Do you stress out when you don't see the traffic called out?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Sorry for all of the aviation questions today. I know it's weird.

Tower calls traffic out to you and you don't see it.

Flying a little over 2 years and this still gets me in an escalating sense of urgency as time passes and I don't see it.
I find myself almost frantically looking, thinking it is just going to not be there and suddenly, KAPOW! windshield full of Cessna.

Has anyone here had a near miss (out side the pattern where the traffic was closing from a mile or more distance away)?
And if so does the other plane surprise you or would it be pretty obvious early on?
Meaning would it be a true statement that in order to have a mid air you would have to be distracted and not looking?

I have been thinking about closure rates and it seems possible to get surprised.

If you don't see traffic, do you ask for updates until it is not a factor?

Is there such a thing as a minimum for this?
Like if we are at the same alt and 2 miles or less, I am altering my course / alt to increase spacing?

I have found most times they call traffic to me, by the time I see it, it is much further away as is passes me and
I have also had it happen to where I don't see it and ATC comes back and says "this is now a traffic alert, descend 50 feet without delay"

Thoughts?

Thank you.
 
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With TCAS? Yes and no.
Both of us talking to ATC? Nah.
No comms, another airplane? Kinda.
Helicopters? Always.

I've been surprised with close calls before but it's part of the game.

I'm more paranoid with when I can see the traffic on my display, but not outside. I'm more comfortable, so to speak, when I have no traffic display capability inside the cockpit.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
With TCAS? Not really.
Both of us talking to ATC? Nah.
No comms, airplane? Kinda.
Helicopters? Always.
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I have poor man's TCAS (Zoan XRX) probably not the same.

What is the deal with helicoptors (And I don't mean that in a Seinfeld way)
 
Tower calling do not worry just report and keep eyes open.
No tower and another plane reports close to me and can not see, yea that gets to me.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have poor man's TCAS (Zoan XRX) probably not the same.

What is the deal with helicoptors (And I don't mean that in a Seinfeld way)
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I can never see them. Ever.

That Fredericksburg midair audio made it even worse.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
With TCAS? Not really.
Both of us talking to ATC? Nah.
No comms, airplane? Kinda.
Helicopters? Always.
Click to expand...

What about a plane that is not talking?

My favorite is opposite direction, 12 o clock altitude unknown, type unknown. That's when I get all "Jesus take the yoke", heebe geebies(sp) n stuff.
 
ron22 said:
Tower calling do not worry just report and keep eyes open.
No tower and another plane reports close to me and can not see, yea that gets to me.
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Oh yes. I become a chatty Kathy when I hear someone report on CTAF they are where I am. That freaks me out.
 
I've had a too-close call with a turbine Beaver outside of controlled airspace. Out of nowhere it filled the forward view. We were on exact opposite courses at the same altitude. I never saw him until I did. Since then? I light up like a Christmas tree. I want to make it easy for the other guy to see me. And in the known vicinity of traffic I'll rock the wings to improve my own visibility. That's all I can do. My worst scare came while in my 180 coming into Anchorage airspace. I almost drove into the tail of a Cub who was apparently demonstrating how slow he could go, and without lights. The slower you are (relative to other traffic) the more important a tail strobe becomes. Make yourself visible. It's the only thing you can control.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I can never see them. Ever.

That Fredericksburg midair audio made it even worse.
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I picked up a skycrane crossing my path, low. ATC (Denver Approach) was all weird about it: are you sure, etc. The skycrane was entering the area from east-northeast so there was no way he could have had flight following from center down low. He could have called approach and maybe been identified at 30 miles...maybe not. I couldn't blame him much for running across the Denver area down low except for the fact that Brighton/Van-Aire and Platte Valley were in that general area. Sheesh, with a skycrane whatchyagonnado?
 
Probably an unpopular response, but this is one of the things ADS-B helps with. I (or my copilot) have usually already been warned by the EFIS, and because we know relative location, speed, heading, and altitude we usually spot the plane out the window before ATC calls out traffic. I say "Traffic in sight, no factor." much more often than I say, "Looking for traffic" now.

I used to have the Zaon, that thing was worse than useless.
 
I'm more concerned with people self announcing in my vicinity than someone ATC is point to, unless they give an "altitude unknown". Around here mid airs are not unheard of.
 
Stewartb said:
I've had a too-close call with a turbine Beaver outside of controlled airspace. Out of nowhere it filled the forward view. We were on exact opposite courses at the same altitude. I never saw him until I did.
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So it was called out to you by ATC?
And forgive me, I have to ask. You were actively looking?

I am trying to think of what all can be done. I flash my brights at on coming traffic.

