Columbia Lancair Down on Long Island

It will be very interesting to see this guys flying history....

Was he a low time pilot ???

Did he just buy this 1/2 million dollar plane that probably has top of the line avionics and an auto pilot, that once engaged should have kept him alive ?

:dunno:
 
Unfortunately, accidents like this happen and will happen again. As far as using the auto pilot scenario, many years ago I had a particular student. His motivation was to get his certificate and use it to travel for his business. After he passed his check ride, he asked me about a C-182 he was looking at. I went with him and did an evaluation flight. Nicely equipped 182, very nice coupled A/P, storm scope, LORAN. It was a very sturdy platform for IFR flying. Long story short, he bought it. One of the first things we went through after I gave him 5 hours of dual was how to use the A/P. We went through several scenarios, including unintentional VFR into IMC conditions. Also using the LORAN, especially how to find the nearest airport. I started instrument training with him in it. Several times I flew him to a business destination when he would have been unable to complete the flight VFR. Training took longer than expected due to a large increase in business for him, but I kept after him, even suggesting he look into accelerated courses. Then I left the area for a better paying job. Several months later I was looking at the NTSB accident reports and came across a familiar N number. As I read the report, I then recognized the number. Seems like this guy was flying to a business meeting. During the flight he went VFR into IMC conditions. He immediately got on the radio, confessed, and asked for help. He was too low to be picked up by radar but the controllers were still helping, trying to locate him. It is possible he was using the LORAN trying to get to a VFR airport, and descended into a mountain lake, ending all of his dreams, ambitions and future.

He was over a hilly area and the weather in that area was down to the ground. I can only speculate from here, but it appears like he did everything right after he entered the clouds. Sounds like he turned on the A/P, made a 180, got on the radio and confessed, but tried to descend to find better visibility. The A/P could be coupled to the LORAN, or VOR, or heading bug. It also had altitude hold. But the accident still happened.

In the NTSB report it was noted that he had called FSS several times requesting updated weather along his intended route. He delayed departure by about 6 hours waiting for the weather to clear as forecasted. I am sure GET-THERE-ITUS had a lot to do with his decision making because of the need to conduct business.

I was not his last instructor, but reading about the accident did bother me, until I read about JFK jr and his last flight realizing that he probably did not know how to use the A/P.
 
As someone who has followed this thread from the beginning, it kind of sickens me how quick people here have been to pile on a dead pilot. OK, granted, it looks like some mistakes were made, as is the case in all accidents, otherwise there wouldn't be an accident. But really, do we already want to label the pilot as an improperly trained moron, as has been suggested? Oh right, you've read the news reports. Yeah, the same reports from news media that you regularly excoriate in other threads as idiotic and inaccurate. But for now, they'll do. Perhaps we should ask Deborah Hersman to step aside, in the interest of taxpayer dollars. Let's just let PoA members read the news reports and decide the cause of accidents. How expedient!

Part of me understands why people react the way they do to tragedy. Of course it's human nature to say, "Hey, it could never happen to me, I'm too smart, or too well-trained -- I would NEVER find myself in THAT situation." But did it ever occur to you guys that most of the people who end up as the subject of NTSB reports probably thought the same thing when they read accident reports? And maybe they could handle THAT situation but couldn't handle THIS situation that they found themselves in? Much as we like to think as pilots that we're prepared for the unexpected, there's always something that we haven't expected that could bite us.

Which brings me to another conclusion here. I'm amazed sometimes at the machismo and bravado of some of the posts. But hey, this is the Internet, and who knows if people are who they say they are. There's no doubt in my mind that for all those who have said things like "death happens," that it's not a big deal, that there isn't some airborne scenario that could possibly have you crying like a baby or screaming like a schoolgirl.

I can't imagine anything more terrifying than realizing my plane is totally out of control, and my last thought being before I hit the ground, "What the hell just happened?"

Have a little respect for the dead, folks.

My heart goes out to Mr. Hanan Shoshani, a father of five, and all of his survivors. I'm sure his day started out like so many of ours ...
 
