ATP SEL to ATP MEL...Aug 1

[Grizzly]

Please excuse me if this was covered before - I didn't see it in my search. I hold an ATP SEL which I got to essentially keep from having to take the written again until I get in a sim for a type (which is likely next winter). I'm hearing from some that the new ATP requirements will mean that even though I hold an SEL ATP and have a few thousand hours in the right seat of a part 121 jet from a few years ago (I am not currently employed by a 121 or 135 operator), I'll need to go through all the new training if I don't get the MEL ATP before August 1 - does anyone know if this is true? If it is, it sure seems rather redundant and expensive for someone who's had essentially all the training and simulator time already.

Yes, I have passed this question by 2 FSDO inspectors and even they are not 100% confident that they have the answer. Any insights would be appreciated.

 

[Blackhawk]

Please excuse me if this was covered before - I didn't see it in my search. I hold an ATP SEL which I got to essentially keep from having to take the written again until I get in a sim for a type (which is likely next winter). I'm hearing from some that the new ATP requirements will mean that even though I hold an SEL ATP and have a few thousand hours in the right seat of a part 121 jet from a few years ago (I am not currently employed by a 121 or 135 operator), I'll need to go through all the new training if I don't get the MEL ATP before August 1 - does anyone know if this is true? If it is, it sure seems rather redundant and expensive for someone who's had essentially all the training and simulator time already.

Yes, I have passed this question by 2 FSDO inspectors and even they are not 100% confident that they have the answer. Any insights would be appreciated.

The 1 August deadline applies to the written test only:
61.153
"...
(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;"


61.155
"...d) An applicant who successfully completes the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate prior to August 1, 2014, must successfully complete the practical test within 24 months from the month in which the knowledge test was successfully completed. An applicant who passes the knowledge test prior to August 1, 2014, but fails to successfully complete the practical test within 24 months must complete the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 and retake the knowledge test prior to applying for the practical test."


My emphasis.

 

[ja_user]

Take the written by then, and then take the checkride before the written expires.

 

[Brad Z]

The 1 August deadline applies to the written test only:
61.153
"...
(e) After July 31, 2014, for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate obtained concurrently with an airplane type rating, receive a graduation certificate from an authorized training provider certifying completion of the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 before applying for the knowledge test required by paragraph (g) of this section;"


61.155
"...d) An applicant who successfully completes the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate prior to August 1, 2014, must successfully complete the practical test within 24 months from the month in which the knowledge test was successfully completed. An applicant who passes the knowledge test prior to August 1, 2014, but fails to successfully complete the practical test within 24 months must complete the airline transport pilot certification training program specified in §61.156 and retake the knowledge test prior to applying for the practical test."


My emphasis.

What if the OP took the knowledge test prior to 8/1/2012? In that case, it sounds like he would not be grandfathered. Usually the knowledge test is "locked in" once you get your initial ATP, but in this case, the added section:

(d) An applicant who successfully completes the knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate prior to August 1, 2014, must successfully complete the practical test within 24 months from the month in which the knowledge test was successfully completed.

...seems to suggest that you still need a knowledge test completed 24 months prior to the multi ATP checkride or the new requirements kick in.

 

[Brad Z]

Take the written by then, and then take the checkride before the written expires.

But he's already taken the written and holds an ATP certificate (albeit SEL).

 

[ja_user]

I see what you are saying, I missed he had ATP already. Even though it was clearly stated.

He may be screwed, if he doesn't complete it before Aug 1st. Although there is still just one written, so I am not sure why anyone would be required to actually take it for a SEL to MEL conversion? Just to prove you had done the ground school?

 

[Brad Z]

Simplest solution is to take a quicky multi ATP program before August. You can knock it out at TraverseAir in Michigan over a long weekend.

 

[Blackhawk]

The thing is I see absolutely nothing in the regulations about a restriction on taking a practical test without the additional training. The only restriction is taking a written test without the additional training.
This makes sense. Why make someone who may have gone through the training already do it again?

 

[ja_user]

So get your ATP SEL now and never have to comply with this regulation? This regulation doesn't even apply to the ATP SEL, so that doesn't make much sense either...

 

[hindsight2020]

But he's already an ATP. Doesn't the whole "new training before you can take an atp written and practical" kabuki only apply to initial ATPs? Isn't an ATP MEL add-on merely demonstrating the multi-engine stuff to ATP standards? I'm too lazy to look it up myself so i'm offering constructive uneducated conjecturing instead

 

[Greg Bockelman]

He may be screwed, if he doesn't complete it before Aug 1st.