I am about to go from a 95kt plane to almost double that and I don't want to depend on big sky theory. I can fly slower I know but thinking ahead.
 
Cogito said:
Probably an unpopular response, but this is one of the things ADS-B helps with. I (or my copilot) have usually already been warned by the EFIS, and because we know relative location, speed, heading, and altitude we usually spot the plane out the window before ATC calls out traffic. I say "Traffic in sight, no factor." much more often than I say, "Looking for traffic" now.

I used to have the Zaon, that thing was worse than useless.
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I agree w/ the Zaon comment. It was good at picking up traffic but it was good at scaring the ever loving hell out of me when it would pick up my shadow.

I think ADSb is going to be a good solution and we have it (in) on the stratus but honestly, all it shows us it the airliners around DFW and the small handful of people that have adsb out. Not prevalent on the ASEL yet.
 
Outside of controlled airspace. Nobody was talking and nobody was expected to. I was flying the published route inbound.

I have strobes, a flasher on the fin, and wig-wags on the nose. I didn't then but I do now. I'm a big fan of recognition lighting.

I wouldn't trust TCAS or ADS-B. Even in 2020 ADS-B will only be required in controlled airspace. There are lots of planes out there that won't have it and may not even have radios, which are not required equipment in most of the USA. My biggest pet peeve is guys doing sloppy position announcements. "Coming up on"? What the hell does that mean? 100 yards? A mile? 5 miles? No offense but the scariest time to fly around Anchorage is when the visitors show up.
 
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ron22 said:
Tower calling do not worry just report and keep eyes open.
No tower and another plane reports close to me and can not see, yea that gets to me.
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Ask the folks on that helicopter the cirrus hit on downwind in FDK, see and avoid in VMC regardless of what your doodads in the cockpit say.
 
James331 said:
Ask the folks on that helicopter the cirrus hit on downwind in FDK, see and avoid in VMC regardless of what your doodads in the cockpit say.
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This accident has me thinking a lot. I don't know who reads my nonsense but we will be in a Cirrus soon. During test flight I noticed the plane announces "traffic" audibly. Well your first reaction is to look on the avedyne and find it and then look out the window (Maybe shouldn't be that way :dunno:)

In the pattern, that alert IMO should have an off switch (maybe it does)
Only think inside I look at in the pattern is ASI and on Base to final, I tend to peek at the AI due to left over fear instilled in me by instructors. Other than that, eyes are outside.

I hadn't been in a cirrus when the FDK incident happened but now having been in one, I can totally see how that could happen. That may not have been the cause but I can understnd how the plane draws your focus inside which could lead to that situation.
 
Stewartb said:
Outside of controlled airspace. Nobody was talking and nobody was expected to. I was flying the published route inbound.

I have strobes, a flasher on the fin, and wig-wags on the nose. I didn't then but I do now. I'm a big fan of recognition lighting.

I wouldn't trust TCAS or ADS-B. Even in 2020 ADS-B will only be required in controlled airspace. There are lots of planes out there that won't have it and may not even have radios, which are not required equipment in most of the USA. My biggest pet peeve is guys doing sloppy position announcements. "Coming up on"? What the hell does that mean? 100 yards? A mile? 5 miles? No offense but the scariest time to fly around Anchorage is when the visitors show up.
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Lights don't do a damn thing in the daytime unless they're recog/landing lights and they're pointed directly at you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I hadn't been in a cirrus when the FDK incident happened but now having been in one, I can totally see how that could happen. That may not have been the cause but I can understnd how the plane draws your focus inside which could lead to that situation.
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That is one of my biggest complaints about advanced tech in a cockpit. Nobody looks outside anymore.

The other one is that the pilot no longer uses his brain because the computer does it for him.

Fly an airplane that barely has the mins for instruments. The difference in your scan is night/day and you will have a lot more fun.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Lights don't do a damn thing in the daytime unless they're recog/landing lights and they're pointed directly at you.
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BS. I can see opposing traffic from 20 miles if they're flashing their landing and taxi lights. It's common in my area. LED lights make it even more effective. Vis is excellent up to 15-20* from directly opposing.
 
You should see a PC12 with flashing HID recogs!

I agree, the more basic the panel the better your OUTSIDE scan will become.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
That is one of my biggest complaints about advanced tech in a cockpit. Nobody looks outside anymore.

The other one is that the pilot no longer uses his brain because the computer does it for him.

Fly an airplane that barely has the mins for instruments. The difference in your scan is night/day and you will have a lot more fun.
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I don't find that particularly true in the long run. Yes, there is certainly a learning curve when we learn to access and assimilate the new, extra, information, but once you get through that period, then you only spend a moment glancing for the info. Quick look down, get an azimuth and bearing and look directly that way. Once you learn to use the equipment efficiently, it makes your time looking out the window more efficient.
 
