Bravo clearance without the "magic words"

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Johann

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Johann
I've read several times and in several sources that you need to hear "cleared through the bravo" to be really cleared to fly through it.
However for a while I noticed that I don't remember hearing those words when flying the Hudson river corridor in bravo airspace.
The floor of the bravo over the Hudson goes to 1300 ft. Below that is the exclusion (SFRA), for which you need no clearance.

I've flown the bravo both at 2000 and 1500 and never remember hearing a clearance, so I went ahead and did it again, and then went to LiveATC to confirm the comms.
No cleared or bravo were mentioned, those words were not uttered. However I flew even over Manhattan where B goes to the surface, and nothing happened.

The phraseology from the controller is usually of the form:
"Bugsmasher 12345 radar contact at 2500 ft, descend and maintain 1500, proceed southbound over the Hudson".

Sounds like cleared enough to me, and I never gave it a second thought until recently, so it's just a curiosity.
 
The regs don't quote any magic words that have to be said verbatim. I'm with you on it sounding like you are. But around here most Bugsmasher pilots would respond with an inquiry just to make sure their tails are covered.
 
Sounds like a clearance to me since the controlling authority issued you the instructions to operate there. However, if you don't hear the standard phraseology 'Cleared...' It is in your best interest to ask if you are cleared. It sounds like a controller is handling you like he would an IFR aircraft already on a clearance. They already heard the magic word 'Cleared' at the beginning of the flight, and that clearance is still in effect at the B transition. A VFR pilot on FF has not necessarily heard that word yet, so there is at least a breach in etiquette if not regulation. As long as it's the controller who is issuing you the instructions, following them without hearing the magic word is hardly likely to cause a direct negative consequence though. There is the oddball potential though like a manager collecting evidence on a derelict controller, that could potentially leave you doing the carpet dance.

Personally if I don't hear it, I ask, but it's not something I really have a fuss about. Conversely I have had the controller quickly issue me a clearance just before I accidentally clipped their B, thanked them for that.
 
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Cleared into the bravo,if I don't hear it ,I ask the controller.
 
Strictly speaking they should say cleared into the bravo. If you're unsure just ask.

Hudson corridor is somewhat of a special case given the special procedure around getting clearance to fly the route and the constant contact and altitude assignments between controllers as they watch you. If they send you to an altitude that pokes up into the bravo then they've cleared you as your under their control at that point but if are unclear simply ask.

Where people get into trouble is when they are in flight following or otherwise talking to a controller while on a specific heading and fly into the bravo assuming that since they have flight following and talking to approach they're good to go. That's a big no no.
 
I've flown the corridor many times, and it's true, I don't always hear the magic words. But, every time I haven't heard them, I've queried ATC just to cover my butt and get it on tape. "Confirm N12345 is cleared into Bravo?" doesn't take much.

Entering the corridor from the north, frequently you'll be kept low until a few miles north of the GWB, then climbed up into the Class B. I would certainly hope to hear for the magic words before climbing.
 
"Cleared into the Class Bravo" is not required in the LAX corridor so technically speaking, it's not ALWAYS required prior to entering Class B.
 
NJP_MAN said:
"Cleared into the Class Bravo" is not required in the LAX corridor so technically speaking, it's not ALWAYS required prior to entering Class B.
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The "corridor" is NOT Class B, it is a VFR Class E (IIRC) tunnel through it with B surrounding it.
 
It's reasonable to believe that if you are in positive communication with the controlling authority and they are giving you vectors, restrictions, altitides or whatever type of "controls" imposed by ATC that you are cleared. As long as you don't hear remain clear of or the likes, I'm good with that.
 
It's not uncommon for controllers to forget to issue the clearance, or not say the words "cleared...class bravo" even though they have issued you a clearance where the route and altitude will obviously route you into class B. A simple "Confirm class bravo clearance" on my readback usually suffices. That way I can check my box.
 
Funny. There's a VFR corridor in Houston between two Class B regions, but here we're routinely "cleared into Class Bravo" when on Flight Following through that corridor even though the controllers almost always keep all traffic through there below the Class B shelf.
 
Unit74 said:
It's reasonable to believe that if you are in positive communication with the controlling authority and they are giving you vectors, restrictions, altitides or whatever type of "controls" imposed by ATC that you are cleared. As long as you don't hear remain clear of or the likes, I'm good with that.
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Yeah, I think the point is often over stressed, however aviation is a world of technicalities, and technically every 'clearance' begins with the word "Cleared...", at least every one I have received. So inevitably people get fussed when that word is missing, even though it's obvious he is clearing you into his airspace by the existence of the instruction.

This is one of the results of having an overly burdensome 'rule of law' society, people are afraid to think for themselves because they might make a mistake.
 
Henning said:
The "corridor" is NOT Class B, it is a VFR Class E (IIRC) tunnel through it with B surrounding it.
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They changed it several years ago. Now it's a Special Flight Rules Area so it is class B and you don't need a clearance. But those are "special flight rules" as the name implies.

