That One Tip

[FastEddieB]

Remember that airplanes are designed to cruise, not to land. The greatest contributing factor to the perfect landing — is luck.

"There are three secrets to getting perfect landings every time.

Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are!" :wink2:

 

[alfadog]

"There are three secrets to getting perfect landings every time.

Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are!" :wink2:

Practice, proficiency, and luck will get you close.

 

[FastEddieB]

Practice, proficiency, and luck will get you close.

Well, the Asiana crew came up short (literally) in at least one of those areas - probably more.

Best to remember that the PIC had over 12,000 hours, which I'm sure included all of the requisite proficiency checks.

As an aside, ValueJet had to change its name after it became a prefix to the word "crash". I wonder if Asiana will have to do so as well.

 

[FastEddieB]

At least one tip here advised to focus on the far end of the runway while landing.

I disagree.

Here's a link to an article I wrote for the Cirrus Owner's and Pilot's magazine on the topic:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d61m9axtt2nfqth/Wheretolook.pdf

In the article it makes clear that if what you're doing works for you, do not change.

And here's Kershner on the topic (the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook concurs with the overall theme):

 

[Fearless Tower]

At least one tip here advised to focus on the far end of the runway while landing.

I disagree.

Here's a link to an article I wrote for the Cirrus Owner's and Pilot's magazine on the topic:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d61m9axtt2nfqth/Wheretolook.pdf

In the article it makes clear that if what you're doing works for you, do not change.

And here's Kershner on the topic (the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook concurs with the overall theme):

You ever shot a gun?

Which do you think is more accurate? A pistol or a rifle?

The whole length of the runway creates what we call a visual range. You eye (and brain) will detect side drift much quicker by looking the length of the runway than it will looking the distance you recommend in that article. That is why the tip works when you start having trouble with side drift on touchdown.

 

[ifconfig]

While I don't think the question itself was flippant, I'll suggest getting the answer to that is much more important than you thought. …

Begging your pardon but unless you're some kind of god or a new version of mindreader heretofore unknown in human history, you cannot know what I thought or its importance. Thanks for the input though.

 

[ifconfig]

Practice, proficiency, and luck will get you close.

LOL! So luck does factor in, even after "bull****".

 

[ClimbnSink]

LOL! So luck does factor in, even after "bull****".

Free your mind and you can make your own luck.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What makes you think I'm being flippant? I was asking a question out of genuine curiousity.

From the data in a Cessna 172N POH (1978) found online:

At 40 degrees flaps:
kias = [40 50 60 70 80 85]
kcas = [47 54 62 71 81 86]

Stall speed at 40 degrees flaps = 44 kcas - that translates to 35.7 kias if we do a linear extrapolation of the above data.

1.3* 44 = 57 kcas or 54 kias Which is actually below the recommended approach speed of 55-65 kias

Doing the math using indicated air speed 1.3* 35.7 = 46.4 kias (51 kcas)

 

[RussR]

Agreed. The first paragraph should contain the phrases "flying at low altitude, the aircraft collided with a shovel."

A Cessna 172 I used to fly was destroyed, I am told, in a collision with a cow. No, not one that wandered onto the runway or even anywhere near an airport.

 

[ifconfig]

From the data in a Cessna 172N POH (1978) found online:

At 40 degrees flaps:
kias = [40 50 60 70 80 85]
kcas = [47 54 62 71 81 86]

Stall speed at 40 degrees flaps = 44 kcas - that translates to 35.7 kias if we do a linear extrapolation of the above data.

1.3* 44 = 57 kcas or 54 kias Which is actually below the recommended approach speed of 55-65 kias

Doing the math using indicated air speed 1.3* 35.7 = 46.4 kias (51 kcas)

Now that's a veritably cogent answer. Thanks, Captain!
As I said in the original post, it "sounded good" but it seems it's not.

 

[FastEddieB]

You ever shot a gun?.

Yes.

Which do you think is more accurate? A pistol or a rifle?

All thing being equal, the rifle. For at least two reasons, the main one being sight radius, which is the one relevant to this discussion, I think.

Again, whatever works for you. My job was often to teach landings initially or to troubleshoot when landings were inconsistent.

So, on "my side" you have...

1) Me (as background, 4,500 hours of dual given)

2) Bill Kershner*

3) The FAA (in the Airplane Flying Handbook)**

4) At least one study that confirms where skilled pilots are actually looking.

