Your weekly, "Can I log that?" question...

[david0tey]

I have seen these questions asked a million times, and I have a heard a million different answers, so here goes.

Scenario 1: [Two private pilots building XC time] I understand that the safety pilot can log PIC time while the other is under the hood, but can he also log XC time even though he does not takeoff the airplane at point A and land the airplane at point B?

Scenario 2: [Two private pilots, one with pax night currency, one without] Can I (not having my night currency) legally do three takeoffs and landings with another private pilot (having his night currency) to get current myself? In other words, can he act as PIC while I am logging the landings? And if so, can your logbook show that you did three landings while not logging any PIC time?


Thanks.

 

[flyingron]

I
Scenario 1: [Two private pilots building XC time] I understand that the safety pilot can log PIC time while the other is under the hood, but can he also log XC time even though he does not takeoff the airplane at point A and land the airplane at point B?

If he IS the pilot in command, he can log pilot command during simulated instrument flight. He may also log cross-country time if the flight meets the requirements for cross-country time. It doesn't matter that he wasn't the one manipulating the controls.

Scenario 2: [Two private pilots, one with pax night currency, one without] Can I (not having my night currency) legally do three takeoffs and landings with another private pilot (having his night currency) to get current myself? In other words, can he act as PIC while I am logging the landings? And if so, can your logbook show that you did three landings while not logging any PIC time?

Well sort of. Why do you think you can not log PIC time? You can log PIC time if you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. Being pilot in command is NOT a necessary nor sufficient condition to log PIC time. If the other pilot, as pilot in command, is willing to allow you to be the sole manipulator of the controls, you can log it as PIC, and count the landings for your currency. He, however, can't log it as PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have seen these questions asked a million times, and I have a heard a million different answers, so here goes.

Scenario 1: [Two private pilots building XC time] I understand that the safety pilot can log PIC time while the other is under the hood, but can he also log XC time even though he does not takeoff the airplane at point A and land the airplane at point B?

No. The FAA Chief Counsel has made it very clear in series of decisions that the only pilot who may log cross country time is the one who is doing the flying from takeoff to touchdown. At the extreme, if two pilots fly a 1,000 mile cross country in a single leg and switch off at the 500 NM point, neither may log the cross country time.

You can start with the three issued in 2009, including the Gebhart letter (dealing primarily with safety pilots) and follow the chain down to the Hilliard opinion (neither of two pilots switching en route may log cross country)

Scenario 2: [Two private pilots, one with pax night currency, one without] Can I (not having my night currency) legally do three takeoffs and landings with another private pilot (having his night currency) to get current myself? In other words, can he act as PIC while I am logging the landings?

If you read 61.56 you'll see three things: (1) currency is only required for carrying passengers; (2) currency is only required when carrying passengers when acting as PIC; and (3) there is not one word that even remotely suggests that one pilot may not act as PIC while another does the takeoffs and landings.

And if so, can your logbook show that you did three landings while not logging any PIC time?

As Ron already said, why wouldn't you log the time as PIC? Sure, since logging time as PIC is optional anyway, you can probably leave it out, but if reviewed, it could lead to questions like, "Don't you understand that you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the control of an aircraft you are rated for, whether or not you are or are even capable of acting as PIC o the flight?"

 

[poadeleted20]

Scenario 2: [Two private pilots, one with pax night currency, one without] Can I (not having my night currency) legally do three takeoffs and landings with another private pilot (having his night currency) to get current myself?

Yes.

In other words, can he act as PIC while I am logging the landings?

Yes.

And if so, can your logbook show that you did three landings while not logging any PIC time?

I suppose so, but since you were the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you were rated, why not log it as PIC time? Otherwise, that might raise questions about whether or not you really were the sole manipulator, and you must be the sole manipulator to log the landings for 61.57 currency.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you read 61.56 you'll see three things: (1) currency is only required for carrying passengers; (2) currency is only required when carrying passengers when acting as PIC; and (3) there is not one word that even remotely suggests that one pilot may act as PIC while another does the takeoffs and landings.

I'm good with 1 and 2, but 3 has me confused. I would rather say there is nothing that says you may not act as PIC while someone else is manipulating the controls on a flight like this. OTOH, there is nothing that says the Private Pilot acting as PIC can log the time while another rated pilot is manipulating the controls in this situation (unless you're flying a Learjet or DC-3, which require two pilots).