Pull out a chart. Besides cfit in a glass cockpit and with terrain coloring is damn near impossible today. Different story back in the LORAN days. If you see yellow or red, pull up. But with foreflight and georeferenced sectionals and ifr low altitude charts, and the glass cockpit in a Columbia 400, like I said, you sort of have to try to have a cfit, even if you are disoriented and not sure where you are.
 
Dr. O said:
When you see something like this you have to look at our training syllabus. (not blaming the CFI )
Click to expand...

That kinds depends on where you train and how you were taught to tech weather.

If I am in trouble I am going full power and climbing out of here.
Click to expand...

This is scenario based, he can easy use such a method at a high altitude and pass out. Sometimes you actually want to descend.
 
frcabot said:
the glass cockpit in a Columbia 400, like I said, you sort of have to try to have a cfit, even if you are disoriented and not sure where you are.
Click to expand...

This is not CFIT. This is auguring it in.

image.JPG
 
Eagle I said:
As someone who has followed this thread from the beginning, it kind of sickens me how quick people here have been to pile on a dead pilot. OK, granted, it looks like some mistakes were made, as is the case in all accidents, otherwise there wouldn't be an accident. But really, do we already want to label the pilot as an improperly trained moron, as has been suggested? Oh right, you've read the news reports. Yeah, the same reports from news media that you regularly excoriate in other threads as idiotic and inaccurate. But for now, they'll do. Perhaps we should ask Deborah Hersman to step aside, in the interest of taxpayer dollars. Let's just let PoA members read the news reports and decide the cause of accidents. How expedient!
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that he is an improperly trained moron, for whatever reason he just clearly didn't get proper training in time.

Part of me understands why people react the way they do to tragedy. Of course it's human nature to say, "Hey, it could never happen to me, I'm too smart, or too well-trained -- I would NEVER find myself in THAT situation." But did it ever occur to you guys that most of the people who end up as the subject of NTSB reports probably thought the same thing when they read accident reports? And maybe they could handle THAT situation but couldn't handle THIS situation that they found themselves in? Much as we like to think as pilots that we're prepared for the unexpected, there's always something that we haven't expected that could bite us.

Which brings me to another conclusion here. I'm amazed sometimes at the machismo and bravado of some of the posts. But hey, this is the Internet, and who knows if people are who they say they are. There's no doubt in my mind that for all those who have said things like "death happens," that it's not a big deal, that there isn't some airborne scenario that could possibly have you crying like a baby or screaming like a schoolgirl.
Click to expand...

No one ever said that flying was safe, it isn't, people die doing it, it's not unusual. The reason we (most of us at least) discuss it is so we wouldn't do the same mistake.
 
MachFly said:
No one ever said that flying was safe, it isn't, people die doing it, it's not unusual. The reason we (most of us at least) discuss it is so we wouldn't do the same mistake.
Click to expand...

I agree that that's why we discuss accidents, so that we don't make the same mistakes. But some seem unusually harsh in their judgements, as though they couldn't possibly ever make such a mistake. Those are the people I have a problem with.

And if there's one lesson to be taken from this accident, it's clearly that one should not hesitate to declare an emergency if he or she is in trouble. Yet, I kind of understand. I was raised in a family where to admit one needs help is considered a sign of weakness. God forbid I should take that attitude into the cockpit!
 
Eagle I said:
I agree that that's why we discuss accidents, so that we don't make the same mistakes. But some seem unusually harsh in their judgements, as though they couldn't possibly ever make such a mistake. Those are the people I have a problem with.
Click to expand...

I agree. It's also an unhealthy and unsafe attitude: it can't happen to me. I assume it's either purely pride-driven or a reactive way to convince yourself this won't happen to you by labeling those as "idiots."

Most of the posts I've seen, however, are just trying to figure out what happened.
 
There was a story done by News 12 Long Island about the crash. One of my aviation professors at SUNY Farmingdale State College took a reporter to one of the high-tech flight simulators in the SUNY Flight Center at Republic Airport and explained in a simulator what happens when a pilot is caught flying VFR into IMC.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/f...ns-for-downed-east-patchogue-flight-1.8481578

Here is the link, but I think News 12 Long Island only allows you to watch the video and read the article once. The next time you see this article, I think you would need a subscription to News 12 Long Island in order to see the video and article again.
 
