Do you stress out when you don't see the traffic called out?

[SixPapaCharlie]

It was kind of fun in a crap your pants sort of way...

 

[wlawr005]

I think the most important thing people have touched on here is to keep your eyes out of the cockpit. People rarely hit what they can see.

Me personally, my eyes are out in front of me 90% of the time. I'm fast so I'm probably going to hit something, not the other way around. Unless you are in the traffic pattern just make sure that you are clearing your flight path first then worry about clearing left and right of the nose. If something is going fast enough to hit you from behind, beside, or below you...there isn't much you can do about it.

 

[bflynn]

Oh yes. I become a chatty Kathy when I hear someone report on CTAF they are where I am. That freaks me out.

This and when they're not where they say they are.

I had this happen on my private checkride a few years ago. I was about a mile out on the 45 and got a call from a Baron who was "crossing midfield, turning downwind". He should have been right in front of me, be we couldn't spot him. Turns out the Baron was NOT on crossing midfield and turning downwind, he was 2 miles on the other side of the airport and way to the left of the runway. His midfield crossing turned out to be a kinda 45 degree base, cutting in front of me when I was about 1/4 of a mile from my turning downwind. Worse, the DPE knew the pilot.

No collision problem, but we kept looking for him where he said he was, then looking to the left, looking right and never could find him. I was ready to turn right and circle out because I couldn't see him.

 

[MAKG1]

My favorite near miss was just prior to a descent into Sacramento. That's within a few degrees of a 360 course coming from the southern Bay Area. So, I was flying 002 cruising at 3500 in the Cardinal RG at 115, switched off NorCal to get weather, switched back on to hear "Cardinal 123XY climb 500 feet NOW!" So, I zoom climbed. Got 300 feet in a couple of seconds slowing to Vy. Then a Mooney blasted by at my former altitude. Presumably flying 178 or somesuch, leaving Sacramento. Aircraft close at 300 knots (relative) FAST.

 

[tiger]

Me personally, my eyes are out in front of me 90% of the time. I'm fast so I'm probably going to hit something, not the other way around.

I've seen this described as the 'cone of risk'. The faster you go, the more likely it is that any collision target is going to be ahead of you.

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/midair_collision_math_208325-1.html

For a spam can pilot, it's obviously possible to be hit (especially in cruise) by another airplane that you had zero opportunity to see. There's lots of documentation on the limitations of see and avoid, e.g.:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/4050593/see_and_avoid_report_print.pdf

To the extent there is an answer, it has to be technological, IMO.

 

[wlawr005]

Very nice links. Some excellent points for all types of traffic out there.

We have an agreement with the FAA to maintain 300 knots below 10K, and usually we have to slow down to maintain that airspeed. It's more of a safety of flight agreement, regarding our ability to maintain controllability without flaps down, etc. Usually, we are limited to operating around military airfields and thus rarely have to encounter GA travelling at 100ish knots.

For all the guys out there beating up the pattern, and flying for burgers...the same rules still apply. Keep your eyes out, clear your flight path, clear your lift vector, and keep talking on the radios.

 

[rocketflyer84]

Oh yes. I become a chatty Kathy when I hear someone report on CTAF they are where I am. That freaks me out.

Incorrect position reports are indeed annoying, and controllers get annoyed too. Some people seem to have a bad habit of reporting where they intend to be in 1-2 min vs. where they actually are right now--seemingly not understanding that someone else may already actually be at this point.

That was drilled into me hard during early training. "If you say you've over X, you better be over X... not 1 mile away approaching X"

 

[MAKG1]

That was drilled into me hard during early training. "If you say you've over X, you better be over X... not 1 mile away approaching X"

If you're approaching an X in the pattern, it might be a good idea to pick a different runway (unless you're a senator).