Why? He has already taken the written. He has the SE ATP to prove it. Worst case scenario as I see it is that he has until August 1, 2016 to get the ride done.

 

[ja_user]

But my understanding is that the ATP SEL will never require this additional ground school.

Do I have that wrong?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It would appear that the requirements only apply toward ME ATP. SE ATP should not change.

 

[ja_user]

It would appear that the requirements only apply toward ME ATP. SE ATP should not change.

So, if I can go get an ATP SEL after the change.... Then it has to be either,

A. I have to go do the ground work and then take the written, even though a written isn't required today to go from a SEL to MEL ATP.

B. They are going to allow this without the written/ground school? Not likely, because everyone would just do their SEL ATP first.

C. Come up with some other piece of paper to turn in at your checkride, that shows you passed the required Ground? But the rules say the Ground is just required to take the written, not the checkride?

 

[poadeleted20]

The thing is I see absolutely nothing in the regulations about a restriction on taking a practical test without the additional training. The only restriction is taking a written test without the additional training.

Correct as far as taking an initial ATP ride. Of course, after July 31, 2014, there will no longer be the option to take the current "dual-use" ATP written, but if you take the current one before then, it's good for both SE and ME until it expires 24 calendar months after you took it as long as you get the ME first.

 

[poadeleted20]

So get your ATP SEL now and never have to comply with this regulation?

No. Get your ATP written now, and it's good for 24 months for ATP-ME, but don't do the ATP-SE practical test before the ME unless you'll get the ME done before August 1.

This regulation doesn't even apply to the ATP SEL, so that doesn't make much sense either...

It's the FAA -- you don't have to understand why it is this way, just know how to comply with it.

 

[poadeleted20]

But he's already an ATP. Doesn't the whole "new training before you can take an atp written and practical" kabuki only apply to initial ATPs?

No. If you already hold an ATP but not an ME class rating, if you go for the ME ride after July 31, 2014, you will have to first do the 61.156 training and pass the new ATP-ME written.

Isn't an ATP MEL add-on merely demonstrating the multi-engine stuff to ATP standards?

It's more than just ME "stuff", as you must demonstrate instrument procedures on the ride, and you have to answer a lot of systems questions during the ground portion, but you're more or less correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why? He has already taken the written. He has the SE ATP to prove it. Worst case scenario as I see it is that he has until August 1, 2016 to get the ride done.

You'd think that, but Barbara Adams in AFS-280 wrote the new rule otherwise.

 

[poadeleted20]

But my understanding is that the ATP SEL will never require this additional ground school.

Apparently not. If you already have an ATP but not an ME rating, and don't add that rating before August 1, you will have to do the 61.156 training and take the ATP-ME written before taking the ME additional rating ride.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, if I can go get an ATP SEL after the change.... Then it has to be either,

A. I have to go do the ground work and then take the written, even though a written isn't required today to go from a SEL to MEL ATP.

B. They are going to allow this without the written/ground school? Not likely, because everyone would just do their SEL ATP first.

C. Come up with some other piece of paper to turn in at your checkride, that shows you passed the required Ground? But the rules say the Ground is just required to take the written, not the checkride?

If you have not taken the current "dual class" ATP written by August 1, 2014, you will have to take one (or both) of the "split class" writtens in order to get your ATP (depending on which class rating you want). In that case, if you ever want to get an AME class rating on your ATP, you will have to take the ATP-ME written, and that means complying with the special 61.156 training before you take that ATP-ME written.

You can still take the current ATP-Airplane written now through July 31, 2014, and it will be good for both SE and ME classes for 24 calendar months after you take it as long as you take the ME ride first. However, if you don't get your initial ATP-Airplane before that written expires, you would have to go back and do the class-specific written, including completing the 61.156 training if you want to take the ATP ME written.

 

[James331]

Why did you get a ATP SEL?

The ATP SE doesn't do anything, doesn't hold your place in line, lock in tests or really serve a purpose in general.


Anyways, you're going to need to get the written done (again) ATP inc has a one day cram course / get er' done written for the ATP.

Go get that done before the deadline and move on.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why did you get a ATP SEL?

