Fate of ATP pilot landing at wrong runway. A poll

Fate of ATP landing at wrong airport

  • No action, remain on duty

    Votes: 3 2.5%

  • Stern talking to. Remain on duty

    Votes: 18 14.8%

  • Letter of reprimand, additional landing training remain on duty

    Votes: 73 59.8%

  • Fired for cause

    Votes: 28 23.0%
  • Total voters
    122
I'd settle for competence. Realizing that this is a lot to ask these days of everyone gets a medal, and it's all about their feelings.
 
I guess to be more clear, my friend told me that the SWA pilots do not use electronic back up on visual approaches, where at AirTran they always used whatever electronic back up was available. :D

olasek said:
:confused:

It is one thing not to "use" those tools for approach it is another to use the as a backup for situational awareness. I doubt there is a prohibition to use such help if available. I doubt SWA pilots can't verify their position on their MFDs when on final approach or attempting to land.

well, there were many incidents in which nobody got hurt, nothing was bent but ultimately pilots got fired.
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N747JB said:
my friend told me that the SWA pilots do not use electronic back up on visual approaches,
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I think we are bogged down in semantics. What is "use", where does visual approach actually begin, etc?. I may not "use" anything during the approach but just before I commence the approach I can verify that in fact I am about to start the approach to a correct target, if distances on MFD look like they are off by 10 miles (and it takes a couple of seconds to check) it means this may not be the right airport. Nobody is going to tell me that SWA forbids its pilots to glance at their MFD for situational awareness.
 
OK I'll try one more time, my friend said the SWA pilots that he has flown with do not use electronic means to back up visual approaches. I didn't say they weren't allowed use them, just that the ones he's flown with and assumably others didn't use them. :rolleyes:
As for when a visual approach begins, for me it's when I have the airport in sight and I can maintain visual contact until touchdown. :D I normally use the GPS or localizer, especially at night or at unfamiliar airports, but I'm not an airline pilot.:D
olasek said:
I think we are bogged down in semantics. What is "use", where does visual approach actually begin, etc?. I may not "use" anything during the approach but just before I commence the approach I can verify that in fact I am about to start the approach to a correct target, if distances on MFD look like they are off by 10 miles (and it takes a couple of seconds to check) it means this may not be the right airport. Nobody is going to tell me that SWA forbids its pilots to glance at their MFD for situational awareness.
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N747JB said:
OK I'll try one more time, my friend said the SWA pilots that he has flown with do not use electronic means to back up visual approaches. I didn't say they weren't allowed use them, just that the ones he's flown with and assumably others didn't use them. :rolleyes:
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I'll add to this that it would be rare for a 121 operator to have this as an approved procedure.

Typically on visual approaches the crew must use an electronic back up if available (such as precision approach or non precision approach procedure) or aircraft generated (such as an FMS runway threshold waypoint).
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is an interesting thought process, sitting at your desk with time to think about it. In the heat of the battle, I bet if they realized at 25 feet that they were at the wrong place, they would have cobbed the throttles and gone around.
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I suspect you're right, but it still might be the worse decision at some airports. I think this is one of those cases where Captain Groucho Marx's advice would be best heeded: "If there's no good way out of a situation, don't get in that situation."
 
Ron Levy said:
I suspect you're right, but it still might be the worse decision at some airports.
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Not at this one...especially if they hadn't gotten stopped. It's 60' or so straight down to highway 65 off the end of 12. Then on the east side of 65 the terrain continues to drop precipitously all the way down to Turkey Creek. That end of the runway's at 930...the creek about 700'. And there's a subdivision between the highway and the creek.

It would NOT have been pretty.

A go around is definitely obstacle free. Of course, they did not know this.
 
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timwinters said:
Not at this one...especially if they hadn't gotten stopped. It's 60' or so straight down to highway 65 off the end of 12. Then on the east side of 65 the terrain continues to drop precipitously all the way down to Turkey Creek. That end of the runway's at 930...the creek about 700'. And there's a subdivision between the highway and the creek.

It would NOT have been pretty.

A go around is definitely obstacle free. Of course, they did not know this.
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Exactly the conundrum facing the crew at that point -- and (dare I prejudge?) their own fault for having to face it.
 
I think they should be retrained to work as obamacare on-boarders.
 
My understanding is that SOP at the airline is to have electronic aids enabled (tuned, loaded, depicted), regardless of whether the approach has been accepted as a visual or not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly the conundrum facing the crew at that point -- and (dare I prejudge?) their own fault for having to face it.
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Careful here chief, you are coming dangerously close to agreeing with a point I made earlier. :yikes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
The engines are already spooled up. Thrust is maintained all the way down till about 20 feet or so. With flaps down, gear down (landing configuration) it requires about 50 to 70% thrust (depending upon airframe, weight, altitude, temp, etc) to maintain glide path.

We do go arounds (sim) from DH all the way down to main gear touch down in the A320 and it's a non event. You are committed to the landing once ground spoilers deploy.
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So approximately how much time passes between the point where you move the levers forward and get a positive rate of climb?
 
MachFly said:
So approximately how much time passes between the point where you move the levers forward and get a positive rate of climb?
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In a large (transport) aircraft consider one more factor, kinetic energy. In a jet of say 120,000 pounds at landing weight on approach speed if the throttles are not pushed up to TOGA and the aircraft is pitched to about 12 degrees nose up it will start climbing due to the stored energy changing direction.

The thrust used for a stabilized approach (flaps landing and gear down) is already above 50% (typical) so the engines will respond faster than idle thrust to TOGA.

In the A320 I pull thrust off at about 20 feet above touchdown. As they are spooling down if I command TOGA the thrust comes back rapidly due to the higher idle. I may touch the runway on such a go around but it's momentary.