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm good with 1 and 2, but 3 has me confused. I would rather say there is nothing that says you may not act as PIC while someone else is manipulating the controls on a flight like this. OTOH, there is nothing that says the Private Pilot acting as PIC can log the time while another rated pilot is manipulating the controls in this situation (unless you're flying a Learjet or DC-3, which require two pilots).

Typo corrected. Some day I should take a course

 

[spcalan1]

I have seen these questions asked a million times, and I have a heard a million different answers, so here goes.

Scenario 1: [Two private pilots building XC time] I understand that the safety pilot can log PIC time while the other is under the hood, but can he also log XC time even though he does not takeoff the airplane at point A and land the airplane at point B?

Scenario 2: [Two private pilots, one with pax night currency, one without] Can I (not having my night currency) legally do three takeoffs and landings with another private pilot (having his night currency) to get current myself? In other words, can he act as PIC while I am logging the landings? And if so, can your logbook show that you did three landings while not logging any PIC time?


Thanks.

I am fairly new pilot ( 150TT ).. and ultra-conservative.. here is my interpretation...

1. No... 61.1 'C' states : 'That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure. If you don't do the landing.. no xc time..
I do the safety pilot thing quite often... this is how we log it :

50nm trip...
Pilot 1 : Under the hood and flying.. Gets PIC, XC, and simulated instrument time...
Pilot 2 : Safety Pilot, Gets PIC.... no XC...

2. I say no again..
61.57 - No person may act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers, unless... 'night time current'.
Since you would not be night time current, you can either go solo, or with an instructor...

Again.. this is my interpretation...

 

[Larry in TN]

2. I say no again..
61.57 - No person may act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers, unless... 'night time current'.
Since you would not be night time current, you can either go solo, or with an instructor...

You are not required to ACT as PIC in order to LOG PIC nor are you required to ACT as PIC when you are LOGging your take-offs and landings for night currency.

The current pilot ACTs as PIC while the non-current pilot LOGs PIC and his three night take-offs and landings as sole-manipulator of the controls.

 

[Skip Miller]

2. I say no again..
61.57 - No person may act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers, unless... 'night time current'.
Since you would not be night time current, you can either go solo, or with an instructor...

Again.. this is my interpretation...

I think you are right.

That lump of flesh next to you is a passenger. And unless you are under the hood, he is not a required crew member. So you cannot act as PIC. 61.57, quoted above.

-Skip

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think you are right.

That lump of flesh next to you is a passenger. And unless you are under the hood, he is not a required crew member. So you cannot act as PIC. 61.57, quoted above.

-Skip

Given the scenario presented, that lump of flesh is NOT just a passenger. That lump of flesh is the legal PIC.

Acting vs logging.

 

[Jaybird180]

Given the scenario presented, that lump of flesh is NOT just a passenger. That lump of flesh is the legal PIC.

Acting vs logging.

Nope. No pax required. He can fly solo and do his 3 and be legal before and now legal to carry pax after.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you bring along someone else when you fly at night while not night current, there are three possibilities:

1. CFI giving you training: Neither of you need be night current (see Kortokrax interpretation) as long as nobody else is aboard. You log PIC time and landings as sole manipulator.
2. Pilot not CFI: Other pilot is PIC and you are a passenger, so other pilot must be fully PIC qualified including night currency. You still log PIC time and landings as sole manipulator.
3. Non-pilot: Not legal since you are PIC without being current to fly with passenger.

 

[david0tey]

Thanks all. And for the record, I understand that I don't need someone else with me to get my night currency back. I am just more comfortable flying with someone who is familiar with night ops.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If he IS the pilot in command, he can log pilot command during simulated instrument flight. He may also log cross-country time if the flight meets the requirements for cross-country time. It doesn't matter that he wasn't the one manipulating the controls.

Not true... The FAA has issued several interpretations stating that XC time can only be logged when one is a required crewmember for the entire flight, and since the safety pilot is not a required crewmember when the pilot flying isn't under the hood (takeoff, landing, taxiing, etc) they may not log XC. The Gebhart interpretation is the most on-point here.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not true... The FAA has issued several interpretations stating that XC time can only be logged when one is a required crewmember for the entire flight, and since the safety pilot is not a required crewmember when the pilot flying isn't under the hood (takeoff, landing, taxiing, etc) they may not log XC. The Gebhart interpretation is the most on-point here.

That interpretation says it depends on who's flying the plane, not who's required. The properly-rated sole manipulator of the controls for the whole flight can log the XC time whether s/he's required or not (e.g., no-medical rated pilot flying the plane with PIC-qualified safety pilot acting as PIC but not manipulating the controls).