 

[Dr. O]

Stop expecting some guy with a coffee in one hand, or the electronics on the panel, to fly your airplane.
Get your head out of the ;$&?! panel and exercise your MK-I eyeballs.
Don't be looking high and low. The only plane you care about is the one right at your altitude.

 

[Vance Breese]

I go on high alert when people report their position incorrectly.
I find it disquieting at SZP when someone reports over the junk yard and I am over the junkyard at pattern altitude.
I am slow in the pattern (75kts), hard to see (no wings) and likely will be hit from behind although I have nearly overrun aircraft several times.
I am more comfortable with ATC watching out for me although I have had ATC instruct me to turn base into opposite direction traffic and have had pilots not follow ATC instructions creating a collision hazard.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I ask them what altitude they are at and make sure Im at a different altitude.

 

[JasonM]

For me it depends on where they are saying the traffic is heading. If they say traffic is heading away from me in a different direction I am going, then I wouldn't be that concerned if I did not see them. But if they say, traffic is inbound towards me in any way or I have the ability to overtake them in any way, I get very concerned. I would think not being concerned would be a bad thing for all of us. I am quick to ask for updates on the traffic I don't see, whether that be with ATC or a Tower controller, but that is me. I have read enough about airplanes colliding that I will do my best to not have it happen.

 

[MAKG1]

Then, there's "Traffic, [faster airplane], 6 o'clock" at the same altitude.

That, and a traffic call at a higher altitude at 3 or 9 o'clock (in a high wing) get a "request vector" right away.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

BS. I can see opposing traffic from 20 miles if they're flashing their landing and taxi lights. It's common in my area. LED lights make it even more effective. Vis is excellent up to 15-20* from directly opposing.

I agree with you! If I have strobes in what I'm flying, they are ON! I've caught strobes out of the corner of my eye , in daytime, several times and avoided trouble. I always announce my intentions near a uncontrolled airport, including altitude, three four miles out, entering the pattern , downwing, base, final, as I was taught years ago. Those that don't are a real hazard. Tough to see another aircraft thru the floor of your plane so see and avoid is not enough, ever. Also, landing lights on final, always. Those that say radios are not important are dangerous. Nerve wracking. If you were taught correctly, it's a moot point.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

"Less than 1 mile, same altitude" stresses me out

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

"Less than 1 mile, same altitude" stresses me out

First post.
Welcome!!

 

[Vaflier]

Saw a set off wheels appear above my windshield less than a hundred foot above us recently while flying to KTGI. Another aircraft overflew us from the rear. I don't think he ever saw us . Looked like a Diamond, probably looking at all his cool dash toys.

 

[Seanaldinho]

I got a call from ATC once about an F-18 passing from my 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock and to stop climbing.

5 o'clock is a tough place to look and within a minute that F-18 passed in front of my windscreen about 500 feet higher and rather close. Was an awesome sight but I was uncomfortable from the moment he called the traffic until I saw him in front of me doing 200+ knots.

 

[labbadabba]

I got a call from ATC once about an F-18 passing from my 5 o'clock to 11 o'clock and to stop climbing.

Yeah, they have a few of those in Northwest Florida... :wink2:

 

[Seanaldinho]

Yeah, they have a few of those in Northwest Florida... :wink2:

The F-18 wasn't even going into the NAS either, he was setting up for an overhead into Eglin.

 

[Lindberg]

Don't be looking high and low. The only plane you care about is the one right at your altitude.

And the one climbing or descending through your altitude.

 

[Dead Stick]

I run with the wingtip H.I.D.s on wig wag and I have LED nav lights and strobes.

That REALLY helps with both the "see" and the "be seen".

 

[jordane93]

I only stress out when ATC tells me to turn right left immediately.