Another point is peripheral vision. Works both ways:

1) If you're focusing on the far end of the runway, you may still have adequate peripheral cues from the side to effect good landings, and,

2) If you're looking where I recommend, you may still have adequate peripheral cues to maintain position on and alignment with the runway.

I spent a lot of time instructing from the back of Citabria, so my view of the far end of the runway consisted of the front pilot's back and shoulders.

But if you fly a plane with good visibility over the nose and the far end of the runway works for you, please do not change a thing.

* for those not familiar: http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/181579-1.html?redirected=1

**

 

[ifconfig]

Perhaps this is I'm starting to think that teaching full-stall landings to newbies may be robbing them of that view of the runway required to know where the ground is. If you don't know where the ground is because you can't, you can't land with authority merely wishing. Peripheral vision acquisition for neophytes may be asking too much of them.

 

[FastEddieB]

Perhaps this is I'm starting to think that teaching full-stall landings to newbies may be robbing them of that view of the runway required to know where the ground is.

This is where The Law Of Primacy, which CFI's are taught, must be considered.

In short, what you learn first tends to leave the strongest impression.

I was taught full flap, full stall landings as the norm from the beginning. In a Cessna 150 with 40° of flaps. To this day they remain my SOP, conditions permitting.

And the Private Pilot Practical Standards call for an applicant to demonstrate landings "at approximate stall speed". So, regardless of where you start, you need to end up with that skill.

I think many pilots are more comfortable with partial flaps and higher touchdown speed because they were initially taught that way.

But if a given instructor wants to start with flatter/faster touchdown and/or partial flaps as an initial standard, I respect that. But at some point that student still needs to get comfortable with full flap, full stall landings. Watching landings at a busy airport and you can see many, if not most, pilots get very far away from that goal, and I suspect their initial training is part of that.

 

[alfadog]

LOL! So luck does factor in, even after "bull****".

Yes, it factors in to getting a "perfect" landing but saying "The greatest contributing factor to the perfect landing — is luck" is bull**** and an attitude that is not conducive to becoming a proficient pilot.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

My Favorite Tip #1

Tip #1:

My approach "aha" moment came when my instructor quoted the old adage, "If you want to go up, pull back." If you want to go down, pull back."

Of course, it's more complicated than that (e.g., when pulling back, increase power to go up). But that said...

When on final, if you are too high, resist the tendency to lose altitude by pointing the nose down. You'll actually (in most planes) get closer to "best glide" and make the problem worse. Instead, increase pitch to get below best glide. For a moment, it looks like you'll land long. But in short order (even in a 172), you'll sink faster and arrive without surplus speed.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

My Favorite Tip #2

Tip #2

To help make landings smooth, shift eyes up to the "end of the runway" on flare. This increases the accuracy of your sense of altitude. Ever since doing this, most of my landings are greasers. Even when I fly a new plane, my first landing is usually spot-on.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

My rules. These are for me. Not everyone else.

1. Never bank more than 20 degrees in the pattern. (Go Arounds are way cooler than taking risks)

2. Always request flight following. (pattern work excluded)

3. ALWAYS check the ATIS when coming into an airport. (it is not just weather. ATIS has saved me from landing on wrong runways, landing at closed airports, provided complex procedures at busy airports, etc. This was not emphasized enough in my training)

4. Climb in the pattern before departing the area. This way, I have an airport right under me while I am still low. I continue to fly the pattern sometimes 3 or 4 times while climbing then head out.

5. At night, I prefer to fly from airport to airport (not landing at them, just flying over them) I mark all the airports enroute and fly point to point until I get to my destination

Above all, listen to your gut / that little voice in your head. If it says "maybe this is not the best time for me to fly" get back in the car.


At any rate, those are my personal rules. I know they cost me a bit more fuel and time, and I can certainly bank 45 degrees while descending base to final and make the runway but if I am having to do that, the first link in the chain has already been established. Better to quit adding links.

 

[Henning]

Trim, trim, trim, every time you change speed or configuration, you change trim.

 

[ifconfig]

Yes, it factors in to getting a "perfect" landing but saying "The greatest contributing factor to the perfect landing — is luck" is bull**** and an attitude that is not conducive to becoming a proficient pilot.

Gee rough crowd. OK, thanks for the input.

 

[Henning]

My rules. These are for me. Not everyone else.