San Diego still has a Class E tunnel over KSAN.


-Paul
 
Now it's a Special Flight Rules Area so it is class B and you don't need a clearance.
-Paul

So technically speaking, "Cleared into class B" doesn't have to be said. And my argument remains valid.
 
When VFR if and getting instructions into bravo airspace I will usually add it to the end of the read back instruction (If I dont hear it) with something like "Confirm cleared into Bravo" to keep radio clutter down. The response is usually Mooney xxxx Affirmative, or cleared Bravo.
 
Assuming a clearance that is not stated in those words works just fine until one day it turns out you guessed wrong.

Seems to me to be a silly risk to take in exchange for 2 seconds of confirmation. But that's just me.
 
Jim_R said:
Funny. There's a VFR corridor in Houston between two Class B regions, but here we're routinely "cleared into Class Bravo" when on Flight Following through that corridor even though the controllers almost always keep all traffic through there below the Class B shelf.
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I think it's just to cover everybody. When I approach the Houston Class B from the West even below 3000' where I'll never touch the bravo, I'll still hear it when on FF. Last weekend, we were coming back from Lockhart at 5500', got a clear through the Class B, but were asked to begin our descent at a point before it would have even been a factor.

Houston is pretty accommodating and friendly, though.
 
Henning said:
This is one of the results of having an overly burdensome 'rule of law' society, people are afraid to think for themselves because they might make a mistake.
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"Thinking for themselves" isn't the problem. If we don't hear "Cleared into the B" or something very similar, then it becomes a matter of interpretation. I might strongly believe, as the OP and many others have, that ATC's commands mean I'm cleared. That is logical and makes sense and there are probably chief counsel interpretations about it - others will chime in. But to me, the pilot, it is an interpretation, not explicit.

Pilots have heard too many tales of others getting burned because they misinterpreted a rule or missed a letter from the chief counsel or whatever. So since I'm not Ron Levy and I don't savvy all the tortuous legal counsel and case law mumbo jumbo, I just ask. :thumbsup:
 
MyassisDragon said:
When VFR if and getting instructions into bravo airspace I will usually add it to the end of the read back instruction (If I dont hear it) with something like "Confirm cleared into Bravo" to keep radio clutter down. The response is usually Mooney xxxx Affirmative, or cleared Bravo.
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yup....I do this also. :yes:

I've also declined a clearance into the SFRA with no VFR or IFR flight plan.:rolleyes: That requires a "phone" VFR flight plan or an IFR flight plan.
 
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petrolero said:
"Thinking for themselves" isn't the problem. If we don't hear "Cleared into the B" or something very similar, then it becomes a matter of interpretation. I might strongly believe, as the OP and many others have, that ATC's commands mean I'm cleared. That is logical and makes sense and there are probably chief counsel interpretations about it - others will chime in. But to me, the pilot, it is an interpretation, not explicit.

Pilots have heard too many tales of others getting burned because they misinterpreted a rule or missed a letter from the chief counsel or whatever. So since I'm not Ron Levy and I don't savvy all the tortuous legal counsel and case law mumbo jumbo, I just ask. :thumbsup:
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Right, but people shouldn't have to worry about interpreting the handling controllers explicit instructions into their airspace as a clearance, logic dictates it is so. It is only law that causes us to question our logic, therefor our ability to think. A byproduct of Rule of Law is that the ability to think in the general public atrophies because people quit using it. They follow the rules and they don't risk getting in trouble. Unfortunately they don't think either.

If a controller steers you into their airspace, then tells you you weren't clear and bust you, they are an ass, and will likely be taking more heat than you. Personally I don't see it happening.
 
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frfly172 said:
Cleared into the bravo,if I don't hear it ,I ask the controller.
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That.

Unless I'm IFR at the time

Its just not worth the lawyer fees.
 
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Henning said:
If a controller steers you into their airspace, then tells you you weren't clear and bust you, they are an ass, and will likely be taking more heat than you. Personally I don't see it happening.
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Exactly what I am saying. I don't need to hear it, but I MUST have those positive controls in place. But, I will say that I cannot remember the last time I was in bravo and not on an IFR clearance or flight following either.
 
Unit74 said:
Exactly what I am saying. I don't need to hear it, but I MUST have those positive controls in place. But, I will say that I cannot remember the last time I was in bravo and not on an IFR clearance or flight following either.
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Being VFR on flight following does not constitute a clearance; you still have to explicitly receive the clearance into the bravo.

If you are on flight following you may often get it before you ask for it, since they know where you're going and that you will need it... but, you still have to get it explicitly.
 
I understand being on flight following and suddenly getting an instruction that would take you into the Bravo. I think in that case I would ask as well.

