Checkride Question

Randall45

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Randall
For planning the PPL cross country, is it necessary to choose waypoints on the way to the destination? My instructor insists that--for the navlog--all I need is the departure airport and the arrival airport.

I'll abide by this, I just don't want to be blind sighted during the oral if this is improper.
 
For planning the PPL cross country, is it necessary to choose waypoints on the way to the destination? My instructor insists that--for the navlog--all I need is the departure airport and the arrival airport.

I'll abide by this, I just don't want to be blind sighted during the oral if this is improper.

Wow, that is some strange advice indeed for your PPL Checkride nav log. Mine had quite a few way points both visual and VOR, enough that the next one was identifiable from the last.
 
You will fly to the first checkpoint on your Navlog and have to demonstrate your control of the airplane and timekeeping.

I would make the first checkpoint no more than 5-10 minutes away, and near a diversionary airport.
 
For planning the PPL cross country, is it necessary to choose waypoints on the way to the destination? My instructor insists that--for the navlog--all I need is the departure airport and the arrival airport.

I'll abide by this, I just don't want to be blind sighted during the oral if this is improper.


You want to choose waypoints close enough together that you can find them using pilotage, and showing that you are aware of the possible outtage of your avionics.
 
You will fly to the first checkpoint on your Navlog and have to demonstrate your control of the airplane and timekeeping
That is very strange advice from your CFI. Like this post says, you'll fly to your first, maybe even second checkpoint so your examiner knows you can keep time, headings, altitudes, etc.
 
For the flight plan I would use the departure and arrival airport and any waypoints that happen to take you away from a more direct course.

Now for the navlog on the other hand, during the practical exam for the Private Pilot Certificate I would use checkpoints as others have said. If you are crossing a checkpoint you should be able to see the next checkpoint. This is my recommendation.
 
I planned checkpoints every 10-20 miles for mine. I was asked to identify my first couple of checkpoints too.
 
When you plan your trip out, take a look at a the aerial imagery along your route, either in foreflight or google earth. There are lots of things that will stand out from the air that you could use to help plan your trip. I was told and did plan for every 10-15 nm
 
...if you show up with a GPS direct to your destination, you'll fail your oral before you even get into the plane. Your DPE will not let you use the GPS when you fly the first 2-3 waypoints of your simulated XC. Most will ask you to fly direct back to the airport when you're done with maneuvers, etc... saying something like, "Take us back to KXXX..." and then you can use your GPS. They want to see at some point during the ride that you know how to use it...

In the 'real' world you'll find that your trips across the state or what not will be more like GPS direct flights. But the point of putting together a NavLog for your PPL checkride is so that you can demonstrate pilotage/dead reckoning skills. You'll need to do 10 minute or so waypoints all the way to your destination.

Look at page 101 on the PTS:

Task A: Pilotage and Dead Reckoning (AMEL and AMES)
References: FAA-H-8083-25; 14 CFR parts 61, 91; Navigation
Chart.
Objective: To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to
pilotage and dead reckoning.
2. Follows the preplanned course by reference to landmarks.
3. Identifies landmarks by relating surface features to chart
symbols.
4. Navigates by means of precomputed headings,
groundspeeds, and elapsed time.
5. Demonstrates use of magnetic direction indicator in
navigation, to include turns to new headings.
6. Corrects for and records the differences between preflight
groundspeed, fuel consumption, and heading calculations
and those determined en route.
7. Verifies the airplane’s position within 3 nautical miles of the
flight-planned route.
8. Arrives at the en route checkpoints within 5 minutes of the
initial or revised ETA and provides a destination estimate.
9. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet and heading,
±15°

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/FAA-S-8081-14B.pdf
 
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Planning waypoints is absolutely necessary during your checkride! Follow everyone's advice.
 
Thanks, guys! Phew...avoided a disaster there.
 
There is no reason that you can't use your destination as your 1st check point. However per the PTS you will be required to fly to your 1st check point. It will make for a long check ride.:)
You and your CFI need to review the PTS.

Brian
 
Okay Brian...always room for fun.

I'm trying to do a checkpoint every 10nm, but it's a 136nm flight with 7 checkpoint spaces in the nav log?

As is, I'd need an average of 20nm per checkpoint.

Can I do normally spaced, and then track the VOR for the last 30 or so miles?
 
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Okay Brian...always room for fun.

I'm trying to do a checkpoint every 10nm, but it's a 136nm flight with 7 checkpoint spaces in the nav log?

As is, I'd need an average of 20nm per checkpoint.

Can I do normally spaced, and then track the VOR for the last 30 or so miles?

It's ok to use two pages.
 
A checkpoint every 10NM is unnecessary. If you plan the first checkpoint 5-10NM from the airport, plan the rest every 10-15min or 20-30NM, whichever is greater.