If I don't see called out traffic in about ten seconds, I'll key up and say 'negative contact.'

This gives the controller a head's up that I'm vulnerable and would he please keep an eye out for me. After some more time if I can't see it, I'll say it again and they usually come back with 'traffic no factor' if they have been silent.

I run with the wingtip H.I.D.s on wig wag and I have LED nav lights and strobes.
 
Stewartb said:
BS. I can see opposing traffic from 20 miles if they're flashing their landing and taxi lights. It's common in my area. LED lights make it even more effective. Vis is excellent up to 15-20* from directly opposing.
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Flashing? Sure. You probably have a better scan than I do.

James331 said:
You should see a PC12 with flashing HID recogs!

I agree, the more basic the panel the better your OUTSIDE scan will become.
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You always knows it's a PC-12 when you see 5 lights heading your way.

Our PC-12 doesn't have the HID's but I can imagine.

Henning said:
I don't find that particularly true in the long run. Yes, there is certainly a learning curve when we learn to access and assimilate the new, extra, information, but once you get through that period, then you only spend a moment glancing for the info. Quick look down, get an azimuth and bearing and look directly that way. Once you learn to use the equipment efficiently, it makes your time looking out the window more efficient.
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I wish I could say that were true on my end. A few hundred hours in the G1000 and I still catch myself staring at the screens. Even the GTN650/750 combo get me. It's something about that moving map.
 
MAKG1 said:
After 15 seconds or so, "negative contact, request vector." No, it doesn't freak me out.
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That's good to know. Wasn't aware of "request vector" phraseology.

Thanks.
 
I get a smidge worried when the tower doesn't have radar. Fortunately, my home airport tower does so I don't worry about it too much when I'm in the Delta.

I flew over to KTME (Houston Exec) over Christmas and I'm on a 3 mile base with all my lights on and the tower can't see me and there's two other planes entering the pattern. One of them a guy in a small Cherokee who English was clearly his 2nd language and seemed like he had no idea what he was doing (and landed and was in some school uniform that looked like a charter pilot getup). I was a little nervous but knowing I was on base I'd see any lights in closer so felt pretty good about it.
 
kenjr said:
I get a smidge worried when the tower doesn't have radar. Fortunately, my home airport tower does so I don't worry about it too much when I'm in the Delta.
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Always keep in mind that tower can mis-identify aircraft on radar and create a bad situation out of a busy situation...I've had it happen.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have poor man's TCAS (Zoan XRX) probably not the same.
Click to expand...

The old Mooney has Ryan TCAD, displayed on the 430. In high traffic areas, is more of an annoyance than helpful. I've been known to cage it just to silence the thing.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
That's good to know. Wasn't aware of "request vector" phraseology.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's standard phraseology, but I think it is, and it works real nice in a radar environment. It's the enroute equivalent of "call my base," an all too frequent occurrence in MVFR on a busy day with traffic in the opposite pattern.
 
If I do not see the traffic in the pattern I do reply negative contact and I will also ask them to call my base. Usually, when I do not see the plane on final, It is lower than I expect it to be. Under other situations, I have found that while ATC may agree with my ADS-B In/Out, I seldom can see the traffic (maybe I can see 40% of the traffic within 2 miles.)
That is another reason I put strobes on my planes within a month of purchase.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This accident has me thinking a lot. I don't know who reads my nonsense but we will be in a Cirrus soon. During test flight I noticed the plane announces "traffic" audibly. Well your first reaction is to look on the avedyne and find it and then look out the window (Maybe shouldn't be that way :dunno:)

In the pattern, that alert IMO should have an off switch (maybe it does)
Only think inside I look at in the pattern is ASI and on Base to final, I tend to peek at the AI due to left over fear instilled in me by instructors. Other than that, eyes are outside.

I hadn't been in a cirrus when the FDK incident happened but now having been in one, I can totally see how that could happen. That may not have been the cause but I can understnd how the plane draws your focus inside which could lead to that situation.
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I doubt his head was inside the cockpit....based on where the debris landed. They were both in the traffic pattern for all intents and purposes....glass cockpit or not....heads are outside when in the pattern. :rolleyes:

and a quick review of the audio will also identify that the Cirrus pilot was "looking" for the traffic called out by ATC.

....and yes I get the heebies when traffic is called that I wasn't tracking.:yikes:
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
That's good to know. Wasn't aware of "request vector" phraseology.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You can always request a vector if you feel uneasy about the situation. If you're on a collision course the controller just isn't going to keep calling traffic like a robot either. At some point you'll get a safety alert. "N6PC, traffic alert 2 o'clock, 1 mile, eastbound, altitude indicates 2,500, advise you turn (heading), climb/descend (altitude) immediately."

