ATP SEL to ATP MEL...Aug 1

James331 said:
Seaborne airlines in the USVI, pt121 twotters on straight floats. Fun job if you can live off regional pay in that very expensive area.
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Also in the Maldives. Chalks stopped in 2005. You're correct though, being operated under regulation that requires an ATP - not many.
 
Ron Levy said:
OK, I got it half wrong.

What I got right is that if you've already passed the current "dual class" ATP-Airplane written before July 31, 2014, but do not take an ATP-Airplane practical test you can take the ATP-ME any time (including after Aug 1, 2014) within the 24 month expiration of that written. OTOH, if you already hold an ATP-SE, and do not pass the ATP-ME before August 1, 2014, you will have to do the 61.156 training and pass the new ATP-ME written (which will not be available until August 1, 2014) before taking your ME additional rating ride.

So, if you don't yet have your ATP, your best bet is to take and pass the current "dual class" ATP written before August 1, 2014, but do not take an ATP practical test until you are ready to do it in a twin. If you already have an ATP-SE, either get your ME additional rating before August 1, 2014, or you're going to have to do the 61.156 routine and take the new ATP-ME written.
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OK, I don't have an ATP (Comm-ASMEL-IA right now). I plan to take the ATP written by the end of July.

Is there some reason I shouldn't add the ATP-ASEL before the ATP-AMEL? As long as I pass the ATP-AMEL ride within 2 years of the written shouldn't I still be OK?

Actually, now that I think about it, in this twisted morass, maybe not... As it'd then be an add-on and I'd have to take the checkride before this August. Right? What a craptastic mess.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
OK, I don't have an ATP (Comm-ASMEL-IA right now). I plan to take the ATP written by the end of July.

Is there some reason I shouldn't add the ATP-ASEL before the ATP-AMEL?
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Yes. Once you take the ATP-ASEL, 61.165(f)(2) will apply, and unless you do the ME additional rating ride before Aug 1, 2014, you'll have to do the 61.156 training and take/pass the new ATP-ME written available Aug 1.

As long as I pass the ATP-AMEL ride within 2 years of the written shouldn't I still be OK?
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NO! That's where that damn paragraph (f)(2) comes in. If you do not take the SE ATP ride, but instead wait and do your initial ATP in a twin and then add the ASEL later, you'll be able to do that without going through the extra hoops any time within 24 calendar months after taking the current ATP written. But once you get that ATP-ASEL, (f)(2) becomes applicable, and you'll have to do all that extra training and take another written before doing an ME additional rating ride (unless you add the ME before Aug 1).
Actually, now that I think about it, in this twisted morass, maybe not... As it'd then be an add-on and I'd have to take the checkride before this August. Right? What a craptastic mess.
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Agreed.
 
Summary of the thread: even if getting your ATP-ASEL sounds like a good idea because your ATP written results are burning a hole in your flight bag...DON'T DO IT!

...or at least not before knocking out your ATP-AMEL
 
Brad Z said:
Summary of the thread: even if getting your ATP-ASEL sounds like a good idea because your ATP written results are burning a hole in your flight bag...DON'T DO IT!

...or at least not before knocking out your ATP-AMEL
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Yup!!
 
Okay, one more. Someone has their ATP-R and wants there ATP-MEL. I assume their ATP written is still good for two years if taken by the dead line- or am I missing something?
 
Blackhawk said:
Okay, one more. Someone has their ATP-R and wants there ATP-MEL. I assume their ATP written is still good for two years if taken by the dead line- or am I missing something?
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You're missing 14 CFR 61.160(g):
(g) An airline transport pilot certificate obtained under this section is subject to the pilot in command limitations set forth in § 61.167(b) and must contain the following limitation, “Restricted in accordance with 14 CFR 61.167.” The pilot is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the limitation specified in this paragraph when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 and the age requirement of § 61.153(a)(1).
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If they have the ATP-MEL with restricted privileges issued under 61.160, they don't have to do any more training or take any more tests, just get older/obtain more experience, and then fill out and submit an 8710-1 -- the issuance of a new ATP-AMEL without the restriction is then automatic, and there is no time limit from passing the ATP-AMEL written/practical tests to when you upgrade the restricted certificate. Note also that there's no such thing as a single engine ATP with restricted privileges.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
So what is ATP-R?
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ATP with multiengine rating and restricted privileges -- see 14 CFR 61.160 and 61.167.
(b) Limitations. A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has not satisfied the age requirement of § 61.153(a)(1) and the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 may not:
(1) Act as pilot in command in operations conducted under part 121, § 91.1053(a)(2)(i), or § 135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or
(2) Serve as second in command in flag or supplemental operations in part 121 of this chapter requiring three or more pilots.
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Blackhawk said:
Okay, one more. Someone has their ATP-R and wants there ATP-MEL. I assume their ATP written is still good for two years if taken by the dead line- or am I missing something?
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OK, now I get it -- you're talking about someone with an ATP-RH (Rotorcraft-Helicopter, there being no other class available in that category) trying to add an Airplane Multiengine class rating. In that case, no, their old pre-Aug 1 ATP written will be useless. If they don't get their airplane multiengine class rating added to their ATP before August 1, they will have to do the 61.156 training, the new ATP-ME written that becomes available on that date, and the ATP-ME additional rating practical test. See 61.165(c) for details.
 
