That One Tip

All, actually crosswind depends on the runway length, if the runway is long enough, I'll be turning crosswind before the end. Downwind I want the runway down to the side at a 45, turning base I want the runway behind me at a 45. This pretty much assures me that I make the runway regardless what happens to power.

And since you aren't using a spot on the strut or wing, it works for different planes. And if you are flying different pattern altitudes (I've seen published patterns of 800, 1000, 1200, and 1500) the higher the pattern the further it puts you from the airport, so the turns and descent should still work out regardless of the pattern altitude you are flying.
 
And since you aren't using a spot on the strut or wing, it works for different planes.

Can I ask how many different planes a student pilot gets to fly? I'd wager maybe two but mostly just the one?
 
On the crosswind to downwind turn?

Did you think he was referring to bank? I think he meant angle from the runway end.

Anyway, I agree with iHenning - I think artificially setting low bank limits in the pattern is a recipe for skidding turns.

I'm OK with 30° or even 40° or possibly up to 45°, as long as the plane is coordinated.

I'll check some of my videos, but I'd guess I average 30° to 35° in a normal pattern.
 
Can I ask how many different planes a student pilot gets to fly? I'd wager maybe two but mostly just the one?

I flew 7 including an Arrow, 172RG, 182, Navion,and Beech 18 along with the 150/150, normal 150, 152, 172, & Archer.
 
I flew 7 including an Arrow, 172RG, 182, Navion,and Beech 18 along with the 150/150, normal 150, 152, 172, & Archer.

Ah but Henning, you are one in a million, ja? :yes:
 
Can I ask how many different planes a student pilot gets to fly? I'd wager maybe two but mostly just the one?

I think I flew 4 different models on my way to private. Two high wings, two low wings. And I did it in 40 hours, so it wasn't like it was a 7 year 300 hour ordeal where I had to use a bunch of different instructors or flight schools. I got checked out in each of them so if one was busy, I could hop in another one.
 
Never leave ground effect at an indicated air speed less than Vx, no matter how many people are watching.

As with all blanket statements this isn't an absolute.

And possibly contrary to the guidance in the POH. The 172SP, to use a popular example, uses 56 kias as a climbout speed for short-field takeoffs. Vx is 62 kias.
 
That is scary for one major reason to me... It will very likely lead to you skidding turns in the pattern, and that is far mor dangerous than than getting the bloody wing down. Bank angle does nothing to stall speed in and of itself, it's load factor that does it. What I see quite frequently with people who are afraid to get the wing down in the pattern is that they push the turns with the rudder, and this is where you die. Skidding turns turn into spins instantaneously when the wing stalls. It's not like a slip where the low wing has to come up and over the plane to enter the spin, no, in a skid the low wing stalls firs and tucks right under the plane, and at pattern altitudes, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to catch it quick enough to save your life.

Get the wing down, 45° isn't much anyway, it's only a load factor of about 1.3 in level flight. Better to get the nose down or put in some throttle and keep the turn coordinated at a steeper bank angle than to skid the turn. One day you're going to be in crappy enough conditions that you don't want to or won't be able to go around, that's the point where you don't want bad habits and fear of getting the wing down to be messing up your flying.


Thanks for your response. My instructor drilled it onto us that we need no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern.

I am going to get up to altitude and practice flying patterns different ways.

I have noticed in not banking beyond 20, I fly much wider patterns (have to) and I do use the rudder to kick it around but (and excuse my ignorance) I thought you had to be cross controlled to spin it in. If I am turning left base to final, I tend to add left rudder if I am slightly off.

Don't want to derail this thread so PM me as much information you are willing to type up on this subject.


Edit: have to be uncoordinated not cross controlled.
Thanks again.
 
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Another factor...

...whether you're high wing or low wing, a wing will block visibility while you're in the turn in most planes in one direction or the other (though my Sky Arrow is an rare exception to that).

So, shallow turns can keep you blind for longer - I'd much rather see a bit more bank - get the turn over with, as it were.

But whatever works for you - and stay coordinated whatever you do!
 
I thought you had to be cross controlled to spin it in.

Nope, only uncoordinated. A skidding or slipping turn is all you need. Remember when you were doing stall training and your instructor kept harping you about keeping the ball centered? That's why.
 
I think I flew 4 different models on my way to private. Two high wings, two low wings. And I did it in 40 hours, so it wasn't like it was a 7 year 300 hour ordeal where I had to use a bunch of different instructors or flight schools. I got checked out in each of them so if one was busy, I could hop in another one.

Bully for you! Those who goeth before me have warned to keep things simple and stick with one make & model but that could have been just them.
 
Nope, only uncoordinated. A skidding or slipping turn is all you need. Remember when you were doing stall training and your instructor kept harping you about keeping the ball centered? That's why.

For spins: skidding, yes. Slipping, perhaps not.
 
