Best way to lose altitude

tehmightypirate

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TehMightyPirate
So approaching my home field with it's 2 mile runway I started my descent a little late from 5,500 ft. I had a great tailwind and did a fast cruise descent near the yellow arc so that didn't help either. To make it even worse the tower had another plane coming in on the ILS and told me to head directly for the numbers and keep it in close. Thankfully I wanted to land long as I park on the other side of the field so there wasn't anything truly bad about this.

The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field. My solution was to enter a slip and pull up (e.g. hit the brakes), dump in 30 degrees flaps, and then enter a steep descent at around 70 knots. Bounced the landing and was generally unimpressed with myself for the sloppy approach.

So, long question short: what's the best way to lose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)
 
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So approaching my home field with it's 2 mile runway I started my descent a little late from 5,500 ft. I had a great tailwind and did a fast cruise descent near the yellow arc so that didn't help either. To make it even worse the tower had another plane coming in on the ILS and told me to head directly for the numbers and keep it in close. Thankfully I wanted to land long as I park on the other side of the field so there wasn't anything truly bad about this.

The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field. My solution was to enter a slip and pull up (e.g. hit the brakes), dump in 30 degrees flaps, and then enter a steep descent at around 70 knots. Bounced the landing and was generally unimpressed with myself for the sloppy approach.

So, long question short: what's the best way to loose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)

One word......'

UNABLE.....
 
Depends what you're flying, but when I want a steep decent in an airplane, it's slow down and slip with full control deflection. In your situation, I'd have probably gone around.
 
So approaching my home field with it's 2 mile runway I started my descent a little late from 5,500 ft. I had a great tailwind and did a fast cruise descent near the yellow arc so that didn't help either. To make it even worse the tower had another plane coming in on the ILS and told me to head directly for the numbers and keep it in close. Thankfully I wanted to land long as I park on the other side of the field so there wasn't anything truly bad about this.

The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field. My solution was to enter a slip and pull up (e.g. hit the brakes), dump in 30 degrees flaps, and then enter a steep descent at around 70 knots. Bounced the landing and was generally unimpressed with myself for the sloppy approach.

So, long question short: what's the best way to loose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)

Power to the back of the green, pitch a healthy margin shy of VNE, use mixture to keep the EGTs good, no more than 1 degree per 3 seconds.

I just time my descents, piston I target for 500FPM, turboprops 1000FPM. With most every pilot having access to some form of GPS with a ETA readout, it's rather easy.
 
Pull power,10 on the flaps and slip. Works for me.
 
S turns, pitch for airspeed, throttle for altitude.
How'd the slips with flaps work out? Never tried it myself.
Full flaps and a slow airspeed, a 172 should drop out of the sky.
 
Very steep banks dump a lot of lift really quickly.

More stress on the AC, higher chance of nailing someone too, most DZ don't spiral for good reason.

Just straight ahead, with good engine management
 
If no traffic conflict existed, I'd keep the speed up and request an overhead approach.

Or, put it in a slip over the runway.

Or, retract the flaps in ground effect, land fast with the high AOA, get the mains on and brake.

Or, go around.
 
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More stress on the AC, higher chance of nailing someone too, most DZ don't spiral for good reason.

Just straight ahead, with good engine management

Nonsense on the stress thing. Keep the wings unloaded and let the nose drop. 1-G the whole time. There is always a higher chance of "nailing" someone when you try to loose altitude quickly, but with a series of steep opposing banks you have a pretty good view of what's below you.
 
A slip comes to mind.

A 360 pulling G's in a descent to bleed energy would work.

Better planning is the real answer.
 
Its amazing how just slowing down, wings level near the stall speed and pulling back on the yoke will get you to go down pretty quick without covering much ground. That said, I tend to slip more often when I want to get down. Lets me keep my speeds up, the nose pointed where I want to go and gets me down fast at the same time.
 
To go down fast, push the yoke forward. To go down a lot faster pull the yoke back - all the way back. You will go down a-rapidly.
 
Just a POI: there's a difference between high descent rate (FPM) and steep descent angle, and you'd handle them differently.
 