1. Never bank more than 20 degrees in the pattern. (Go Arounds are way cooler than taking risks)

That is scary for one major reason to me... It will very likely lead to you skidding turns in the pattern, and that is far mor dangerous than than getting the bloody wing down. Bank angle does nothing to stall speed in and of itself, it's load factor that does it. What I see quite frequently with people who are afraid to get the wing down in the pattern is that they push the turns with the rudder, and this is where you die. Skidding turns turn into spins instantaneously when the wing stalls. It's not like a slip where the low wing has to come up and over the plane to enter the spin, no, in a skid the low wing stalls firs and tucks right under the plane, and at pattern altitudes, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to catch it quick enough to save your life.

Get the wing down, 45° isn't much anyway, it's only a load factor of about 1.3 in level flight. Better to get the nose down or put in some throttle and keep the turn coordinated at a steeper bank angle than to skid the turn. One day you're going to be in crappy enough conditions that you don't want to or won't be able to go around, that's the point where you don't want bad habits and fear of getting the wing down to be messing up your flying.

 

[ifconfig]

By the way, I'm fully in the teach full-stall landings camp. I just think that perhaps on starting to teach landing technique, perhaps it's best to teach a procedure that does not take away the student's ability to know where the ground is ... with time and experience and proper judgement of height and lateral displacement using peripheral vision, a migration to full-stall landings can be made?

 

[ifconfig]

My rules. These are for me. Not everyone else.

4. Climb in the pattern before departing the area. This way, I have an airport right under me while I am still low. I continue to fly the pattern sometimes 3 or 4 times while climbing then head out.

5. At night, I prefer to fly from airport to airport (not landing at them, just flying over them) I mark all the airports enroute and fly point to point until I get to my destination
.

I like these two actually, number four especially. Thanks.

 

[ifconfig]

Re: My Favorite Tip #1

Tip #1:
When on final, if you are too high, resist the tendency to lose altitude by pointing the nose down. You'll actually (in most planes) get closer to "best glide" and make the problem worse. Instead, increase pitch to get below best glide. For a moment, it looks like you'll land long. But in short order (even in a 172), you'll sink faster and arrive without surplus speed.

This is new and interesting to me. What do you do with power?

 

[Henning]

By the way, I'm fully in the teach full-stall landings camp. I just think that perhaps on starting to teach landing technique, perhaps it's best to teach a procedure that does not take away the student's ability to know where the ground is ... with time and experience and proper judgement of height and lateral displacement using peripheral vision, a migration to full-stall landings can be made?

Take the plane, full nose up trim, roll out on the runway, throttle up nd hold the yoke back and get the nose off the ground, reduce throttle and drive it down the runway in that condition. Look forward and pay attention to your peripheral vision and that sight picture. That is the sight picture you will be transitioning to on touch down. You don't really need to 'know' exactly where the runway is, you just need to be close and control your sink rate, the plane will find the runway level on its own, promise, just keep flying the airplane.

 

[ifconfig]

That is scary for one major reason to me... It will very likely lead to you skidding turns in the pattern ...

I was just reading about this yesterday, and the instructor agreed with this sentiment about bank angles. Let me find the reference ...

 

[dell30rb]

Fearless tower is right that its much easier to judge side drift if you are looking down the runway. When making wheel landings, i'm focused on some spot maybe 1000' down centerline.

Some aircraft though, you have no forward visibility and you can learn to control side drift with peripheral vision. It took me awhile to learn how to do it, but I can touch down with no side drift if i'm 3 pointing a tailwheel airplane. Wheel landing though, i'm gonna be looking down the centerline a ways.

My #1 tip is to continue practicing. Go once a month by yourself and go through some power off 180's, short field landings and really work on your stick and rudder skills. Play around, ride a wheelie down the runway or slow fly it at 1' off the deck for a few thousand feet.

 

[ifconfig]

In a Cessna where you can see out the back of the aircraft, I've heard a good tip is to not turn downwind until the tail assembly is past the runway. This will help ensure a half-mile distance. Will have to try this ...

 

[Henning]

In a Cessna where you can see out the back of the aircraft, I've heard a good tip is to not turn downwind until the tail assembly is past the runway. This will help ensure a half-mile distance. Will have to try this ...

Half mile distance? Who set that standard? Are you training in an airliner?

 

[EdFred]

Never leave ground effect at an indicated air speed less than Vx, no matter how many people are watching.

As with all blanket statements this isn't an absolute.