Ron Levy said:
OK, now I get it -- you're talking about someone with an ATP-RH (Rotorcraft-Helicopter, there being no other class available in that category) trying to add an Airplane Multiengine class rating. In that case, no, their old pre-Aug 1 ATP written will be useless. If they don't get their airplane multiengine class rating added to their ATP before August 1, they will have to do the 61.156 training, the new ATP-ME written that becomes available on that date, and the ATP-ME additional rating practical test. See 61.165(c) for details.
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So they can't just take the written by 1 August? What is the reference?
Thanks!
 
Blackhawk said:
So they can't just take the written by 1 August?
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No -- the new ATP-ME written won't be available until Aug 1, so you can't take it until then.
What is the reference?
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Reference is as cited above -- 61.165(c).
(c) Airplane category rating with a multiengine class rating. A person applying for an airline transport certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating who holds an airline transport certificate with another aircraft category rating must:
(1) Meet the eligibility requirements of Sec. 61.153 of this part;
(2) After July 31, 2014, successfully complete the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in § 61.156;
(3) Pass a knowledge test for an airplane category multiengine class rating or type rating on the aeronautical knowledge areas of § 61.155(c);
(4) Comply with the requirements in Sec. 61.157(b) of this part, if appropriate;
(5) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159 or § 61.160; and
(6) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation of Sec. 61.157(e)(2) of this part.
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Since the current ATP written isn't ME-specific, per subparagraph (3), that old non-class-specific test will not be valid for ATP-ME after July 31. This is confirmed with AFS-800.
 
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Ron Levy said:
No -- the new ATP-ME written won't be available until Aug 1, so you can't take it until then.
Reference is as cited above -- 61.165(c).
Since the current ATP written isn't ME-specific, per subparagraph (3), that old non-class-specific test will not be valid for ATP-ME after July 31. This is confirmed with AFS-800.
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Palm slap. I was looking at 61.156.
 
Okay, I am really confused now. Please help.

I currently hold an ATP-Helicopter certificate with ASEL and ASES commercial privileges. I'd like to add ATP-AMEL. I have about 10 hours of multiengine dual received back in 1996, but it's not PIC time since I did not (and still do not) have a multiengine rating. I have about 1,500 hours PIC in single-engine airplanes.

1) To earn the ATP-AMEL without the airline training course, would I have to first add an AMEL rating with private or commercial privileges and afterward log 50 hours multiengine PIC? (I don't have any SIC options available to me.)

2) Would all of this--and the ATP-AMEL practical test--have to be completed before Aug. 1?

3) Does 61.165(c)(3) ("Pass a knowledge test for an airplane category multiengine class rating or type rating on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c)...") actually mean that I CANNOT do this before August even if I wanted to, since the multiengine knowledge test is not yet available? In other words, is an ATP-Helicopter certificate holder currently BLOCKED from earning an ATP-AMEL until August?

4) If I later want to add ATP-ASEL, ASES, and even AMES at some point just for fun, does the August deadline have any effect on me? (Honestly, though, I can't think of any practical reason to spend the money on the written and practical tests other than just for kicks.)
 
I think Ed should make a flowchart for this.
 
Johann said:
I think Ed should make a flowchart for this.
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A flowchart would be cool, but I guess I'm wondering whether I need to go buy an Apache or a Seminole this weekend. Not kidding.
 
desertav8r said:
If you can get it before August 1st. I would.
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Right, but--per my question 3--I'm not sure that's even possible under the current reg. That is, I'm not sure I could do it even if had the hours, since I cannot sit for a written test that hasn't been developed yet. Any FAR wonks who could lend some advice??
 
You can get one under the current regs right now. Wait and who knows how bad it's going to suck.
 
FlingWing said:
A flowchart would be cool, but I guess I'm wondering whether I need to go buy an Apache or a Seminole this weekend. Not kidding.
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Looks like the FAA already made a flowchart, but I believe it would not apply for those already holding ATP certificates. See http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/ATP_AME_Job_Aid_GA.pdf

Again, I'm not sure that it is currently possible for ATP-Helicopter pilots to take an ATP-AMEL checkride period, since they cannot take the required written test until August.

