Engine Overhaul Credibility

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Code90

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Code90
In shopping for a plane, I've come across several different versions of engine rebuilds. Reading SFOH seems to make me feel more comfortable than SMOH when shopping Trade-a-Plane. When I see more common names like Penn Yan, I feel more secure about the engine. Recently have looked at a plane with a recent rebuild by Parker Engines in Houston. I can't find them with a Google search. Guessing it's a smaller shop. Would that fact alone scare anyone away from a plane? Trying to decide on one plane with 700 hours on an older Factory motor (has only been flown 15 - 30 hours a year) vs a plane with a new 60 hour motor rebuild by a small shop. How do I weigh that?
 
Code90 said:
In shopping for a plane, I've come across several different versions of engine rebuilds. Reading SFOH seems to make me feel more comfortable than SMOH when shopping Trade-a-Plane. When I see more common names like Penn Yan, I feel more secure about the engine. Recently have looked at a plane with a recent rebuild by Parker Engines in Houston. I can't find them with a Google search. Guessing it's a smaller shop. Would that fact alone scare anyone away from a plane? Trying to decide on one plane with 700 hours on an older Factory motor (has only been flown 15 - 30 hours a year) vs a plane with a new 60 hour motor rebuild by a small shop. How do I weigh that?
Click to expand...

Think of that as a custom overhaul by some old annal A&P tweaking each and every part to the optimal setting.

It has run 60 hours it should be good to go.






or not. :)
 
Code90 said:
Thanks. That makes me feel better.








Or not...
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Just remember we all must meet FAR 43.2 as rebuilt or ?

Most small shops like me and many others do not do our own machining we send the parts out to be machined by companies like Aircraft Specialities in Tulsa OK, and Chuck Ney Enterprises. most we do is disassemble, ship, receive and reassemble with new common hardware, then test and install, tweak and adjust.
 
That sounds better. After some length of time, should I be more comfortable that the motor will not cause me to fall out of the sky? Is 60 hours long enough?
 
Code90 said:
That sounds better. After some length of time, should I be more comfortable that the motor will not cause me to fall out of the sky? Is 60 hours long enough?
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We have two schools of thought, hell, its running great. and infant mortality.

take your choice.

Then we also have "the longer it runs the more worn out it is."

ever engine is Pandora's box if it is not giving you symptoms of failure fly it.
 
Code90 said:
That sounds better. After some length of time, should I be more comfortable that the motor will not cause me to fall out of the sky? Is 60 hours long enough?
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Depends.

Lots of "Krylon Overhauls" out there. Just because Billy Bob Joe signed it off as overhauled doesn't mean he knew what he was doing, or that he actually did the work he signed off.

Buyer beware.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Depends.

Lots of "Krylon Overhauls" out there. Just because Billy Bob Joe signed it off as overhauled doesn't mean he knew what he was doing, or that he actually did the work he signed off.

Buyer beware.
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Big bad boogy man, theory :)

show me one for sale today.

Show me an AD on any engine build shop for bad overhauls.

These A&P's know their house is at risk, so they follow the rules.
 
Tom-D said:
These A&P's know their house is at risk, so they follow the rules.
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Coming from a pencil whipper such as yourself I can see why you are defensive. :rolleyes2: :lol:


For the OP. Do your homework, ask around, ask a lot of questions. Just because someone holds an A&P, just because he claims to be the "best engine guy" around doesn't always hold true.

As with anything else in life, there are shysters, even in aviation.

Buyer beware.
 
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Code90 said:
In shopping for a plane, I've come across several different versions of engine rebuilds. Reading SFOH seems to make me feel more comfortable than SMOH when shopping Trade-a-Plane. When I see more common names like Penn Yan, I feel more secure about the engine. Recently have looked at a plane with a recent rebuild by Parker Engines in Houston. I can't find them with a Google search. Guessing it's a smaller shop. Would that fact alone scare anyone away from a plane? Trying to decide on one plane with 700 hours on an older Factory motor (has only been flown 15 - 30 hours a year) vs a plane with a new 60 hour motor rebuild by a small shop. How do I weigh that?
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Keep doing what you're doing. Ask around. Go to local pilot meetings. Meet the guys who are using the services you're looking for. If you have a relationship with an FBO, talk to them. Find someone you can trust, whose opinion you trust, and ask.
I have used a couple of local (to me) shops. For my primary shop, located on field, before I started with them, I heard they were GOOD, but expensive. The mechanics there all have 10+ years at that shop. I can walk in anytime, wander around the shop, see what they are working on, ask questions.
While longevity does not define the quality of the work, a long established business might be better than one that just opened. On the other hand, my auto mechanic (shop owner) worked for someone else for years before he opened his own place.
The history is out there. You just have to dig for it.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Depends.

Lots of "Krylon Overhauls" out there. Just because Billy Bob Joe signed it off as overhauled doesn't mean he knew what he was doing, or that he actually did the work he signed off.

Buyer beware.
Click to expand...

Ask to see the stack of yellow tags and receipts for the O/H machine work, NDT, and the new parts. A viable overhaul should result in a stack of those documents.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Coming from a pencil whipper such as yourself I can see why you are defensive. :rolleyes2: :lol:
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IOWs you can produce no evidence that your boogy man exists.

So you spin it and attack me.

as always
 
kyleb said:
Ask to see the stack of yellow tags and receipts for the O/H machine work, NDT, and the new parts. A viable overhaul should result in a stack of those documents.
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You are right on the money with these questions, the W/O from the rebuilder, ad the 8030-3 tags will tell you what was done to what.