 

[kgruber]

When you switch fuel tanks, keep your hand on the selector until continued engine operation is assured. About 30 seconds will do. If the engine quits, go back to the previous tank.

When you select "gear down," keep your hand on the gear selector until the gear completely cycles and the three green light illuminate and the red extinguishes. Then remove your hand.

 

[ifconfig]

Half mile distance? Who set that standard? Are you training in an airliner?

LOL! I suppose you use a tighter pattern?

 

[ifconfig]

As with all blanket statements this isn't an absolute.

Including that one? :wink2:

 

[ifconfig]

When you switch fuel tanks, keep your hand on the selector until continued engine operation is assured. About 30 seconds will do. If the engine quits, go back to the previous tank.

When you select "gear down," keep your hand on the gear selector until the gear completely cycles and the three green light illuminate and the red extinguishes. Then remove your hand.

Great tip, thank you!

 

[Henning]

LOL! I suppose you use a tighter pattern?

In a basic training plane, most definitely, use the 45° rule.

 

[dell30rb]

Half mile distance? Who set that standard? Are you training in an airliner?

The coveted C172-800

 

[Henning]

"There are three secrets to getting perfect landings every time.

Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are!" :wink2:

Here is a recipe for landings, the key words are proper speed and trim.

Go up, do stall practice. During the power off 'approach to landing' stalls, note the exact speed the plane stalls at. Go into the POH IAS-CAS conversion table and find the appropriate CAS, multiply that by 1.3, go back into the table and find the corresponding indicated air speed for that calibrated airspeed. That will be the speed you want to get to when leveling wings out onto final.

Next is to to do some slow flight, and I mean slow.
Get the flaps all the way out and slow the plane down to the 1.3Vso speed you found before and trim the plane for that speed. Make a notation of what power you are using to stay level. Now pull the power to idle, don't change trim or apply back pressure or forward pressure, just let the plane settle in on its trim speed, note your rate of descent. Start adding power until you are at a 500' rate of descent, note that, It's your target trim and power settings that you want to be at finishing turning base to final. Keep adding power and noting how much rate of descent/climb changes for every 200 rpm, while you're at it, note the sound difference between those various rates. Now lets slow it down so the stall horn is blaring continuously, and note how many flicks of the trim wheel it takes to trim for that speed. Again, run a quick power drill as before, noting what power you are at for a 200fpm descent. This is your target power and trim to be at coming in low over the threshold ready to flare for touch down.

Now put it together in the pattern so you turn base to final trimming up to your 1.3Vso speed corrected for actual weight (the first exercise) and setting the power for the 500fpm rate of descent. Note the height of the threshold in the windshield. If you notice it creeping up the windshield, add power until it stabilizes position, don't change pitch, change power and let trim handle speed and pitch. If you see the threshold going down in the windshield, reduce power until it stabilizes.

At this point you should be on a stabilized descent that will take you to the runway at 1.3 Vso hands off. Once you get 'over the fence add in those flicks of the trim wheel in that you figured hen you got into the second phase of the slow flight drill when you took it down to where the stall horn came on and set the power for the 200fpm descent and fine tune it from there to get a nice rate of descent with the stall horn on. As you feel the descent slowing, you'll be coming into ground effect, and this is where you pull the power out and let the plane settle in.

 

[EdFred]

Including that one? :wink2:

Yep. Was giving some instruction to someone who had never landed or taken off on grass fields at a fly in. They had a 182 with the old flip/flop pitot cover that's supposed to flip up at a certain airspeed. We were doing well above what should have flipped to cover open. Wind was calm so ground speed pretty much was equal to airspeed. She called out 0 airspeed, I looked at the pitot cover, stated what the issue was, and by looking outside we could both tell when we would have enough airspeed to lift off. I said, "your choice to shut it down or not." She elected to continue. I had no problem with that.

Flew over to another airport 5nm away, and she also got a lesson in what to do when you have a failed airspeed indicator. Landing was as good as any other I have seen, and she got a bonus lesson that day.

 

[ifconfig]

In a basic training plane, most definitely, use the 45° rule.

On the crosswind to downwind turn?

 

[Henning]

On the crosswind to downwind turn?

All, actually crosswind depends on the runway length, if the runway is long enough, I'll be turning crosswind before the end. Downwind I want the runway down to the side at a 45, turning base I want the runway behind me at a 45. This pretty much assures me that I make the runway regardless what happens to power.