Nonsense on the stress thing. Keep the wings unloaded and let the nose drop. 1-G the whole time. There is always a higher chance of "nailing" someone when you try to loose altitude quickly, but with a series of steep opposing banks you have a pretty good view of what's below you.

After doing it for a living for 2 years, that's the industry standard.

Spiral if you like, the folks that do ASAP decents for a living don't.
 
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In our 172, if high, I can put in 40 degrees flaps and nose over and head down. Hard pressed to get it over 100 mph if I tried which is the white arc, level off, speed drops very fast and land.

Joe
 
Lol!! Why not just ask for a long landing? Satisfies their needs, and yours, plus gives you time to get stabilized.
 
After doing it for a living for 2 years, that's the industry standard.

Spir if you like, the folks that do ASAP decents for a living don't.

Nowhere did I say spirals. I said opposing banks. The OP wasn't asking about descending quickly from 10500 or 12500. He was talking (as was I) about quickly loosing altitude on final.

I've made over 400 skydives and have been a jump pilot, too. That's not the scenario being discussed.
 
So, there seems to be a little confusion. At no point did I ever feel that I couldn't land safely or needed to go-around. I always try to land long as taxing the 1 to 2 miles to park is a pain. Tower cleared me to land long so there was no worry on that side. The issue was how sloppy my approach was.

In the end I landed about mid-field and exited right where I wanted to. Obviously I should have planned my descent into the pattern better but having tower instruct me to cut off my base kinda messed me up and put me in the situation of needed to descent quickly.

Seems like most people think that a slip makes sense. This was what I did and then transitioned to a slow approach, nose high attitude, at 30 degrees flaps. The pilot sitting right seat suggested that rather than the slip holding it at 65 knots with 10 degrees of flaps would have been better and prompted me to ask this.
 
Nowhere did I say spirals. I said opposing banks. The OP wasn't asking about descending quickly from 10500 or 12500. He was talking (as was I) about quickly loosing altitude on final.

I've made over 400 skydives and have been a jump pilot, too. That's not the scenario being discussed.

I've tried both slips, slow flight, and quick banks. I tend to use slips/slow flight for rapid descents with high speed and banking s-turns for low speed but high approached.
 
S turns, pitch for airspeed, throttle for altitude.
How'd the slips with flaps work out? Never tried it myself.
Full flaps and a slow airspeed, a 172 should drop out of the sky.

Older cessna's placarded to avoid them, I've never tried (but understand that it's a non-event). Newer cessna 172s, slipped them all the time with flaps, never an issue. Obvious warnings about stalling the plane while in a slip to final of course. It is a great way to spin it in if your energy management isn't good. I'd try a few at altitude beforehand (and even take it up to the stall).
 
If it's just a thousand feet or so, dump the flaps and slips the snot out of her.
 
Obvious warnings about stalling the plane while in a slip to final of course.
It's only an issue if you add any elevator input. The airplane will safely sink towards the ground all day if the maneuver only consists of aileron and rudder inputs.
 
The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field.

On a 2 mile runway and 900' over the threshold I would have just approached and landed normally and enjoyed the half mile of runway that I didn't need to use.
Stephen.
 
Spin.

Talk about an elevator down!

OK, in reality, i'd slow it down and slip.
 
You didn't say how far out you were when this started, nor the field elevation of your home airport, so the information isn't there to simply figure out time, speed, distance, and descent rate to see if you were doing something sane or dumb. ;)

First things first: What the tower told you to do, has zero bearing on it. You're the pilot. Don't ever use what a tower told you to do as an excuse for poor piloting and planning. Aviate. Always.

Lets assume the worst on your numbers, and do some head math.

Let's just say you wanted a sedate 500 ft/min descent, and your field is at sea level.

You needed to start your descent 11 minutes out. 5500/500=11.

Doesn't matter what speed you're going. 500 ft/min to a 0 MSL airport from 5500 MSL takes 11 minutes. Period.

Simple head math. Always look for ways to make it simple head math. KISS.