Here's a screen shot of a base-to-final turn at Copperhill, TN in my Sky Arrow:

11406390666_97ff2087c8_c.jpg


Hard to tell the exact bank angle due to the wide angle distortion (no, my left wing is NOT bent :eek:), but probably around 35º maybe?

Anyway, two edited trips around the pattern linked below, the second a power-off practice from altitude:

http://youtu.be/dhauE4oUeE0

Best viewed in HD.
 
Ah but Henning, you are one in a million, ja? :yes:

Outside of the Beech 18 that I was trading boat rides for plane rides with an MEI/Chief Pilot of a freight operation to Catalina with and the Navion that I helped the old guy hang the engine on, that was typical for the flight school I trained at. When you were done with your PP you had Complex and High Performance endorsements as well. Typically they would use those planes on the Cross Countries where miles counted more than hours since the price wasn't too far off using a 152. Another thing was that way by the time you had your PP you could rent anything in the school's fleet outside the Seneca without an extra checkout. Pretty much everyone also took their check rides right at 40 hrs.
 
Thanks for your response. My instructor drilled it onto us that we need no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern.

I am going to get up to altitude and practice flying patterns different ways.

I have noticed in not banking beyond 20, I fly much wider patterns (have to) and I do use the rudder to kick it around but (and excuse my ignorance) I thought you had to be cross controlled to spin it in. If I am turning left base to final, I tend to add left rudder if I am slightly off.

Don't want to derail this thread so PM me as much information you are willing to type up on this subject.


Edit: have to be uncoordinated not cross controlled.
Thanks again.

That, combined with holding 20° bank is what will produce the skid and set you up for the spin. Rather than a stall warning, more planes actually need a 'ball out of cage' warning. Anytime you have to put in more rudder to make the turn, you also need more bank angle to maintain coordination.

If you are stepping on left rudder to tighten the turn and holding right aileron to maintain bank angle, you are cross controlled. If you step on left rudder the left wing will want to go down with it.

As for pattern size, here's a bit of a funny video that pokes at the truth about many CFIs. Remember, most CFIs don't know any more than they were taught.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f6q2VKsvQEQ
 
Here's a pattern I flew a while back, some crosswind as well. I was #2 behind a Cirrus who thought he was flying a 747, otherwise I would have turned base at about half the distance from the threshold. As it was I did a 360 on downwind so I wouldn't have to fly into the next bloody county waiting on him. Note the bank angles and the fact that we did not die.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lFR0BKqTs6U
 
Thanks for your response. My instructor drilled it onto us that we need no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern.

I am going to get up to altitude and practice flying patterns different ways.

I have noticed in not banking beyond 20, I fly much wider patterns (have to) and I do use the rudder to kick it around but (and excuse my ignorance) I thought you had to be cross controlled to spin it in. If I am turning left base to final, I tend to add left rudder if I am slightly off.
And that is one of the popular causes of death among pilots - the base to final stall / spin accident caused by using the rudder to skid around the turn. Do that a little too slow and you are done. Forever.

Watch coordination, speed, and backpressure - not bank.
 
The rules of thumb on "the runway isn't moving up or down the windshield" only work if you also nail your speed.

You can dive and drive straight at any point without it moving, at full throttle. Doesn't mean you'll be able to land on it. ;)

Just keep in mind it's alllll interrelated.
 
Nope, only uncoordinated. A skidding or slipping turn is all you need. Remember when you were doing stall training and your instructor kept harping you about keeping the ball centered? That's why.

Slipping in the turn is one of favorite things in the pattern. I usually use full opposite rudder and whatever aileron I need to bring it around. Great way to lose altitude.
 
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Thanks for your response. My instructor drilled it onto us that we need no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern.

I am going to get up to altitude and practice flying patterns different ways.

I have noticed in not banking beyond 20, I fly much wider patterns (have to) and I do use the rudder to kick it around but (and excuse my ignorance) I thought you had to be cross controlled to spin it in. If I am turning left base to final, I tend to add left rudder if I am slightly off.

Wow. Add a bit more back pressure and you are good to go. If by "good to go" we mean smoking wreckage.

Listen, if the airplane does not fall out of the sky when you are practicing steep turns at altitude, it will not magically begin to fall out of the sky if you, heaven forfend, bank it 45d in the pattern.
 
Slipping in the turn is one of favorite things in the pattern. I usually use full opposite rudder and whatever aileron I need to bring it around. Great way to lose altitude.




My favorite is to fly downwind right over the runway centerline. Then just past the grass, roll inverted and do a half loop down to the pavement. :rolleyes:
 
How far off can the numbers be, do you think?

What makes you think I'm being flippant? I was asking a question out of genuine curiousity.

I perceived your response seemed to dismiss my warning about IAS vs. CAS. This is why you shouldn't dismiss it:

From the data in a Cessna 172N POH (1978) found online:

At 40 degrees flaps:
kias = [40 50 60 70 80 85]
kcas = [47 54 62 71 81 86]

Stall speed at 40 degrees flaps = 44 kcas - that translates to 35.7 kias if we do a linear extrapolation of the above data.