PLEASE HELP!
 
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FlingWing said:
That's the problem. I'm not sure whether I really can or not if I cannot take the written test until August.
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Isn't that a question you can ask the proctor, or the individual that administers the tests? I can't imagine you could not take the test.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Isn't that a question you can ask the proctor, or the individual that administers the tests? I can't imagine you could not take the test.
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Yes, I could certainly take the current SE & ME combination written test, but the reg seems to be already requiring the new, yet-to-be-developed ME test.
 
FlingWing said:
I currently hold an ATP-Helicopter certificate with ASEL and ASES commercial privileges. I'd like to add ATP-AMEL. I have about 10 hours of multiengine dual received back in 1996, but it's not PIC time since I did not (and still do not) have a multiengine rating. I have about 1,500 hours PIC in single-engine airplanes.

1) To earn the ATP-AMEL without the airline training course, would I have to first add an AMEL rating with private or commercial privileges and afterward log 50 hours multiengine PIC? (I don't have any SIC options available to me.)
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Yes. See 61.165(c) and by reference from there, 61.159(a)(3).

2) Would all of this--and the ATP-AMEL practical test--have to be completed before Aug. 1?
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Yes, if you want to avoid the new ATP-AME written and 61.156 training requirement which go into effect on that date. See 61.165(c)(2).

3) Does 61.165(c)(3) ("Pass a knowledge test for an airplane category multiengine class rating or type rating on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c)...") actually mean that I CANNOT do this before August even if I wanted to, since the multiengine knowledge test is not yet available? In other words, is an ATP-Helicopter certificate holder currently BLOCKED from earning an ATP-AMEL until August?
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No -- if you can complete the AMEL before August 1, you need only take the current ATP-Airplane written. However, that written test result turns into a pumpkin at midnight on July 31.

4) If I later want to add ATP-ASEL, ASES, and even AMES at some point just for fun, does the August deadline have any effect on me?
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If you get your ATP-AMEL before August 1, you can add the AMES later without going through the new ATP-AME written or the 61.156 training. Ditto adding ASEL or ASES later -- no additional written required. See 14 CFR 61.165(e).

However, if you're going to do all this by August 1, you'd better get on your horse and out your checkbook. ;)
 
FlingWing said:
Yes, I could certainly take the current SE & ME combination written test, but the reg seems to be already requiring the new, yet-to-be-developed ME test.
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I asked AFS-800. There is no moratorium on ATP-AME practical tests pending the new written. However, anyone who doesn't complete the ATP-AME by Aug 1 will have to do both the 61.156 training and the new written, so there may be an effective stoppage on ATP-AME practical tests for a short period starting August 1.
 
I gave you the answer. Do it now under the current regs.
 
You guys have been very helpful. Props to Ron. I guess I'll need to buy that horse and get on it. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
I asked AFS-800. There is no moratorium on ATP-AME practical tests pending the new written. However, anyone who doesn't complete the ATP-AME by Aug 1 will have to do both the 61.156 training and the new written, so there may be an effective stoppage on ATP-AME practical tests for a short period starting August 1.
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Is that only for adding on AMEL to an existing ATP? The flow chart linked above shows that for people applying for an initial ATP, taking the written before Aug 1 is still good for 2 years and you can take the checkride based on that.

It's an important distinction.
 
RussR said:
Is that only for adding on AMEL to an existing ATP? The flow chart linked above shows that for people applying for an initial ATP, taking the written before Aug 1 is still good for 2 years and you can take the checkride based on that.
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That's not the way I read that decision tree. As I read the post-July 31 decision tree (the second one), the only way you can take the ATP-AME practical test after August 1 with a pre-Aug 1 ATP-Airplane written test result is via the military or commercial operator exceptions, and clearly the person asking the questions I answered in post #68 does not meet those exceptions.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not the way I read that decision tree. As I read the post-July 31 decision tree (the second one), the only way you can take the ATP-AME practical test after August 1 with a pre-Aug 1 ATP-Airplane written test result is via the military or commercial operator exceptions, and clearly the person asking the questions I answered in post #68 does not meet those exceptions.
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It is quite confusing, since the pre-Aug 1 decision tree says nothing about those already holding an ATP, either in the airplane category or in some other category, and the post-Aug 1 decision tree just points back to the pre-Aug 1 tree if the applicant passed the written before August 1.

I suppose the examiner is supposed to separately figure that out based on the regs???
 
