and tried to say he was in airspace he wasn't.

Are you saying you wouldn't be mad if you had to discontinue an approach because you nearly speared someone on final with your nose cone?

 

[EdFred]

Yet the other guy had filed IFR. I understand full well that VFR requires your cranium to be on a swivel. I also understand that there's nothing preventing you from flying in these areas, but I am suggesting that you have a little SA and not be "that guy" who does that sort of thing. It's a poor decision to fly through the final approach course of an ILS final.

It's also not advisable to assume the right of way when facing a less maneuverable aircraft.


Are you saying you wouldn't be mad if you had to discontinue an approach because you nearly speared someone on final with your nose cone?

IFR doesn't give you any right of way over a VFR craft. Let me guess, you're the ****ed off corporate pilot?

 

[EdFred]

A good rule of thumb would be if crossing the final approach course of a larger airport (Class D), assume an instrument approach and stay at least 10 nm away from the field if flying VFR underneath the airspace.

Here's a good rule of thumb. Don't **** off airport managers.

 

[Patch]

IFR doesn't give you any right of way over a VFR craft. Let me guess, you're the ****ed off corporate pilot?

No it doesn't, but being VFR doesn't give you a license to be oblivious.

And no, I'm not the ****ed off corporate pilot. I just see the other side of this.

 

[Patch]

Here's a good rule of thumb. Don't **** off airport managers.

Huh?

 

[jason]

Boy, Patch, you know how to jump right in and make friends, don't you?

A lot of us here have met Scott and know him. I can't imagine him ever being as reckless as you describe in your posts above. Just the fact that you tell all of us little VFR flyers to avoid your instrument paths by 10 miles just because there is the possibility that you might be coming in tells me you don't spend a lot of time looking out the windows.

 

[gismo]

I'll quote the right of way rules Jesse quoted earlier:



I'd say ILS final is final approach to land, no?

Actually, I'd say no when we're talking about a 5+ mile final. If I fly a straight in from 30 miles out I don't expect any traffic crossing from my right to give way. The right of way given to aircraft on final is intended to affect other traffic in the pattern, not cross country flights well outside the airport traffic area.

 

[Patch]

Actually, I'd say no when we're talking about a 5+ mile final. If I fly a straight in from 30 miles out I don't expect any traffic crossing from my right to give way. The right of way given to aircraft on final is intended to affect other traffic in the pattern, not cross country flights well outside the airport traffic area.

You're not understanding the scope here. You can't really compare a 30 mile straight in with a fixed gear aircraft with a complex/high performance aircraft.

Most ILS finals put you about 10 miles out. At 3 miles per minute, that happens fairly quickly. A turbine powered aircraft like the corporate jet isn't the most maneuverable with the gear and flaps hanging. At 5-7 miles, it's just like a cessna on 2 mile final.

You just can't compare the two and say the distances should be interchangeable. If the aircraft is configured and on final (at any distance), you should give way. It really doesn't matter who has the legal definition (which I'd still argue is the guy on the ILS final having not seen evidence otherwise) right of way. If you're doing the cross country and he's configured on final approach to landing, you're in a better position to get out of the way.

 

[Patch]

Boy, Patch, you know how to jump right in and make friends, don't you?

Am I smoking crack here? I am not intending to **** anyone off, but I don't agree that the incident here is completely one sided.

A lot of us here have met Scott and know him. I can't imagine him ever being as reckless as you describe in your posts above. Just the fact that you tell all of us little VFR flyers to avoid your instrument paths by 10 miles just because there is the possibility that you might be coming in tells me you don't spend a lot of time looking out the windows.

On the contrary, I spend a lot of time looking for birds/planes/etc. I just don't think it's advisable to fly through the approach paths of faster, less maneuverable aircraft.

 

[ScottM]

Are you saying you wouldn't be mad if you had to discontinue an approach because you nearly speared someone on final with your nose cone?

I certainly would not try to blame having to break that approach off on the other by trumping up a BS reason.