The biggest item of worry is the service after the sale.
 
Luigi said:
RotorAndWing said:
Coming from a pencil whipper such as yourself I can see why you are defensive. :rolleyes2: :lol:


Yikes, what do you base that accusation on?
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When he says some thing stupid and is required to rationalize it, he can't and gets defensive.

simply because he knows nothing about how the real world works.
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Tom-D said:
When he says some thing stupid and is required to rationalize it, he can't and gets defensive.

simply because he knows nothing about how the real world works.
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pot_calls_kettle_black.jpg
 
Code90 said:
When I see more common names like Penn Yan, I feel more secure about the engine. Recently have looked at a plane with a recent rebuild by Parker Engines in Houston. I can't find them with a Google search. Guessing it's a smaller shop. Would that fact alone scare anyone away from a plane?
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Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
 
kevin7500 said:
Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
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You are kiddin.. Right ??
 
kevin7500 said:
Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
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alternatively, you could say that people go to big name shops because they are enthralled with names. You have to ask yourself, what else have they missed that needs to be done on their planes, since they are obviously ignorant as to how things work ?
 
kevin7500 said:
Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
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First, your statement makes no sense. Penn Yan and Mattituck don't do factory overhauls. Lycoming and Continental do.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what magic dust you think the big shops (e.g. Penn Yan) offer, but they buy the same parts and send components to the same O/H shops as the A&P down the street. The questions you have to ask regarding any O/H go to the issue of the limits which were used when building the engine, and what new parts were used.

Spend your money as you wish, but...
 
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kyleb said:
First, your statement makes no sense. Penn Yan and Mattituck don't do factory overhauls. Lycoming and Continental do.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what magic dust you think the big shops (e.g. Penn Yan) offer, but they buy the same parts and send components to the same O/H shops as the A&P down the street. The questions you have to ask regarding any O/H go to the issue of the limits which were used when building the engine, and what new parts were used.

Spend your money as you wish, but...
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I believe they may have factory authorization to do SFRM "0" time rebuilds. I know the factories contract this stuff out as well if not exclusively.
 

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kevin7500 said:
Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
Click to expand...

The biggest issues I've ever seen were on a factory overhaul.

At least with the small shops you have an A&P (emphasis on the P) turning the wrenches.
 
Tom-D said:
Figure out who built this then show us what you've done.

It's time you put up, or shut up.:)
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No matter what I say or post, it will be the same dribble from you. I answered the OP here with an honest assessment of his situation, you interviened with your typical inane rant.
 
bartmc said:
The biggest issues I've ever seen were on a factory overhaul.

At least with the small shops you have an A&P (emphasis on the P) turning the wrenches.
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Even in a small shop the people turning wrenches nay not be A&Ps either.
 
Obviously everyone has their own opinions.

Factory overhauls generally are good. The factory Continental overhauls in the 310 made it to 2100 hours, and would've gone further but the timing was right for an overhaul. One engine was blowing a lot of oil out of the breather. Other one was fine, but I wanted to do them both at once since that's how they were already rather than split them.

When it was time to do the overhaul work, we sent them to Zephyr Aircraft Engines because of the excellent reputation the shop has and competitive pricing. We got two engines built exactly how we wanted them. 150 hours or so later, running great with no problems.

As far as how many hours to consider them "good", I'd generally say 500 hours is where you'll catch almost all assembly errors by, but you can find various craftsmanship or poor parts making themselves known at the 1000+ hour mark. That's where I typically see factory and good name overhauls really being worth their money - as the engines age.
 
kevin7500 said:
Google "Parker Aviation Houston".

When we have gone plane shopping, we consider all planes with non-factory overhauls to be at TBO even if it only has 60 hours on it. People go to sources other than places like Penn Yan and Mattituck for one reason....to save money.

You have to ask yourself what other compromises were made do to cost?
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YGBSM. There are plenty of shops that turn out a quality overhaul.
 
Norman said:
YGBSM. There are plenty of shops that turn out a quality overhaul.
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There are plenty of old annal A&Ps that have a favorite engine they do custom overhauls on that exceed any factory overhauls.
 
Tom-D said:
There are plenty of old annal A&Ps that have a favorite engine they do custom overhauls on that exceed any factory overhauls.
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amen. If someone is selling a PA11 and the C-85 doesn't have a mattituck sticker on it, is the seller a cheap bastard ?
 
JHW said:
amen. If someone is selling a PA11 and the C-85 doesn't have a mattituck sticker on it, is the seller a cheap bastard ?
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yes according to our anon expert.
 
bartmc said:
The ones that I'm familiar with are, if you send it to the factory, you can be guaranteed they aren't.
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No argument there, however it takes no great base of knowledge and ability to screw together parts handed you, that's the process of learning in someone's shop, the master does or directly supervise the 10% of the work with criticality and oversee and inspect the rest at various points.

There are only two points of spending I see value in, SFNEW with all new parts (not without it's own level of risk), when Diesels become an option this is the route I would go by necessity or if I wanted to buy a final set of engines. The other is an IRAN, fix and fly, if one is 135, I'd do field overhauls on schedule with a spare engine hanging around ready to go to work.
 
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Tom-D said:
Figure out who built this then show us what you've done.

It's time you put up, or shut up.:)
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Drilled holes in yoke shafts for PTT wire and some way to mount them? Is that legit?
 
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