 

[sixpacker]

I once had ATC warn me about traffic that had just popped up on their radar and was climbing rapidly towards me. I was IFR so ATC gave me a vector then almost immediately told me that the other aircraft ("unknown type") was not talking with them and was closing rapidly and told me to "do whatever you feel is necessary to maintain separation". I never saw the other aircraft. It was a citation who had just left an uncontrolled airport below and who then checked on about a minute later. That kind of sucked. ATC had to move someone else out of the way too. There was a layer of cumulus clouds maybe 50% coverage which he just blew through so couldn't see me.

 

[AKBill]

I only stress out when ATC tells me to turn right left immediately.

Never heard that one

 

[ARFlyer]

I only stress out when ATC tells me to turn right left immediately.

Or when ATC starts off a traffic call with "Don't be alarmed, BUT...."

I had that a few months ago over Dallas. A Cessna past behind us whites of their eyes close at the same altitude.

 

[Clark1961]

I once had ATC warn me about traffic that had just popped up on their radar and was climbing rapidly towards me. I was IFR so ATC gave me a vector then almost immediately told me that the other aircraft ("unknown type") was not talking with them and was closing rapidly and told me to "do whatever you feel is necessary to maintain separation". I never saw the other aircraft. It was a citation who had just left an uncontrolled airport below and who then checked on about a minute later. That kind of sucked. ATC had to move someone else out of the way too. There was a layer of cumulus clouds maybe 50% coverage which he just blew through so couldn't see me.

Gotta love VFR traffic when you're IMC...

 

[Henning]

I wish I could say that were true on my end. A few hundred hours in the G1000 and I still catch myself staring at the screens. Even the GTN650/750 combo get me. It's something about that moving map.

Maybe it's just my propensity for staring out the windows. that's what I loved about glass, didn't have to look at a bunch of stuff and figure out what it meant, then apply that to a paper chart, just a glance down and yep. The 430 architecture was annoyingly time consuming, but the 650/750 I found to require very little time to operate.

The big thing now is we have so much more information available to us, we have to figure out what we don't need, at least not as primary information.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Saw a set off wheels appear above my windshield less than a hundred foot above us recently while flying to KTGI. Another aircraft overflew us from the rear. I don't think he ever saw us . Looked like a Diamond, probably looking at all his cool dash toys.

According to the FAA this is how it usually happens. One aircraft higher, overtaking the other in a pattern. Difficult to see another aircraft thru the bottom of your aircraft! Radio communication is Sooooooo important.

 

[KyleT]

I was overtaken by a c130 when I was in a c150. Prob 500ft above. I heard and felt it right about the time I saw it scream over. I turned and thought I crapped my pants. No call because I was only monitoring approach and he must have been too.

Got close enough at night to see the numbers on a Cessna that turned infront of us. I was safety pilot and had him in sight. I gave vectors to the guy flying but they didn't work out. Had to push the yoke down very fast as the other plane turned right infront of us. We were climbing and I guess he was descending and skirting the edge of the delta. Got a very frantic traffic call. Should have reported as a near miss. We were very close. TIS said we were 100 below as we went under him. Now I turn away from anything I see at night until I verify it isn't too close. I am certain he never saw us. He had no strobes and only a weak flashing beacon. We had a beacon strobe and landing led on.

Getting vfr traffic same altitude imc is sketchy. I ask for a turn or vector if I don't have them in sight in 5 seconds. It is very apparent too in the voice inflection of controllers if it may be an issue. I also report type of I can tell and general altitude of they aren't squaking ie lower higher ect.

 

[Richard]

Gotta love VFR traffic when you're IMC...

Mine was a C-210 passing 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock about 100' blo in IMC between close layers. In the blink of an eye he popped out of a cloud then was gone. ATC said they didn't have him. I wasn't shaken, I was ****ed that another pilot would act so irresponsibly.

A flight club at my home case I decided not to join because the founding pilot was one of those guys. FAA had taken action against his cert several times yet he continued to fly when and where with no care for other pilots. I didn't want anything to do with that.

 

[Richard]

According to the FAA this is how it usually happens. One aircraft higher, overtaking the other in a pattern. Difficult to see another aircraft thru the bottom of your aircraft! Radio communication is Sooooooo important.