It was a CAVU day and I know, as I was listening to approach that he was cleared for the visual. But if he was like others in that situation he was following the ILS as it is the easiest way into an area that is difficult to see runways (dense urban/suburban). I fly that area a lot and that day it was a Coast Guard Air Patrol mission to the lake front so going the long way round to get the lake was wasting time, fuel, and tax dollars. Plus crossing at OBK to the east is the common VFR route, it is even on the TAC chart. My altitude was below the ILS and still high enough to meet the FAA ground clearance requirements. Considering that the floor of the Class B right there is 3000MSL and that traffic into PWK on the ILS 16 is descending to 2300 right there it is better to be below the approach course.

When I saw him he was about 2 miles away and climbing through what appeared to be my altitude. I think he just got a little low, saw me or got the TCAS ping and freaked out a little bit. As he started his climb is when ATC notified him of my presence, that warning should have maybe come earlier, but as I said it was CAVU and it is both of our jobs to stay separated.

All was fine until I heard him start to blame it all on me being in the class D, which I was not even close to. That tells me that he is either big weeny who was trying to CYA or he did not have a clue as to where he really was and is a bad pilot.

The rest of this argument is just fluff.

 

[jason]

On the contrary, I spend a lot of time looking for birds/planes/etc. I just don't think it's advisable to fly through the approach paths of faster, less maneuverable aircraft.

Two points that have been made, but I guess they need to be repeated.

1. In and around Chicago (where the controllers won't talk to you) there aren't a lot of options. Especially under the Bravo shelf.
2. Scott wasn't mad about anything other than the fact that the corp jockey told ATC that he was inside of the airspace. He had no idea where Scott was, and the fact that he tried to tattle on him to controllers that he already knows aren't very understanding of the FLIBs is uncalled for.

 

[ScottM]

I just don't think it's advisable to fly through the approach paths of faster, less maneuverable aircraft.

I was not flying through his approach path, as has been stated many times I was well below the minimum altitude for that approach. Since the AC I was flying was also certified for IFR flight and met the requirements of part 91 the altimeter was not going to be off by a hundred or more feet. I use the altimeter setting of PWK after take off when I obtain their ATIS.

 

[gprellwitz]

Scott,
As I understand it, you were 100' below the lowest altitude he would have been cleared for, since pilots generally cleared to intercept the glideslope inside the FAF. The glideslope intercept altitude is 2278' (from memory), and the altitude he'd have been cleared for was 2300', the altitude at the OBK VOR. You've already stated that you were North of that at all times. Did I get all that right?

 

[tonycondon]

Here's a good rule of thumb. Don't **** off airport managers.

ooo I got another one : Don't look directly into the sun!!!

 

[mikea]

ooo I got another one : Don't look directly into the sun!!!

Don't tug on Superman's cape.
Don't spit into the wind.
Don't pull the mask off of the Lone Ranger.
Never lie down with a woman who has more problems than you...

 

[bbchien]

Am I smoking crack here? I am not intending to **** anyone off, but I don't agree that the incident here is completely one sided.

On the contrary, I spend a lot of time looking for birds/planes/etc. I just don't think it's advisable to fly through the approach paths of faster, less maneuverable aircraft.

Patch, I used to fly some really heavy aircraft. 132,000 pounds to be exact. In this sort of airspace (the old Glenview Naval Airstation) we were always on the lookout for the light guys. It was see and avoid and we knew what that meant.

If you fly out of PWK you know that there is NO OTHER WAY for the "flivvers" to get out- except to cross West to East NORTH of OBK. The comment by the Lear pilot was, way outta line. You go around....so what. You push the handles forward and the boss pays for fuel and time. Even if you're coming down the GS in VMC (which this guy was not). Everybody lives.

ATC only has responibility of IFR to IFR separation. The rest is beween pilots, and the corp guy at 2300....if Scott was beyond the VOR, he was a least a mile beyond CUTEY. See and avoid means just that. Both parties.