Now if you have a GPS, that's a no-brainer. It'll tell you how many minutes until you arrive. But you don't so let's figure it out.

You need the math for your ground speed to see how much distance you'll cover in 11 minutes.

(If you know you have light winds, your airspeed will be a close enough SWAG.)

Now let's make the head math easy for speed, first.

Always choose methods you can do in flight with almost no brain cells operating and expand on it.

60 knots. (It makes the math easy to show. Watch.)

At 60 knots, you'll fly one minute per nautical mile.

You know you need 11 minutes to descend at 500 ft/min.

At 60 knots, you'll cover ... 11 nautical miles.

At 120 knots it takes 1/2 a minute per nautical mile. Or two nautical miles per minute, whichever way is easiest to remember for you.

Double the distance for the same amount of time. Time is fixed here because we want to come down at 500 ft/min. So...

At 120 knots over 11 minutes, you'll cover twice the distance: 22 nautical miles.

So unless you were 22 nautical miles out, you weren't going to do a nice 500 ft/min descent at 120.

Bzzzt. Unable.

(You also mentioned the yellow arc of your airplane but didn't say how fast that is in your plane.)

Ok. Let's try coming down at 1000 ft/min to help the controller out, and hopefully not hurt our ears...

Now you only need 5500 feet/1000 feet per minute=5.5 minutes to descend. The number of minutes now doesn't change for the rest.

5.5 minutes at 60 knots: 5.5 nautical miles.
5.5 minutes at 120 knots: 11 nautical miles.
5.5 minutes at 180 knots: 17.5 nautical miles.

You need to be that far out to make it down to 0 MSL from 5500 MSL at each of those speeds.

See how this works? Figure out the descent rate you want and get the number of minutes that will take and lock the minutes in your remaining calculations if your GPS doesn't have an ETE to the final waypoint, the airport.

Groundspeed just determines how far away you have to start to do it, because it changes how many miles you're covering in a minute.

You can tell quick and easy if you need to come up with a better plan.

Bonus points: Pattern altitude is generally 1000 AGL so you only need to get to the pattern altitude most times when you're doing this calculation.

In your scenario you're headed for the runway altitude though.

For most of what we all fly 120 knots is plenty fast and you don't need to be going faster than that.

And 1000 feet per minute is as fast as you typically need to come down.

So the rule of thumb is:

AGL / 1000 feet per min. Gives you minutes.

If you're 120 knots or slower, you're doing 2 nautical miles per minute or slower.

You need a minimum of [minutes needed to decend] * 2 = nautical miles to make that descent at a reasonable rate and speed.

Controller asks you inside that distance, you need to extend, make a pattern, make S-turns, whatever ... to get that much distance between you and the airport.

Pick a descent rate and lock it. Then the math becomes easy to do in your head is you know 60 knots is one nautical mile per minute. 120 knots is two. 180 knots is three.
 
So approaching my home field with it's 2 mile runway I started my descent a little late from 5,500 ft. I had a great tailwind and did a fast cruise descent near the yellow arc so that didn't help either. To make it even worse the tower had another plane coming in on the ILS and told me to head directly for the numbers and keep it in close. Thankfully I wanted to land long as I park on the other side of the field so there wasn't anything truly bad about this.

The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field. My solution was to enter a slip and pull up (e.g. hit the brakes), dump in 30 degrees flaps, and then enter a steep descent at around 70 knots. Bounced the landing and was generally unimpressed with myself for the sloppy approach.

So, long question short: what's the best way to loose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)

Your alive, call it a lesson, do better planing ? sloppy, and trying to compensate gets you killed.
 
holy mother tl;dr ^^^



Slow night?


More useful than reading the Loctite thread, showing a young pilot how to do quick descent rate calculations in their head.

Someone else could do a reply on how to do it on an E6B with full screenshots perhaps, which wouldn't be nearly as useful, but would certainly be longer. LOL!

(Many of us got tons of practice doing that at a table with a chart in front of us ,because it's required on a test, but not all instructors seem to teach the simple head space games that work in the cockpit that make this all go a lot easier, and make real aviators out of the pilots.)