Bruce Landsberg of AOPA ASF told me that 80% of mid-airs occur by aircraft overtaking. Check six.

 

[Richard]

Someone wondered about helicopters. I don't have an answer but it reminded me of a flight. Departing KBFL to the north just after leveling at cruise I was eyes inside for a couple of seconds. I looked up to see a bright rainbow painted Sikorsky diving away from me. I banked hard to the right and we missed by mere feet. I can only imagine he rose straight up to my alt at 5,500. It was like he had been hovering, not in forward motion.

 

[Richard]

The gist of several comments here is the pilot's increased intensity looking for traffic only after ATC calls out. I object to that. Do not be voice activated; instead, your eyes outside should always be to the same intensity.

Too, don't confine your search to the probable area which ATC calls out. Keep the same scan. This is to reconfirm what was taught since you were a student...or should had been taught. I have been guilty of the same. ATC calls traffic at, say 2 o'clock so naturally I focus my attention to that sector. Whoa! he passed me at 10 o'clock. On the other hand I saw traffic before ATC called 'em out.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The gist of several comments here is the pilot's increased intensity looking for traffic only after ATC calls out. I object to that. Do not be voice activated; instead, your eyes outside should always be to the same intensity.

Too, don't confine your search to the probable area which ATC calls out. Keep the same scan. This is to reconfirm what was taught since you were a student...or should had been taught. I have been guilty of the same. ATC calls traffic at, say 2 o'clock to naturally I focus my attention to that sector. Whoa! he passed me at 10 o'clock.

So....what are you doing when you can't see that 11 o'clock and 1 mi traffic ATC just reported?

 

[Richard]

So....what are you doing when you can't see that 11 o'clock and 1 mi traffic ATC just reported?

I don't understand your question. Maybe it was the sun in my eyes, a bug splatter, the windscreen post, etc that obstructed my vision. Is that what you mean?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I don't understand your question. Maybe it was the sun in my eyes, a bug splatter, the windscreen post, etc that obstructed my vision. Is that what you mean?

you seem to indicate not to quit the "scan" for traffic....even though ATC just called traffic 11 o'clock and a mile.

What is the correct response? Do you keep looking all over the sky?....or do you try and do a better job with a vertical scan at 11 o'clock?....or do you change your position to put the traffic into not a factor?

 

[Richard]

Also, have you ever heard ATC say 11 o'clock, now 10 o'clock, now 9 o'clock, please report, in rapid succession? I have. At times like that I'd just rather turn off the radio.

 

[Richard]

you seem to indicate not to quit the "scan" for traffic....even though ATC just called traffic 11 o'clock and a mile.

What is the correct response? Do you keep looking all over the sky?....or do you try and do a better job with a vertical scan at 11 o'clock?....or do you change your position to put the traffic into not a factor?

Granted, ATC has the big picture in sight. They are helpful. The problem comes when they call out traffic which focuses your looking to a smaller segment of the sky. It is a fluid environment and ATC is not infallible. But by prioritizing your outside scan to the dictates of ATC the pilot may very well miss the traffic. That has happened to me on several occasions.

Ideally the pilot would know the conflicting traffic prior to ATC calling it out. But we don't live in that world. ATC provides a valued service but the danger is to when the pilot concentrates their look to where ATC says. Sure, that sector may become priority but the scan must remain broadened out from that.

Yes, especially near airport surface areas I waggle my wings, looking above below, right and left, or looking for shadows. (At TPA it is fairly easy to spot your own shadow. A Viet Nam era pilot taught me that.)

Away from aprt sfc area I may turn 5-10 degrees away from called out traffic but that 1) puts them blo my field of vision; 2) may turn me into the traffic. One doesn't know until they know the location and relative motion of the traffic.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Ans....all of the above.

Changing your position removes the safety hazard.