By the way, I'm already shopping for an Apache. Sure would be nice to only have to take the written by July 31, but again, that doesn't seem to cut it. Why, oh, why did I already earn an ATP? For the first time ever, I wish I didn't have it.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not the way I read that decision tree. As I read the post-July 31 decision tree (the second one), the only way you can take the ATP-AME practical test after August 1 with a pre-Aug 1 ATP-Airplane written test result is via the military or commercial operator exceptions, and clearly the person asking the questions I answered in post #68 does not meet those exceptions.
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(For others' clarification - for this part of the sub-thread we're talking about those WITHOUT an existing ATP in some other class.)

Ron, here's how I read it, I thought it was pretty straightforward, so I'd be interested in your take. I will use me as the example (I have no ATP of any sort, do not yet have 1500 hours but closing in, can take the ATP written before July 31, and will take the ATP-AMEL checkride AFTER July 31st but within 24 months of the written test)

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/ATP_AME_Job_Aid_GA.pdf

Using the second decision tree, the one for checkrides AFTER July 31st, on page 4 of the document:

Is today's date after July 31, 2014 - YES
(Follow the arrow down)
Has the applicant completed the ATP CTP? - NO
(Follow the arrow to the right)
Has the applicant passed the ATP knowledge test before Aug 1, 2014 - YES
(Follow the arrow up)
See Decision Tree: ATP ..... before July 31, 2014 (meaning the other tree)

Okay, entering the other tree:
Did the applicant take the ATP knowledge test before Aug 1, 2014 - YES
(follow arrow down)
Has the applicant passed the ATP knowledge test? - YES
(follow arrow down)
Has the applicant passed the ATP knowledge test within the preceding 24 calendar months? - YES
(follow arrow down)
The practical test can be administered.

So that take us right back to what we originally thought months ago, that if you pass the ATP test before July 31st, you then are fine to take the ATP-AMEL checkride within the next 24 months without doing the new ATP-CTP program.

It seems like a pretty logical flow through the chart, we don't even get to any of the military and other questions.

Where do we differ?
 
FlingWing said:
It is quite confusing, since the pre-Aug 1 decision tree says nothing about those already holding an ATP, either in the airplane category or in some other category, and the post-Aug 1 decision tree just points back to the pre-Aug 1 tree if the applicant passed the written before August 1.
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That's not quite true. Suggest reviewing it again.
 
RussR said:
(For others' clarification - for this part of the sub-thread we're talking about those WITHOUT an existing ATP in some other class.)

Ron, here's how I read it, I thought it was pretty straightforward, so I'd be interested in your take. I will use me as the example (I have no ATP of any sort, do not yet have 1500 hours but closing in, can take the ATP written before July 31, and will take the ATP-AMEL checkride AFTER July 31st but within 24 months of the written test)

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/ATP_AME_Job_Aid_GA.pdf

Using the second decision tree, the one for checkrides AFTER July 31st, on page 4 of the document:

Is today's date after July 31, 2014 - YES
(Follow the arrow down)
Has the applicant completed the ATP CTP? - NO
(Follow the arrow to the right)
Has the applicant passed the ATP knowledge test before Aug 1, 2014 - YES
(Follow the arrow up)
See Decision Tree: ATP ..... before July 31, 2014 (meaning the other tree)
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Must be a mistake in the tree, because it doesn't match the regulations. As I said, I confirmed this situation with AFS-800. I'll bring this to their attention and report back.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Yes. See 61.165(c) and by reference from there, 61.159(a)(3).

Yes, if you want to avoid the new ATP-AME written and 61.156 training requirement which go into effect on that date. See 61.165(c)(2).

No -- if you can complete the AMEL before August 1, you need only take the current ATP-Airplane written. However, that written test result turns into a pumpkin at midnight on July 31.

If you get your ATP-AMEL before August 1, you can add the AMES later without going through the new ATP-AME written or the 61.156 training. Ditto adding ASEL or ASES later -- no additional written required. See 14 CFR 61.165(e).

However, if you're going to do all this by August 1, you'd better get on your horse and out your checkbook. ;)
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No written maybe required, but recently two friends of mine have been shot down trying to add ASES to their current ATP AMEL certificate. They were informed that they needed 50 hours in category & class before being eligible to take the ATP practical for that category & class. They both had ATP MEL, COM SEL and were attempting to add ATP SES and were denied because they lacked 50 hours in that category and class.
 
CFI AandP said:
No written maybe required, but recently two friends of mine have been shot down trying to add ASES to their current ATP AMEL certificate. They were informed that they needed 50 hours in category & class before being eligible to take the ATP practical for that category & class. They both had ATP MEL, COM SEL and were attempting to add ATP SES and were denied because they lacked 50 hours in that category and class.
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That's correct. §61.165(e)(3) points to §61.159(a)(3), which requires "50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought...."

Interestingly, though, it appears that time does NOT have to be PIC time, so I think my 10 hours of twin dual received from 18 years ago should still count.

Ron, does that seem right to you?
 
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