N918KT said:
There was a story done by News 12 Long Island about the crash. One of my aviation professors at SUNY Farmingdale State College took a reporter to one of the high-tech flight simulators in the SUNY Flight Center at Republic Airport and explained in a simulator what happens when a pilot is caught flying VFR into IMC.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/f...ns-for-downed-east-patchogue-flight-1.8481578

Here is the link, but I think News 12 Long Island only allows you to watch the video and read the article once. The next time you see this article, I think you would need a subscription to News 12 Long Island in order to see the video and article again.
Click to expand...

If the first link doesn't work, try this one:
http://longisland.news12.com/multimedia/pilot-lacked-visibility-during-islip-approach-1.8481635
 
He took off from KFRG heading east to KISP but he crashed in East Patchoque which is about 10 further east than KISP. The closest airports would have been Islip and Brookhaven.
Pilots that fly on Long Island for years know the Island's weather, especially dew point spreads. Before he took off he had to know it was iffy.
It's a shame he died. Pilots make their own decisions, good and bad.
 
IMHO, one takeaway from this crash is a reminder of the need for VFR pilots to practice getting out of IMC while on instruments. By making a 180 degree turn, for example.

Doing an adequate job of turning back would probably have been enough to keep the pilot alive, even if there were other factors involved in the crash.
 
N918KT said:
Can't access the second link you posted. You need to have a subscription to Optimum ID.
Click to expand...
My AdBlocker seems to have suppressed the popup/overlay. You're not missing much though. News lady hops in a sim for a few minutes, has trouble maintaining references in IMC.
 
Mike I said:
My AdBlocker seems to have suppressed the popup/overlay. You're not missing much though. News lady hops in a sim for a few minutes, has trouble maintaining references in IMC.
Click to expand...

I actually saw the video and the news article in the link I originally posted this afternoon. It is just that when I tried to watch it again the second time, it won't let me unless I subscribe to Optimum ID or News 12 Long Island website.
 
That controller should be held accountable for his inaction. The guy was in trouble. We have only seconds to take corrective action. He asked for help from the only person in the world in his corner at that time and was spat on.
 
SyrrThaddeus said:
That controller should be held accountable for his inaction. The guy was in trouble. We have only seconds to take corrective action. He asked for help from the only person in the world in his corner at that time and was spat on.
Click to expand...

Hell of a first post.
I assume you didn't read most of the thread?
 
Here's a story from when I was a brand new instrument pilot.

My wife and I rented a 172 and flew to Shreveport from Dallas. On the way back the weather was much worse than we predicted. I flew the whole way in bumpy IMC. By the time I was on the arrival I was already exhausted and my wife was really scared. The radio was on full blast with lots of aircraft stacked up for approaches. I had never really flown with so much traffic and they were vectoring the approaching aircraft in really tight, no fixes. Things were just happening much faster than I was used to in training. I shot the approach in KADS with traffic ahead of me sometimes getting in and sometimes missing. I get down to the bottom and miss, although in retrospect I could have landed legally, I just wasn't that sharp and played it conservative. My wife is freaking out, begging me not to go back into the clouds, etc. As soon as I go missed I guess the controller heard stress in my voice. Next thing I find a supervisor is working the frequency. He gives me some simple vectors, calms me down, tells me to take my time, brings me out further on the final approach course, talks slower, etc. I get it together, brief it really good, and I get in right at minimums, perfect. I never declared, never asked for help, never asked for special handling, nothing, they just heard the stress in my voice. They really did a great job that day.

I can only imagine what a VFR pilot in IMC is dealing with, but it must be terrifying. Sometimes a calm voice helping you organize your thoughts, suggesting some simple actions (turn on the autopilot, etc.), and providing simple navigation, can reduce the stress level enough that someone can respond and get it back together. These controllers really can help a lot, I can't help but think that those that say otherwise haven't been flying on enough bad weather days.
 
