Columbia Lancair Down on Long Island

Clipped trees taking off in heavy fog.

I'm guessing he drifted of the RWY heading?
 
A Columbia catching fire? Wow, would be interested to know the details.






The plane was a single-engine Columbia Lancair aircraft based out of Jamaica, Queens, according to FAA officials.
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Nothing from this sentence makes sense. Even though related, Columbia and Lancair are two separate manufacturers. There isn't an airport located in Jamaica, Queens, the closest airport to that is Kennedy and I seriously doubt he's based out of there.
 
MachFly said:
There isn't an airport located in Jamaica, Queens, the closest airport to that is Kennedy and I seriously doubt he's based out of there.
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Mass media isn't using "based" as a pilot would. They're probably going by the registration address.
 
DJTorrente said:
Mass media isn't using "based" as a pilot would. They're probably going by the registration address.
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Right I forgot, this was written by a reporter. Instead of saying "pilot lives at" or "place is registered at" the guy tried to sound like he knows what he's talking about and used a term he absolutely didn't understand. How typical.
 
Bonchie said:
Clipped trees taking off in heavy fog.

I'm guessing he drifted of the RWY heading?
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Crash was at the arrival airport according to the report. It also would have been a really, really short flight between the two airports stated, so maybe something is wrong?

Besides, with the rate a Columbia climbs it would be damn near impossible to hit trees on takeoff at a larger airport just by drifting off heading.
 
MachFly said:
Nothing from this sentence makes sense. Even though related, Columbia and Lancair are two separate manufacturers. There isn't an airport located in Jamaica, Queens, the closest airport to that is Kennedy and I seriously doubt he's based out of there.
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Lancair (the company) build the Columbia (the airplane) for a time, before they went under and were bought by Cessna.
 
He took off from Republic (KFRG) according to the article. That's my home airport. There are no tree obstacles anywhere within any runways, even if he drifted off runway heading. And both runways are long (one is about 5500 and the other is about 1000 longer).

Wow, it's a different feeling when it hits close to home.
 
steingar said:
Lancair (the company) build the Columbia (the airplane) for a time, before they went under and were bought by Cessna.
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Lancair build the Lancair IV, later it evolved into the Columbia but when that happened it was already being manufactured by Columbia Aircraft (company). The Columbia (aircraft) was never directly manufactured by Lancair.

I believe Lancair did however help with the certification process.

Either way, not a single aircraft exists with the words "Columbia" and "Lancair" in it's official name. As a result I'm still not sure which aircraft actually crashed.
 
Regarding the crash, there is too much information out there right now that is inconsistent which leads me to believable that most of it is wrong. I'll wait until the official report before speculating anything on this topic.
 
MachFly said:
Either way, not a single aircraft exists with the words "Columbia" and "Lancair" in it's official name. As a result I'm still not sure which aircraft actually crashed.
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Another article identified it as a Cessna 400.....

Maybe we can find another that identifies it as a Columbia Corvalis TTX
 
Believe it's N610MH, which was a 2006 (pre-Cessna) Columbia 400 with IO550.
 
MachFly said:
Lancair build the Lancair IV, later it evolved into the Columbia but when that happened it was already being manufactured by Columbia Aircraft (company). The Columbia (aircraft) was never directly manufactured by Lancair.

I believe Lancair did however help with the certification process.
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Not true. What is now known as the Cessna Corvalis was never made or designed by Lancair, although the roots are there. A separate company was created by Lance in the 1994/1995 timeframe to create a certified product, and all of the work was accomplished within that company. The idea was to start with the Super ES kitplane and make changes to make it certifiable and easier to produce in a factory vs. a garage. Within the first few months it became apparent that the Super ES was not a certifiable design, so a clean-sheet design was started, and there are no parts in common. Some Lancair workers transferred to the new company, but they were completely separate.
 
Correct, and that company was called Pacific Aviation Composites, USA. Then changed to Lancair Company and then to Columbia Aircraft MFG.
 
KSMooniac said:
Not true. What is now known as the Cessna Corvalis was never made or designed by Lancair, although the roots are there. A separate company was created by Lance in the 1994/1995 timeframe to create a certified product, and all of the work was accomplished within that company. The idea was to start with the Super ES kitplane and make changes to make it certifiable and easier to produce in a factory vs. a garage. Within the first few months it became apparent that the Super ES was not a certifiable design, so a clean-sheet design was started, and there are no parts in common. Some Lancair workers transferred to the new company, but they were completely separate.
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I never said that the Columbia was build by Lancair, as a matter of fact all of my posts in this thread on this topic were to point out that Lanceair never made Columbia directly.
 