If you assume it's a clear day, you'll have 10NM or so visible behind you to still have the last checkpoint in sight when the next checkpoint starts becoming visible 10NM out. 30NM checkpoints can also indicate ability to find checkpoints after dead reckoning navigation or becoming lost.

Also- remember VORs count as visual checkpoints.
 
you don't have to do one every 10nm. Sometimes you aren't even flying in a perfectly straight line because you are following a road and your two checkpoints are towns on the road or a lake or other landmark on the sectional between the towns. It's perfectly legit to tune in VOR's and track them or track a checkpoint when you cross a specific radial on your path, but you can't just say, "Hey, I'm going to climb and tune in XYZ VOR and track it to the destination...". You still need visual checkpoints along the way.

Typically the DPE will tell you what he wants prior the the ride. I'd recommend you go fly the route - it will help a ton. And honestly, you should have already done this at least 3 times as a part of your training prior to the checkride so mapping landmarks and such to sectionals and flying the map/identifying your checkpoints should already be something you have done, right?

Moral of the story is - once you've done a few XC's you'll realize that certain things aren't as easy to spot from the air and you can go longer between certain checkpoints if you are following a road for example between two that are maybe 20 or 30nm apart. You don't really need a point between those because you have your 'line' to follow.

The important ones for the ride are going to be the first 3. It's highly unlikely you'll go any more than that...usually once you eyeball that 3rd one the DPE will simulate a diversion or something...you will not fly your entire XC. So, you need to make sure you know how to get on that heading from the climb out, how long you planned to make it to each checkpoint vs how long it actually took and the implications of it taking longer than you had originally planned in your navlog. Your DPE will ask you why that's happening and the impact on your fuel burn and if at this rate you'll still be able to make your destination with fuel onboard, etc...
 
Thanks, guys! Phew...avoided a disaster there.

My concern is if your CFI gave you that advice, I wonder how well he has you prepared for your oral? You might seek out a senior CFI to give you a mock oral.
 
Thanks, guys! Phew...avoided a disaster there.
You might want to look for a new CFI. If you didn't post on here and got the information you would have busted your ride. Edit, Henning beat me.
 
Thanks, guys!

So helpful. Unfortunately, I wont' have time to practice this stuff in the airplane before the checkride. But I'll make hay with what I have and if I need another go, no problem--happy to do it for safety. And if not, good for me!

You guys are always a great resource. Helpful, indeed.
 
man, so these are the CFI's my DPE was complaining about...

It's unfathomable to me that any CFI would send a student to a checkride with a NavLog with one checkpoint...the destination. Wow.

What concerns me is that you have to have 3 XC's in your logbook to even go the checkride. Did you just fly GPS direct on your previous XC's or did you create a NavLog with checkpoints?

You can always push the checkride. If not, good luck? :dunno:
 
Thanks, guys!

So helpful. Unfortunately, I wont' have time to practice this stuff in the airplane before the checkride. But I'll make hay with what I have and if I need another go, no problem--happy to do it for safety. And if not, good for me!

You guys are always a great resource. Helpful, indeed.

Push the checkride off. Practice Navigating. Trust me on this- if the DPE gets goofy because you are unpracticed at something, it can take months to untangle.
 
Thanks, guys!

So helpful. Unfortunately, I wont' have time to practice this stuff in the airplane before the checkride. But I'll make hay with what I have and if I need another go, no problem--happy to do it for safety. And if not, good for me!

You guys are always a great resource. Helpful, indeed.


Is there any reason that you cannot reschedule the checkride?

While I wish you the best, I must agree with those that have stated that your CFI has set you up for a major disaster by not having taught you one of the most basic skills required of a Private Pilot student.

Please...reschedule if at all possible!!!! :yes:

Mike
 
My concern is if your CFI gave you that advice, I wonder how well he has you prepared for your oral? You might seek out a senior CFI to give you a mock oral.

It sure sounds like a misunderstanding to me.

The OP confused a nav log with a flight plan. Given that they are often on opposite sides of the same sheet of paper (or two different screens on the EFB), it's really easy to mix them up.

It's a wildly important detail. Nav logs should have checkpoints every so often (I think 20 nm is too close, but that's real life, not a check ride). The flight plan may say "direct" if the actual track isn't too far off.

But BE CAREFUL. That flight plan is for search and rescue, IRL. If you do happen to go down and that flight plan is all we have, if it's not supremely accurate, you will not be spotted for a long time, especially if terrain is a factor. ELTs don't always go off or stay transmitting, especially if consumed by fire (and a DF won't even be attempted for an hour or two at best -- crews have to get to the aircraft, and people have to figure out you need the DF).

Everyone seems to be quick to blame the instructor. Maybe it's his screw up, but I don't see any way to distinguish that from the OP's, from the information in this thread.