SyrrThaddeus said:
That controller should be held accountable for his inaction. The guy was in trouble. We have only seconds to take corrective action. He asked for help from the only person in the world in his corner at that time and was spat on.
Click to expand...

What inaction? Poor communication and decision making by the pilot. The pilot never said he was IMC or about to encounter IMC. The pilot said "no" when the controller asked if he was declaring an emergency. The controller attempted to get the aircraft's position to provide service but the pilot decided to go back to farmingdale. It's out of his hands at that point.

Clear communication. Tell the controller you are encountering IMC declaring an emergency and need assistance. Simple.
 
Damn... I know exactly who this guy was, I heard this guy on the air a bunch of times. I'm not sure his level of English, but he had communication issues with FRG controllers that I've personally heard in the past. He would be given ATC instructions and then either repeat it back wrong or worse, repeat it correctly, but not follow it and get yelled at. RIP

Why do people go up in such situations, especially knowing the weather and potential risks? Gotta be some kind of ego thing. And then people try blaming the controller? 100% pilot's fault, he should not have been up there. I'm only a student pilot, but I will never go up in questionable weather. I have a family to support, flying honestly isn't worth risking it all.
 
If you play with flying machines and you don't have the state control to handle stress you are going to die. Man has gotta know his limitations.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I can only imagine what a VFR pilot in IMC is dealing with, but it must be terrifying. Sometimes a calm voice helping you organize your thoughts, suggesting some simple actions (turn on the autopilot, etc.), and providing simple navigation, can reduce the stress level enough that someone can respond and get it back together. These controllers really can help a lot, I can't help but think that those that say otherwise haven't been flying on enough bad weather days.
Click to expand...

Having flown to every state in the CONUS, as well as Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas, I think I have a decent amount of experience with ATC and "bad weather days" (ever fly a CAT II ILS at 1200 RVR, or depart with 600 RVR?). To reiterate what so many others, including myself, have already said: the air traffic controller is not even partially at fault. He didn't get angry at the guy, he didn't ignore him, he asked all the right questions, but the accident pilot gave all the wrong answers ("no" to declaring) and decided to change frequencies anyway. Heck, the air traffic controller spent more time and put more effort into communicating than the pilot did. It's our responsibility as pilots to communicate when we need help and what it is we need help with, not ATC's responsibility to deduce by the tone of our voice. If I were to auger it in after departing into conditions I had no business flying in, I sure as heck wouldn't want someone pinning responsibility for my death on someone who had nothing to do with my bad decision, and who I gave very little opportunity to even assist me. Whatever, though. I'm gonna quit arguing before I get myself labeled as one of those people who freaks out every time someone is wrong on the internet. ;)
 
matthammer said:
Having flown to every state in the CONUS, as well as Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas, I think I have a decent amount of experience with ATC and "bad weather days" (ever fly a CAT II ILS at 1200 RVR, or depart with 600 RVR?). To reiterate what so many others, including myself, have already said: the air traffic controller is not even partially at fault. He didn't get angry at the guy, he didn't ignore him, he asked all the right questions, but the accident pilot gave all the wrong answers ("no" to declaring) and decided to change frequencies anyway. Heck, the air traffic controller spent more time and put more effort into communicating than the pilot did. It's our responsibility as pilots to communicate when we need help and what it is we need help with, not ATC's responsibility to deduce by the tone of our voice. If I were to auger it in after departing into conditions I had no business flying in, I sure as heck wouldn't want someone pinning responsibility for my death on someone who had nothing to do with my bad decision, and who I gave very little opportunity to even assist me. Whatever, though. I'm gonna quit arguing before I get myself labeled as one of those people who freaks out every time someone is wrong on the internet. ;)
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone has said he was wrong or responsible myself included. Where are you getting this?
 
I think Alex is saying that the controller could have been more helpful. The controller is not to blame and did everything right strictly speaking, but the pilot could be alive today if the controller had not just done the minimal and had detected that this pilot was in trouble (which we all can from listening to the tape).