Maybe because, like me, the OP just wanted to do it and could.

Anyways, you're going to need to get the written done (again)

Not if one has passed the current "dual class" ATP written before July 1, 2014 and completes an initial ATP-Airplane practical test in a ME Airplane class before that written expires.

 

[James331]

I'm guessing if he wants he is multi engine ATP he's going to need to take that test again if its been over 2yrs.

Read
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.225.pdf

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm guessing if he wants he is multi engine ATP he's going to need to take that test again if its been over 2yrs.

Read
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.225.pdf

Yep, that's what it sounds like. That seems to be contradictory though, because my understanding is that under the old rules, if you had an ATP-Ariplane (SE or ME) already, you wouldn't need to re-take the written to take the checkride for the other.

Who knows, if I were the OP I would just suck it up and re-take the written before July 31st and call it a day.

 

[RussR]

Ron, what about 61.165(f)2?

(f) Adding a multiengine class rating or airplane type rating to an airline transport pilot certificate with a single engine class rating. A person applying to add a multiengine class rating or airplane type rating to an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category single engine class rating must—
(1) Meet the eligibility requirements of §61.153;
(2) After July 31, 2014, pass a required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c), as applicable to multiengine airplanes;
(3) Comply with the requirements in §61.157(b), if applicable;
(4) Meet the applicable aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159; and
(5) Pass a practical test on the areas of operation of §61.157(e)(2).

Maybe because, like me, the OP just wanted to do it and could.

Not if one already holds an ATP with ASEL or ASES rating earned before July 1, 2014, or has passed the current "dual class" ATP written before July 1, 2014 and completes an initial ATP-Airplane practical test in any Airplane class before that written expires.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, what about 61.165(f)2?

(f) Adding a multiengine class rating or airplane type rating to an airline transport pilot certificate with a single engine class rating. A person applying to add a multiengine class rating or airplane type rating to an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category single engine class rating must—
(1) Meet the eligibility requirements of §61.153;
(2) After July 31, 2014, pass a required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c), as applicable to multiengine airplanes;
(3) Comply with the requirements in §61.157(b), if applicable;
(4) Meet the applicable aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159; and
(5) Pass a practical test on the areas of operation of §61.157(e)(2).

OK, I got it half wrong.

What I got right is that if you've already passed the current "dual class" ATP-Airplane written before July 31, 2014, but do not take an ATP-Airplane practical test you can take the ATP-ME any time (including after Aug 1, 2014) within the 24 month expiration of that written. OTOH, if you already hold an ATP-SE, and do not pass the ATP-ME before August 1, 2014, you will have to do the 61.156 training and pass the new ATP-ME written (which will not be available until August 1, 2014) before taking your ME additional rating ride.

The FAA's position is based on the idea that nobody needs an ATP other than for a Part 121 operation (which isn't quite true, but close), and that the 61.156 training and ATP ride will be provided by the operator as part of initial training with the company. Whether the regional airlines buy into that idea or not remains to be seen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

So, if you don't yet have your ATP, your best bet is to take and pass the current "dual class" ATP written before August 1, 2014, but do not take an ATP practical test until you are ready to do it in a twin. If you already have an ATP-SE, either get your ME additional rating before August 1, 2014, or you're going to have to do the 61.156 routine and take the new ATP-ME written.

I know this sounds bizarre, but I discussed this with both AFS-600 and AFS-800, and they confirmed this anomaly. They said it was created by Barbara Adams in AFS-280, and it was a fight they could not win, so they just let it go.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Glad I've got both already.

 

[Sluggo63]

OK, I got it half wrong.

What I got right is that if you've already passed the current "dual class" ATP-Airplane written before July 31, 2014, but do not take an ATP-Airplane practical test you can take the ATP-ME any time (including after Aug 1, 2014) within the 24 month expiration of that written. OTOH, if you already hold an ATP-SE, and do not pass the ATP-ME before August 1, 2014, you will have to do the 61.156 training and pass the new ATP-ME written (which will not be available until August 1, 2014) before taking your ME additional rating ride.

The FAA's position is based on the idea that nobody needs an ATP other than for a Part 121 operation (which isn't quite true, but close), and that the 61.156 training and ATP ride will be provided by the operator as part of initial training with the company. Whether the regional airlines buy into that idea or not remains to be seen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

So, if you don't yet have your ATP, your best bet is to take and pass the current "dual class" ATP written before August 1, 2014, but do not take an ATP practical test until you are ready to do it in a twin. If you already have an ATP-SE, either get your ME additional rating before August 1, 2014, or you're going to have to do the 61.156 routine and take the new ATP-ME written.