While confusing a nav log and a flight plan is an understandable mistake for a student pilot, it's a BIG one.
 
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Oh yes, whole different story if you are on the back side of the nav log.

Your nav log should be similar to this and have all your check points between start and finish.

nav-log.jpg




The flight plan portion is likely what your CFI is telling you about
This thing:

F0501001.gif



For the route of flight you can just put direct to wherever.

However I was taught to put "Airport 1 - waypoint - waypoint - waypoint - destination"


As stated before though I would be a little concerned that you have already done XC flying and asking this.
On the other hand if he is actually talking about the nav log side, there is a bigger problem.

The flight plan portion is not all that critical. I just filled it out so I had all the information quickly for a briefer when calling Flight Services.
 
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It sure sounds like a misunderstanding to me.

The OP confused a nav log with a flight plan. Given that they are often on opposite sides of the same sheet of paper (or two different screens on the EFB), it's really easy to mix them up.

It's a wildly important detail. Nav logs should have checkpoints every so often (I think 20 nm is too close, but that's real life, not a check ride). The flight plan may say "direct" if the actual track isn't too far off.

But BE CAREFUL. That flight plan is for search and rescue, IRL. If you do happen to go down and that flight plan is all we have, if it's not supremely accurate, you will not be spotted for a long time, especially if terrain is a factor. ELTs don't always go off or stay transmitting, especially if consumed by fire (and a DF won't even be attempted for an hour or two at best -- crews have to get to the aircraft, and people have to figure out you need the DF).

Everyone seems to be quick to blame the instructor. Maybe it's his screw up, but I don't see any way to distinguish that from the OP's, from the information in this thread.

While confusing a nav log and a flight plan is an understandable mistake for a student pilot, it's a BIG one.

A testament to the severity of the issue: I did not confuse the two.

Also, I passed. I didn't feel super ready, but I'm pretty book smart (national merit scholar, going to top 15 school) so I knew most of the stuff and just tried my best with the limited experience I had.

All told, no real problems. Went out of PTS on one maneuver, but was allowed to retry it (which is super nice). So all in all fine.

I will say one thing though: Even though I passed, my confidence is at an all time low. I wish I did better during the entire process...but I guess she wouldn't have let me pass if it was otherwise...

The weather was, however, absolutely gorgeous in Atlanta today.
 
Congratulations. No checkride is perfect
 
Many pilots are super book smart. Most people are intimidated by a check ride. It is a completely different cross functional set of skills that don't often come naturally to book smart people.
 
ChrisK, WELL SAID! The same thought crossed my mind. Although I generally succeed with a piece of paper in front of me, I've never had to confront an oral (unless it was Spanish class) and a practical test.

I've become so adept at studying until I understood the material...but how does one go about doing this if you need a component to improve (read: the airplane).

To this end, I say congrats to all PPLs! You've really accomplished something special.
 
A testament to the severity of the issue: I did not confuse the two.

Also, I passed. I didn't feel super ready, but I'm pretty book smart (national merit scholar, going to top 15 school) so I knew most of the stuff and just tried my best with the limited experience I had.

All told, no real problems. Went out of PTS on one maneuver, but was allowed to retry it (which is super nice). So all in all fine.

I will say one thing though: Even though I passed, my confidence is at an all time low. I wish I did better during the entire process...but I guess she wouldn't have let me pass if it was otherwise...

The weather was, however, absolutely gorgeous in Atlanta today.

Excellent work on the pass. If that was truly the advice you were given by the CFI on the Nav Log, I would suggest you find a different person to be your CFII when/if you go for your instrument rating. Now go out and have some fun with your new ticket.
 
Congrats on passing, The checkride has three main purposes if it is done well, The 1st obvious one is to verify you can safely fly the airplane and have adequate knowledge to do so. The 2nd is to cement what you have learned and perhaps teach a few new things. Very few applicants can say they didn't learn something during the checkride. 3rd is to show you some of what you don't know, that can make you feel a bit inadequate but it is designed to keep you from getting to overconfident and perhaps be a bit more careful and continue learning. You just graduated from Elementry School, now it is time to start learning the High School Topics.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
...congrats man - glad it worked out!

...and I concur. I'd be looking for another CFI if you are continuing on.
 
I don't even know what to do? Get a passenger, fly around, do some landings..?
 
Start working on those 50 mile x country flights to start filling in the requirements for your instrument rating.
 
Randall, congratulations. I too felt low confidence after my checkride. But it gets better, you regain it when you start flying for fun. If don't feel ready to fly, give it a few days, your hands will start missing the yoke, believe me. ;)

Now go find some $100 hamburgers.
Fly safe!
 
They guy you don't want to fly with is the one not afraid of his checkride.
 
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