Controllers can declare emergencies on behalf of pilots can they not? In this case if he had asked "Are you IMC Sir?" followed by "I'm declaring an emergency on your behalf fly heading xx and climb and maintain yy" may very well have saved a life.
 
Velocity173 said:
Probably from your post on page one???
Click to expand...

I said ATC could've and should've done more and I believe that. This isn't some chicken s ****ing contest about right or wrong or blaming someone. It's about everyone doing everything they can to increase safety and save lives. There is a difference.

If you read that link you asked me about there are controllers being recognized who found aircraft they knew might be in trouble just from primary radar, using other aircraft for on non-ATC frequencies, and saving them from this exact scenario.

My other point was every bad weather day pilots of all skill levels are receiving unsolicited help from ATC. I have been helped many times, including some situations that might have been fatal. Controllers also know everyone is scared of losing their ticket (asked 100 times every operation rain check) which just further compounds pilots fears of admitting they screwed up or are in trouble.

If no one wants to discuss or consider this then let me just say, "I am completely wrong". Then we can get back to non-specific bravado and debating DUI regulations.
 
Hawka said:
I think Alex is saying that the controller could have been more helpful. The controller is not to blame and did everything right strictly speaking, but the pilot could be alive today if the controller had not just done the minimal and had detected that this pilot was in trouble (which we all can from listening to the tape).

Controllers can declare emergencies on behalf of pilots can they not? In this case if he had asked "Are you IMC Sir?" followed by "I'm declaring an emergency on your behalf fly heading xx and climb and maintain yy" may very well have saved a life.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
I don't think vectors and an assigned altitude would have helped (the guy couldn't control the plane).

On the other hand, if he'd have tried to calm the guy down and told him to fly the instruments, then given vectors after he was under control that would probably have helped more, but the pilot never communicated his situation.
 
Hawka said:
Controllers can declare emergencies on behalf of pilots can they not? In this case if he had asked "Are you IMC Sir?" followed by "I'm declaring an emergency on your behalf fly heading xx and climb and maintain yy" may very well have saved a life.
Click to expand...

If the guy could'n keep it straight and level none of that would've helped anyway.
 
steingar said:
If the guy could'n keep it straight and level none of that would've helped anyway.
Click to expand...

Who says he couldn't? He may have been desperately trying to get lower out of IMC while trying to figure out where he was and in full panic. If he had a calm controller telling him to fly in a certain direction in level flight or climbing he could have then concentrated on that without panicking over not knowing where he was or where he was going.

It may not have helped, but it wouldn't have hurt to give him more of a helping hand.
 
Hawka said:
Who says he couldn't? He may have been desperately trying to get lower out of IMC while trying to figure out where he was and in full panic. If he had a calm controller telling him to fly in a certain direction in level flight or climbing he could have then concentrated on that without panicking over not knowing where or was or where he was going.

It may not have helped, but it wouldn't have hurt to give him more of a helping hand.
Click to expand...
The picture looked like the plane just nose dived and disintegrated on impact. There was nothing left of that plane.
 
jordane93 said:
The picture looked like the plane just nose dived and disintegrated on impact. There was nothing left of that plane.
Click to expand...

That could have been a result of him panicking and dropping too rapidly while turning back towards the airport. This may not have happened if he had been given a vector and altitude to concentrate on.
 
Hawka said:
That could have been a result of him panicking and dropping too rapidly while turning back towards the airport. This may not have happened if he had been given a vector and altitude to concentrate on.
Click to expand...
Exactly, so how would a vector or altitude clearance help his situation. He was panicking and got disoriented. He said he was turning back to FRG and ended up crashing in Patchogue which is East of ISP.
 
jordane93 said:
Exactly, so how would a vector or altitude clearance help his situation. He was panicking and got disoriented. He said he was turning back to FRG and ended up crashing in Patchogue which is East of ISP.
Click to expand...

Yes but put yourself in his shoes. He was panicking and getting no help and was not instrument rated so had too high of a workload. With a little additional help from ATC the degree of panic that he was experiencing may have been reduced significantly.