I know this sounds bizarre, but I discussed this with both AFS-600 and AFS-800, and they confirmed this anomaly. They said it was created by Barbara Adams in AFS-280, and it was a fight they could not win, so they just let it go.

Okay, a little bit of thread hijack, so I apologize.

I want to go the other way... I have an ATP/MEL, with only private privileges for SEL. I want to "clean up" my license and get an ATP/SEL. Does this 1 August rule change anything for someone in my situation? I'm trying to get it done by the end of the summer, but in case I don't, I don't want to make more work for myself if I don't have to.

Thanks!

 

[poadeleted20]

I want to go the other way... I have an ATP/MEL, with only private privileges for SEL. I want to "clean up" my license and get an ATP/SEL. Does this 1 August rule change anything for someone in my situation?

No. If you already hold an ATP-AMEL, even after Aug 1, 2014, you will not need to take another written unless you want to add Rotorcraft-Helicopter to the party at the ATP level, and there is nothing like the 61.156 training required for the ATP-SE at all. The only possible question I have is whether you'd need to do that ME stuff to add an AMES to your AMEL at the ATP level, and I'll check on that tomorrow.

 

[Sluggo63]

No. If you already hold an ATP-AMEL, even after Aug 1, 2014, you will not need to take another written unless you want to add Rotorcraft-Helicopter to the party at the ATP level, and there is nothing like the 61.156 training required for the ATP-SE at all. The only possible question I have is whether you'd need to do that ME stuff to add an AMES to your AMEL at the ATP level, and I'll check on that tomorrow.

Thanks, I don't know if AMES is something I'd ever do (it'd still be good to know, just in case), but ASES is definitely on the list in the future. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Brad Z]

Yeah, you'll never know when you need that coveted Multiengine seaplane ATP ticket.

 

[Grizzly]

Thank you all for your input.

 

[GCA319]

Take the written by then, and then take the checkride before the written expires.

But he already has a Single engine ATP, so he won't need to take a written. Iirc, the only new requirement he'll have to meet after 8/1 is 50 hours of AMEL time to satisfy the new requirement of 50 category and class to qualify for the ATP.

 

[GCA319]

Correct as far as taking an initial ATP ride. Of course, after June 30, 2014, there will no longer be the option to take the current "dual-use" ATP written, but if you take the current one before then, it's good for both SE and ME until it expires 24 calendar months after you took it as long as you get the ME first.

Don't you mean July 31st? If not, can you provide a source?

 

[poadeleted20]

Don't you mean July 31st?

Yes, and I've corrected that post accordingly.

 

[poadeleted20]

But he already has a Single engine ATP, so he won't need to take a written.

That is true if you take the ATP-ME ride before August 1, 2014, but after that, you will have to do the 61.156 training and take the new ATP-ME written before doing the ME additional rating practical test. See 61.165(f)(2) for the regulatory requirement, and I've confirmed with both AFS-800 and AFS-600 that this bizarre situation is what the new regs require.

 

[CFI AandP]

Yeah, you'll never know when you need that coveted Multiengine seaplane ATP ticket.

I use mine all the time. There are multi engine seaplanes out there. Currently there are about 800 pilots with the ATP-AMES rating in the registry.

 

[James331]

Also lest we forget you will need 50hrs in class before the ride (I.e. 50 hrs multi land before you can get your ATP-MEL).

I did mine before that rule change (July of last year), my ATP-MEL was also my initial multi That ain't happening anymore

 

[Brad Z]

I use mine all the time. There are multi engine seaplanes out there.

That the operation couldn't be done with a Commercial Multi-engine Sea?

How many 10 passenger or turbine multi-engine aircraft on floats in 135 or 121 service? I know there are a few Beavers and Grummans still in service, but not many. Just curious.

 

[James331]

That the operation couldn't be done with a Commercial Multi-engine Sea?

How many 10 passenger or turbine multi-engine aircraft on floats in 135 or 121 service? I know there are a few Beavers and Grummans still in service, but not many. Just curious.

Seaborne airlines in the USVI, pt121 twotters on straight floats. Fun job if you can live off regional pay in that very expensive area.