Why would anyone make a joke about this crash. To the person making the joke that the crash was in the bad part of town... Are you kidding me?!? That's in really poor taste. There is nothing funny about a plane crash.

The trip from Farmingdale to Islip is very short( about 10 minutes of flying.). Most pilots around here fly that route at low altitudes because the trip is so short and the class c is right to the east of Farmingdale. I'd venture to say the pilot hardly had any time to fid an open field and their are not many in that area. I think the pilot is to be praised for avoiding the houses and saving other lives in the process. It's kind of the last heroic act any of us could do in that situation.
 
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He took of from FRG on his way to ISP. He got in the clouds was obviously disoriented, asked for help, didn't get much, decided to turn around, was dumped by ATC, and crashed. **** poor air traffic work IMO. This guy was obviously in serious trouble and they just didn't want to deal with him.

First part of the recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kisp/KISP2-Jun-17-2014-1300Z.mp3

Really makes me sick.
 
We ain't all brothers and we ain't flying saints. Just people livin' n dying. No reason not to joke about another one. You'll joke about a dead climber, surfer, motorcyclist or some such soon enough. If any of us die in a plane crash the local news website will be full of people making fun of us. Then the sun will rise tomorrow, the widows will beg their lovers to move in, and the kids will get over it.
jspilot said:
Why would anyone make a joke about this crash. To the person making the joke that the crash was in the bad part of town... Are you kidding me?!? That's in really poor taste. There is nothing funny about a plane crash.

The trip from Farmingdale to Islip is very short( about 10 minutes of flying.). Most pilots around here fly that route at low altitudes because the trip is so short and the class c is right to the east of Farmingdale. I'd venture to say the pilot hardly had any time to fid an open field and their are not many in that area. I think the pilot is to be praised for avoiding the houses and saving other lives in the process. It's kind of the last heroic act any of us could do in that situation.
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Alexb2000 said:
He took of from FRG on his way to ISP. He got in the clouds was obviously disoriented, asked for help, didn't get much, decided to turn around, was dumped by ATC, and crashed. **** poor air traffic work IMO. This guy was obviously in serious trouble and they just didn't want to deal with him.

First part of the recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kisp/KISP2-Jun-17-2014-1300Z.mp3

Really makes me sick.
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I am not even going to listen to it...... :mad2::mad2::mad2:.....:mad:.
 
Alexb2000 said:
He took of from FRG on his way to ISP. He got in the clouds was obviously disoriented, asked for help, didn't get much, decided to turn around, was dumped by ATC, and crashed. **** poor air traffic work IMO. This guy was obviously in serious trouble and they just didn't want to deal with him.

First part of the recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kisp/KISP2-Jun-17-2014-1300Z.mp3

Really makes me sick.
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I'm very familiar with the area and based on what I heard, I wouldn't be so quick to say this was "poor air traffic work". This guy clearly never articulated that he was in trouble and needed help. The NY controllers are some of the best and most helpful that I've interacted with. But you have to speak up if you have a problem. He asked "are you declaring an emergency" and the pilot said NO.

Sad situation indeed but based on what I heard (something about visibility), it was clearly "pilot error". Not "poor ATC work". Poor PIC work IMO.
RIP.

Oh and those that think there's something funny about it, wow:rolleyes2:
 
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Agreed. Seems like typical ATC responses to me as well.
 
Alexb2000 said:
He took of from FRG on his way to ISP. He got in the clouds was obviously disoriented, asked for help, didn't get much, decided to turn around, was dumped by ATC, and crashed. **** poor air traffic work IMO. This guy was obviously in serious trouble and they just didn't want to deal with him.

First part of the recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kisp/KISP2-Jun-17-2014-1300Z.mp3

Really makes me sick.
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I don't think the controller did anything particularly wrong. The accident pilot said he needed help but said "no" to declaring an emergency, the controller attempted to get the information required to help him, but the pilot didn't give it to him and instead said he was going "back to approach" (who may very well have been better equipped to help him). Heck, the pilot didn't even say what he needed help with other than that he was going to ISP but "the visibility is too low."

I'll wait for the NTSB report before judging anyone, but it sounds like a typical VFR into IMC accident to me.
 
Come on the guy said twice he needed help. He said he had no visibility squaking VFR. It's pretty obvious he isn't an IFR pilot and he's in IMC. The controllers knew the conditions they were working other aircraft right in the same place that couldn't get visual.

Did we listen to the same recording?
 
What I hear in that recording is the pilot asking for help, which could have been understood as something as simple as requesting clearance to transition the airspace, then the pilot reported low visibility which sounds like a good PIREP, and for some reason later he changed his minds and says he's going back to FRG. The controller let him do what he wanted.