He was probably turning too quickly (more than a standard rate turn) while dropping to get into VMC conditions while trying to figure out where to turn to (looking at sectionals, iPad, GPS, whatever). High workload, not IR rated, doing too many things at once. It is not surprising he lost it. Some help from ATC could have reduced that workload.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I said ATC could've and should've done more and I believe that. This isn't some chicken s ****ing contest about right or wrong or blaming someone. It's about everyone doing everything they can to increase safety and save lives. There is a difference.

If you read that link you asked me about there are controllers being recognized who found aircraft they knew might be in trouble just from primary radar, using other aircraft for on non-ATC frequencies, and saving them from this exact scenario.

My other point was every bad weather day pilots of all skill levels are receiving unsolicited help from ATC. I have been helped many times, including some situations that might have been fatal. Controllers also know everyone is scared of losing their ticket (asked 100 times every operation rain check) which just further compounds pilots fears of admitting they screwed up or are in trouble.

If no one wants to discuss or consider this then let me just say, "I am completely wrong". Then we can get back to non-specific bravado and debating DUI regulations.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about??? You blamed the controller for providing
"**** poor air traffic work." He provided the only service he could. Nowhere in there did he say radar contact. In order to provide radar service (vector & altitude) he needs to get him up on radar first. That's why he was asking where he was. He's trying to figure out where he is so he can provide service and see if he's even in his sector. When the pilot requested to go back to FRG, it must have been clear to the controller that the pilot no longer requests service or "help".

Nothing in the pilot's transmission would indicate "obvious disorientation." If a pilot is suffering from Spatial D then they need to declare. If the pilot was worried about losing his ticket as you say, well that's a poor excuse for not declaring. The controller even asked him and he said "no."

This is a clear case of 1. departing into poor weather while operating VFR, 2. not communicating to ATC clearly what your problem is and your request and 3. not declaring an emergency if priority handling is needed. The controller isn't a mind reader.
 
Velocity173 said:
What are you talking about??? You blamed the controller for providing
"**** poor air traffic work." He provided the only service he could. Nowhere in there did he say radar contact. In order to provide radar service (vector & altitude) he needs to get him up on radar first. That's why he was asking where he was. He's trying to figure out where he is so he can provide service and see if he's even in his sector. When the pilot requested to go back to FRG, it must have been clear to the controller that the pilot no longer requests service or "help".

Nothing in the pilot's transmission would indicate "obvious disorientation." If a pilot is suffering from Spatial D then they need to declare. If the pilot was worried about losing his ticket as you say, well that's a poor excuse for not declaring. The controller even asked him and he said "no."

This is a clear case of 1. departing into poor weather while operating VFR, 2. not communicating to ATC clearly what your problem is and your request and 3. not declaring an emergency if priority handling is needed. The controller isn't a mind reader.
Click to expand...

Excellent point.

IMO it's no different than if he lost comms after saying "I need your help". Or if my sister had dialed 911 while she was choking and said "help"!

You can try to calm the person on the other end all you want, but if you can't get enough information out of the person, your hands are tied.

Why on earth are people trying to blame the operator/controller for "not doing more" is beyond me:dunno:
 
Hawka said:
Yes but put yourself in his shoes. He was panicking and getting no help and was not instrument rated so had too high of a workload. With a little additional help from ATC the degree of panic that he was experiencing may have been reduced significantly.

He was probably turning too quickly (more than a standard rate turn) while dropping to get into VMC conditions while trying to figure out where to turn to (looking at sectionals, iPad, GPS, whatever). High workload, not IR rated, doing too many things at once. It is not surprising he lost it. Some help from ATC could have reduced that workload.
Click to expand...

After reading this, for some reason I keep seeing Dick Collins on my old Sporty's Private Pilot tapes (VHS). He was talking about this very topic of pilots panicking and losing control.

To paraphrase, he was saying something to the effect of the feeling of being all alone because you ARE all alone. No one, including the Controller, can get in that cockpit and fly the plane for you! I try to think about that before every flight and hope like hell I never forget it!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top