Hope that answers your question.
 
RotorAndWing said:
In a large (transport) aircraft consider one more factor, kinetic energy. In a jet of say 120,000 pounds at landing weight on approach speed if the throttles are not pushed up to TOGA and the aircraft is pitched to about 12 degrees nose up it will start climbing due to the stored energy changing direction.

The thrust used for a stabilized approach (flaps landing and gear down) is already above 50% (typical) so the engines will respond faster than idle thrust to TOGA.

In the A320 I pull thrust off at about 20 feet above touchdown. As they are spooling down if I command TOGA the thrust comes back rapidly due to the higher idle. I may touch the runway on such a go around but it's momentary.

Hope that answers your question.
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That does, thanks.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The "textbook" (Order 2150.3B)...
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FYI, in order to keep the forum software from turning a "D" followed by a ")" into a smiley, just check the "Disable smilies in text" box below the Submit Reply button.
 
Everskyward said:
How do you know they didn't?
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Tower doesn't have to have you in sight to clear you to land. I can tell you for sure the Delta 727 that did the low approach to Rwy 32 at Louisville-Bowman heard "Cleared to land runway 29" from Standiford Tower (shortly before Bowman called Standiford on the hotline and asked them to send the 727 around before something really bad happened).
 
MachFly said:
So approximately how much time passes between the point where you move the levers forward and get a positive rate of climb?
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Wide bodies may lose up to 100 feet going from stabilized approach to positive rate of climb. Touchdowns (kind of a bounce-and-go) can happen on a go-around from 100 DH on a Cat II ILS approach in such aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tower doesn't have to have you in sight to clear you to land.
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Exactly. As sleepy as BBG is, it was quite likely the only flight in the area and was cleared to land as soon as he checked in.

I've been cleared to land upon initial contact many times at various smaller towered airports.
 
timwinters said:
Exactly. As sleepy as BBG is, it was quite likely the only flight in the area and was cleared to land as soon as he checked in.

I've been cleared to land upon initial contact many times at various smaller towered airports.
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You hear that at my rather sleepy home 'drome, too:
"Salisbury Tower, Tiger 22RL, eight miles northeast, inbound, landing."
"Tiger 22RL, Salisbury Tower, wind 230 at 10, altimeter 30.03, not in sight, cleared to land Runway 23."
 
Ron Levy said:
You hear that at my rather sleepy home 'drome, too:
"Salisbury Tower, Tiger 22RL, eight miles northeast, inbound, landing."
"Tiger 22RL, Salisbury Tower, wind 230 at 10, altimeter 30.03, not in sight, cleared to land Runway 23."
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The private, SERCO tower here is run by sone VERY talented controllers... I do agree that maybe 5% of the time they will issue a cleared to land using the phrasology that Ron pointed out..... But after spending a fair amount of time visiting them up in the cab I can say.. They ALWAYS keep looking for the inbound aircraft and if that plane is not visual on final they will get on the radio and ask WTF........

When the tapes do get released it will be interesting if the Branson tower made any additional calls when the SW didn't show up on final ...:confused:

Time will tell..:rolleyes:
 
timwinters said:
Not at this one...especially if they hadn't gotten stopped. It's 60' or so straight down to highway 65 off the end of 12. Then on the east side of 65 the terrain continues to drop precipitously all the way down to Turkey Creek. That end of the runway's at 930...the creek about 700'. And there's a subdivision between the highway and the creek.

It would NOT have been pretty.

A go around is definitely obstacle free. Of course, they did not know this.
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If they suddenly realize that the were about to land at the wrong airport, how would they know they had sufficient runway to get stopped? I would think that unless there was an obvious large obstacle in front of them, it would always be a higher percentage move to go around.
 
docmirror said:
I have been chastised for opining that the SWA pilots be fired for cause. What say you. I realize we are all human, and I've made plenty of mistakes before as well. I'm not a pro pilot, but would like to get the collective wisdom of the industry. Realizing that this will be skewed because we are mostly all pilots in this forum.

This has nothing to do with the FAA enforcement/actions at all, just the industry.

General Presumptions:
1. Airplane not broke
2. Airport not broke
3. Crew trained, and certified for the job they attained(ATP, major airline, current in type, good medical, etc)
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Are you asking what we think should happen, or what we think will happen?
 
I am not a conspiracy nut but I have to think they landed at this airport for some other reason. I just cannot imagine two seasoned pilots making this type of mistake. Of course I am a relatively new private pilot with under 200 hours. I preflight every trip and know the frequencies and headings for the runways I plan on using along with my alternates.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't think they're allowed to release the CVR tapes to the public.
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Not the tapes themselves, but the sanitized transcripts will be out pretty quick. And by "sanitized," I mean no individuals' names, no "bad words," no "Tell the kids I love them," etc -- not deleting the things which show they goofed.
 
rkdF250 said:
I am not a conspiracy nut but I have to think they landed at this airport for some other reason. I just cannot imagine two seasoned pilots making this type of mistake.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 1, scene 5, 159–167

It's happened before (note the three cases which I posted earlier), it will happen again. Just goes to show that even the very best of us can make a misteak. ;) So take this to heart, and always keep checking and double checking everything you do in the cockpit.
 
Ron Levy said:
So take this to heart, and always keep checking and double checking everything you do in the cockpit.
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That sir, I believe, is the most important take-away. Thank you.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Not the tapes themselves, but the sanitized transcripts will be out pretty quick. And by "sanitized," I mean no individuals' names, no "bad words," no "Tell the kids I love them," etc -- not deleting the things which show they goofed.
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Thanks. I thought it was something like that, but I wasn't sure of the details.
 
That thing would have gone around fine
 
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