Granted the pilot didn't sound very confident, but knowing how much training is going on in that area seeing some confused student pilot is not uncommon. So could the control have provided more help that was requested of him? Sure. Was there anything not unusual about his call that would have made the controller declare an emergency for him? No.

It almost sounds like the guy didn't want to ask for help and inform ATC of his real situation.
 
The recording is 30 mins long. Which section are you listening to?

I just heard him say "we need your help" and then mumbling something about vis...
 
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matthammer said:
I don't think the controller did anything particularly wrong. The accident pilot said he needed help but said "no" to declaring an emergency, the controller attempted to get the information required to help him, but the pilot didn't give it to him and instead said he was going "back to approach" (who may very well have been better equipped to help him). Heck, the pilot didn't even say what he needed help with other than that he was going to ISP but "the visibility is too low."

I'll wait for the NTSB report before judging anyone, but it sounds like a typical VFR into IMC accident to me.
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Agreed.....

And to the people who are saying "he was a hero by missing houses" are wrong.... That guy didn't come in at a slight angle and steer around structures... That thing came in STRAIGHT down.. Look at the pic of the wreckage..
 
Weather at the time of the flight:

Departure airport:
KFRG 171353Z 16006KT 10SM SCT065 SCT080 23/19 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP181 T02280194
KFRG 171253Z 21003KT 10SM BKN100 22/19 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP181 T02170189

Destination airport (or at least the airport near which he went down):
KISP 171356Z 22008KT 6SM HZ BKN007 OVC075 22/19 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP178 T02170189
KISP 171256Z 22008KT 7SM OVC007 22/19 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP178 T02170189 $
 
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Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, but...

1. Can you get insurance in a Columbia and no IR?


2. Why don't more folks in this situation just hit the AP in HDG/ALT mode when they realize they are in an emergency situation?
 
dans2992 said:
Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, but...

1. Can you get insurance in a Columbia and no IR?
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Why not?


2. Why don't more folks in this situation just hit the AP in HDG/ALT mode when they realize they are in an emergency situation?
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Not everyone knows how to use their autopilot. It's not a Cirrus, I assume there is not "level" button on the autopilot.
And for all we know it could have been his first time flying that plane.
 
matthammer said:
I don't think the controller did anything particularly wrong. The accident pilot said he needed help but said "no" to declaring an emergency, the controller attempted to get the information required to help him, but the pilot didn't give it to him and instead said he was going "back to approach" (who may very well have been better equipped to help him). Heck, the pilot didn't even say what he needed help with other than that he was going to ISP but "the visibility is too low."

I'll wait for the NTSB report before judging anyone, but it sounds like a typical VFR into IMC accident to me.
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N801BH said:
Agreed.....

And to the people who are saying "he was a hero by missing houses" are wrong.... That guy didn't come in at a slight angle and steer around structures... That thing came in STRAIGHT down.. Look at the pic of the wreckage..
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Agreed with both.
 
MachFly said:
Weather at the time of the flight:

Departure airport:
KFRG 171353Z 16006KT 10SM SCT065 SCT080 23/19 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP181 T02280194
KFRG 171253Z 21003KT 10SM BKN100 22/19 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP181 T02170189

Destination airport:
KISP 171356Z 22008KT 6SM HZ BKN007 OVC075 22/19 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP178 T02170189
KISP 171256Z 22008KT 7SM OVC007 22/19 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP178 T02170189 $
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Explains why he couldn't see. I didn't go flying today but just by looking at the sky, I could tell it was really hazy here and had to be worse up there
 
Alexb2000 said:
Come on the guy said twice he needed help. He said he had no visibility squaking VFR. It's pretty obvious he isn't an IFR pilot and he's in IMC. The controllers knew the conditions they were working other aircraft right in the same place that couldn't get visual.

Did we listen to the same recording?
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He also said "no" to declaring an emergency, did not give the controller the requested information, and told controller he was changing frequencies. I don't think there's much else the controller could have done for the guy without more information, information which was not being communicated by the pilot. It's not ATC's job to beat information out of you in order to help you. You have to be forthcoming with it yourself, and if you really need help, declare an emergency. I can guarantee you that controller would've made a top-notch effort to save the guy if he'd just declared an emergency or expressed more urgency in his situation. "I'm trying to go to ISP but the visibility is too low" isn't enough to warrant emergency attention, "I need help" might be enough if you actually answer the controller's questions afterwards.
 
In the first seconds I knew this guy was in trouble. If there is any doubt , ask the pilot don't just dump him. What does the guy have to say, "I'm a VFR pilot in IMC and I'm about to crash and die. Declaring an Emergency."

This is how people keep friken dieing.

How about we take that controller up in IMC until he's scared s-less and then tell him to call his buddies for help.
 
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