Simple version without explanation:

Divide AGL altitude by 1000 and multiply by two for distance needed in nautical miles to descend 1000 ft/min at 120 knots.

That version doesn't teach what goes on in your head to figure that out for any speed.

You have to teach the thought process and repeat it phrasing it differently until it clicks. Once it does, it's so ridiculously easy you kinda wonder why you never thought of it that way before.

Plus thinking in terms of "I'm covering two miles a minute" helps a lot later when flying IFR. You know you're somewhere within two miles of where you got lost a minute ago, if you're doing 120 knots! ;)

Better to keep up and use it to know where you'll BE than how far you are from where you WERE though! ;)
 
So approaching my home field with it's 2 mile runway I started my descent a little late from 5,500 ft. I had a great tailwind and did a fast cruise descent near the yellow arc so that didn't help either. To make it even worse the tower had another plane coming in on the ILS and told me to head directly for the numbers and keep it in close. Thankfully I wanted to land long as I park on the other side of the field so there wasn't anything truly bad about this.

The end result was I crossed the threshold at 110 knots, 10 degrees flaps, and about 900 feet above the field. My solution was to enter a slip and pull up (e.g. hit the brakes), dump in 30 degrees flaps, and then enter a steep descent at around 70 knots. Bounced the landing and was generally unimpressed with myself for the sloppy approach.

So, long question short: what's the best way to loose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)

They don't all have to be pretty, just effective. Sometimes you just do what it takes. I have slipped over the runway many times to slow a floating plane, no big deal. As you get into more situations that take you away from the narrow, stable set of conditions we learn under, the more comfortable you get managing the energy in those situations. Eventually you understand exactly how much control you have over the energy (and where that ability ends) and you don't really worry about it anymore because you know that you can manage what you have at the bottom.

Just chalk it up as a learning experience. You used the tools you had available and corrected a situation you got yourself into by carrying too much energy into the airport environment. All in all you did fine. My only critique is you should have added more flaps the moment you realized you had too much energy, and even thrown in a brief slip earlier to get rid of some of it so you didn't have to lose it all at the bottom.
 
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A note on slips from the FAA Airplane flying handbook:

"Unlike skids, however, if an airplane in a slip is made to stall, it displays very little of the yawing tendency that causes a skidding stall to develop into a spin. The airplane in a slip may do little more than tend to roll into a wings level attitude. In fact, in some airplanes stall characteristics may even be improved."
 
"Unlike skids, however, if an airplane in a slip is made to stall, it displays very little of the yawing tendency that causes a skidding stall to develop into a spin. The airplane in a slip may do little more than tend to roll into a wings level attitude. In fact, in some airplanes stall characteristics may even be improved."

Huh, that's a new one on me... I sort of want to go try it at altitude now... in something docile :)

I just treat "ball out of cage" as "danger zone" wrt stalls turning into spins.
 
A note on slips from the FAA Airplane flying handbook:

"Unlike skids, however, if an airplane in a slip is made to stall, it displays very little of the yawing tendency that causes a skidding stall to develop into a spin. The airplane in a slip may do little more than tend to roll into a wings level attitude. In fact, in some airplanes stall characteristics may even be improved."

Try it at altitude before you believe that.

Slips drop the top wing. In a 172, it's slow enough that you could recover after the WTF stage, but that shock may last long enough to put you in the ground. In some airplanes, it will invert you quickly, and Bruce Air has some nice YouTube videos demonstrating that. Good luck recovering from inversion close to the ground with no training.
 
So, long question short: what's the best way to loose altitude quickly? (Short of a stall)


I would have pulled power to idle, dropped 30 flaps, buried the right rudder in the carpet, and used aileron as necessary to stay lined up with the runway. Should be fine on a longer runway.

Then call the tower and tell them about Loctite. :lol:
 
In our 172, if high, I can put in 40 degrees flaps and nose over and head down. Hard pressed to get it over 100 mph if I tried which is the white arc, level off, speed drops very fast and land.

Joe

:yeahthat: Comes down like a lead-coated brick.
Not a normal procedure though. Plan ahead.
 
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