Sometimes you'll hear the controller use the phraseology "targets appear likely to merge." If you hear that, that's usually a good time to request a vector.
 
I fly in SE Alaska. All the part 121 operators as well as most private flyers use position reports. "Lena Point, 2.5, Skagway". I know the folks in the lower 48 don't do position reports like we do here. We follow channels and canals in SE, AK, traffic is confined to concentrated fly ways. The wife and I have swivel heads when flying. I agree with Steward, flashing strobe lights make a big difference in identifying and locating aircraft.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Has anyone here had a near miss (out side the pattern where the traffic was closing from a mile or more distance away)?

And if so does the other plane surprise you or would it be pretty obvious early on?
Click to expand...


For the most part in the traffic pattern, planes are flying in a somewhat predictable manner. With CTAF I watch very closely and make my position reports. Normally I am one of the faster planes in the pattern, and will adjust and call my modifications (ie Number 2 for landing following xxx, extending down wind). I will do this to buy time particularly if I can't see, or lost the traffic. BTW this seems to be less of a problem, so, this might be something that gets better over time. I definitely am able to spot planes that other pilots with less time can't find.

At a tower controlled field, almost always I do see the traffic, but will tell the tower if I don't. Generally they will say something like they will call my base. And then eventually no factor. Fortunately the few times I have flown around helicopters they were on another part of the airport. At least as far as I knew.

Enroute, I always file, so on a few occasions, when I get the unknown traffic doing maneuvers, I have said negative contact, I have requested to deviate away 10 degrees. Normally I get an approved, or a no factor.

I had one very close call one time. It was years ago in controlled airspace. I was transitioning from the west to Lake Michigan through Midway's airspace under Ohare Class B. It is a very popular transition route.

Altitude is very restricted. The Bravo floor is 1,900 and the ground is about 700. So most pilots stay between 1,700 and 1.800.

Local pilots know that Eastbound you fly south of The Eisenhower Expressway, and Westbound you fly North.

Often Midway tower will remind pilots of the West/East North/South rule. I had just heard a plane check in from Meiggs (who used to control traffic along the lake - as I said this was a long time ago). MDW tower approved his transition, and suggested he stay north of the Eisenhower.

The controller made a couple calls reminding us to make sure we were on the correct side of the expressway. It was late summer, so it was hazy, plus this is an extremely congested area, so you have buildings, cars, trucks all blending together to make spotting an aircraft coming at you a challenge.

The tower called out our traffic, I said negative contact. I never heard the other pilot report. After about 2 minutes of not seeing the other plane we finally got:

"November xxx turn right NOW, no reply. November YYYY turn right NOW no reply." I yanked the yoke to the right, and a few seconds later off my left flying level on the wrong side of the Eisenhower was a good size twin. The pilot was in his 50's balding and on the heavier side. What really sticks in my mind was that he was looking straight out the front of the plane. He never even looked my way.

That scared the crap out of me. That is much closer to another plane than I ever want to be. I thanked the controller profusely, and I have to say she sounded pretty relieved herself.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Sometimes you'll hear the controller use the phraseology "targets appear likely to merge." If you hear that, that's usually a good time to request a vector.
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I have heard that before, and it's not fun. I turned out of the way just in time to avoid a DA-40
 
Had a case when the controller came on and said "Exercise extreme caution, numerous... numerous targets in your vicinity" and I can only see one plane out the window. Then I was nervous.

Looking forward to when ADS-B is mandatory.
 
I have a MaxPulse controller flashing my landing and taxi lights 100% of the time that I fly. 100w halogen lights aren't the best choice for these little units but LEDs work great for recognition. The on/off cycle with LEDs is very crisp. Older installations have PulseLight flashing systems and those do fine with old incandescent lights but MaxPulse is the common choice these days. Wig wag flashing of landing and taxi lights is very common in Alaska.

http://www.maxpulsemaxdim.com/maxpulseproduct.htm
 
Certainly gets my attention, I would agree with asking for more clarification if it is supposed to be close by. Given altitudes also play into the conversation for me. Otherwise, keep look and let it be especially if both people are talking.
 
I missed a head-on by a couple hundred feet in flight training. Flying a PA28 into Essex County under ATC a Mooney came screaming out of Lincoln Park. We didn't see him under our wing until he was right in front of our nose. It was close enough that I could see what kind of headset the pilot had.

We pulled up hard and did a wing over to the right. It was kind of fun in a crap your pants sort of way...
 
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