In the case I mentioned, I'm not on flight following, I'm calling La Guardia tower explicitly asking for a route that will take me into the Bravo, and they reply with the instructions to proceed.
I guess I could ask in my read back, but I can almost see them rolling their eyes as they reply "Bugsmasher 12345, La Guardia Tower, duh" :D
 
Johann said:
I understand being on flight following and suddenly getting an instruction that would take you into the Bravo. I think in that case I would ask as well.

In the case I mentioned, I'm not on flight following, I'm calling La Guardia tower explicitly asking for a route that will take me into the Bravo, and they reply with the instructions to proceed.
I guess I could ask in my read back, but I can almost see them rolling their eyes as they reply "Bugsmasher 12345, La Guardia Tower, duh" :D
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Either that or cringe as they say "Bugsmasher 345, Cleared into..." as their supervisor glares at them for not following proper protocol.
 
JO 7110.65V FAA Controller Manual Section 9. Class B Service Area− Terminal says:

7−9−2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B
AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2−1−18, Operational Requests.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2−4−22, Airspace Classes.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO
AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO
AIRSPACE.
or
CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)
REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When
necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)
NOTE−
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is
based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance
with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will
cause violation of any part of the CFR.
2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is
dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate
VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage
occurs.
b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to
operate in Class B airspace based on workload,
operational limitations and traffic conditions.
c. Inform the pilot when to expect further
clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or
outside Class B airspace.
d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B
airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY−
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS
FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR
SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO
ZERO.

Some more stuff under methods part.
 
yhuubert said:
7−9−2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B
AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
Click to expand...

Johann said:
The phraseology from the controller is usually of the form:
"Bugsmasher 12345 radar contact at 2500 ft, descend and maintain 1500, proceed southbound over the Hudson".
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Sounds like a clearance to me.
 
ISaidRightTurns said:
Sounds like a clearance to me.
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It sounds like the vast majority of a clearance, a clearance always starts with the word, "Cleared". That is what is missing and makes it 95% of a clearance, but not a clearance. That is the problem, and why non standard phraseology is best avoided in critical communications.

Simple enough to deal with, you just follow the instructions and query "I am cleared in right?" The next time you can get in on the radio. Since in this case the instructions are safety critical, and the rule I am violating is to protect the guy giving me the instruction's airspace, the instruction takes priority over the initial rule. Further rules protect me in this action by stating that I should follow controller instructions and query for clarification as soon as possible. If I am flying their instructions and penetrate the airspace before I can get on the radio, I still have that protection.

When faced with a dilemma, you will always be best to make the safest choice, both physically and with the FAA. A 'phone call' that shows a good line of reasoning towards safety typically ends there.
 
Doesn't have to be the words "cleared into Bravo". There is no specified correct phraseology that constitutes a B clearance. It can be "Proceed as requested" or "stay on your heading and course", an instruction to fly to a point within Bravo, or any other implicit phrase. Or if you cancel IFR within B you're cleared to continue without any further clearance, etc.
 
All FAA guidance says "Cleared..." Is the preferred, if not required phraseology. It is taught to every student that you must hear that phrase, so even if not by direct regulation, it is expected by convention. This should be a fact known to all controllers. If they do not provide this phraseology then they are producing confusion. With that they have to expect to be questioned for clarification.
 
I once had a bravo clearance and was being vectored. The controller vectored me into a class delta than promptly chewed my ass for entering the delta without calling the tower up beforehand. It wasn't the airport I was landing at. Point is controllers aren't perfect. Some of them will attempt to blame you for their mistakes. I once had a controller give me a pilot deviation and take all my info. His supervisor called me back and told me he promptly put it in the trash when he listened to the tapes. The PD never made it to the FSDO.

No way I'm entering bravo vfr without hearing the word cleared.
 
stratobee said:
Doesn't have to be the words "cleared into Bravo". There is no specified correct phraseology that constitutes a B clearance. It can be "Proceed as requested" or "stay on your heading and course", an instruction to fly to a point within Bravo, or any other implicit phrase. Or if you cancel IFR within B you're cleared to continue without any further clearance, etc.
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In each of those cases, my response would include "and we're cleared into the Class Bravo" or an equivalent phrase, as in "Cleared into the Class Bravo on current heading and course."

I can't imagine why some folks are so resistant to a simple confirmation of their guess.
 
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It seems to me that even though the explicit "cleared" phrasing might not be required, technically, it costs a trivial amount of time and effort to ask anyway, just to be sure. So why not? Just to prove a point? Seems like one of those gambles where you're likely to win, but have nothing meaningful to win, and quite a lot to lose if the long shot works against you.
 
Johann said:
I understand being on flight following and suddenly getting an instruction that would take you into the Bravo. I think in that case I would ask as well.
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:yes:
ATC: "Tiger 22RL turn left heading 180 descend and maintain 3000."
Me: "Left 180, maintain 3000, and confirm cleared Bravo, Tiger 22RL"
 
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