1.3* 44 = 57 kcas or 54 kias Which is actually below the recommended approach speed of 55-65 kias

Doing the math using indicated air speed 1.3* 35.7 = 46.4 kias (51 kcas)

In a 172R, landing speed is 60-70 knots.
 
I perceived your response seemed to dismiss my warning about IAS vs. CAS. This is why you shouldn't dismiss it:



In a 172R, landing speed is 60-70 knots.

Final Approach Speed is 60-65 kts, landing speed is 44 or less depending on weight. The other day I was doing a short field landing for my BFR in a 172 when the CFI noticed we were below the white arc "we're still flying aren't we?" "Yep" "You hear a stall horn?" "Nope" "we're fine". Remember, the numbers in the book are at Max Gross Weight, they go down from there. We only had half tank of fuel and the CFI and I combined didn't weigh 300lbs. If you're going to fly the numbers, then derive the correct numbers for your weight, if not, then just fly the airplane.
 
Final Approach Speed is 60-65 kts, landing speed is 44 or less depending on weight. The other day I was doing a short field landing for my BFR in a 172 when the CFI noticed we were below the white arc "we're still flying aren't we?" "Yep" "You hear a stall horn?" "Nope" "we're fine". Remember, the numbers in the book are at Max Gross Weight, they go down from there. We only had half tank of fuel and the CFI and I combined didn't weigh 300lbs. If you're going to fly the numbers, then derive the correct numbers for your weight, if not, then just fly the airplane.


I clicked on your slideshow, and that's a beautiful 310 inside and out.

I agree with something you said in another thread the older one's, I like them better. The newer one's look like a cyborg bug.
 
I clicked on your slideshow, and that's a beautiful 310 inside and out.

I agree with something you said in another thread the older one's, I like them better. The newer one's look like a cyborg bug.

Thanks, yeah, if it wasn't a D model, I wouldn't even have gone and looked at it, when I saw the condition it was in, I couldn't really let it pass lol. To think I wasn't even looking for a plane when I got called about it coming up for sale.:rofl:
 
Thanks, yeah, if it wasn't a D model, I wouldn't even have gone and looked at it, when I saw the condition it was in, I couldn't really let it pass lol. To think I wasn't even looking for a plane when I got called about it coming up for sale.:rofl:




That's what I've learned. A plane finds you, you don't find it.

I've looked at many planes I thought I wanted, and none of them are in my hangar. The deals just never 'jelled.'

Our 180 found me. It was not even for sale. But the older pilot/owner liked me and practically gave it to me. It went smooth as butter. We're great friends.
 
In a 172R, landing speed is 60-70 knots.

Often in these discussions, some of the debate centers around definitions.

What do you mean by "landing speed"?

60k -70k sounds about right for final approach in a C172.

Sounds fast for touchdown speed, which could be much slower, conditions permitting. The 44k that Henning gave sounds about right, again, conditions permitting.

For comparison, a Cirrus SR22 - a heavier and faster plane - can touch down consistently at about 60k with full flaps.

As a reminder, some time in the early 70's (I think), planes were standardized so that the arcs and lines on the airspeed indicator were in CAS. Hence, one no longer needed to convert IAS to CAS, at least regarding those markings.

I'm recalling this right, aren't I?
 
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Final Approach Speed is 60-65 kts, landing speed is 44 or less depending on weight. The other day I was doing a short field landing for my BFR in a 172 when the CFI noticed we were below the white arc "we're still flying aren't we?" "Yep" "You hear a stall horn?" "Nope" "we're fine". Remember, the numbers in the book are at Max Gross Weight, they go down from there. We only had half tank of fuel and the CFI and I combined didn't weigh 300lbs. If you're going to fly the numbers, then derive the correct numbers for your weight, if not, then just fly the airplane.

Was practicing slow flight in a Warrior recently. The bottom of the white arc is 44, with me and the instructor I can usually get the speed down to about 40 before the plane truly stalls (in level straight flight). Combined the instructor and I weigh around 400lbs with another 200lbs of fuel. Granted the stall horn was going off, but the plane was holding altitude. One of the most important things I have learned so far is the plane does want to fly, and is not a giant boulder wanting to fall as many non pilots seem to think. But the CFI does stress not over-banking the final turns, we seem to be just shy of standard rate when slow in the pattern.

Unlike the people learning in 172's (from what I have read), The Warrior seems to require much less rudder, in basic "normal speed" maneuvers, you need very little for coordination, and slow flight you tend to find the happy spot and glue you foot there. Otherwise the basic numbers for approach, various v's, etc are almost identical.
 
Standard rate is not a bank angle, and it's very slow in the pattern. You really take 30 seconds for the base to final turn?

I'd suggest flying a "pattern" at altitude, to see how much bank it really takes to stall at 60 KIAS. While respect for the stall/spin scenario close to the ground is very important, it's badly overdone sometimes.

Warriors and 172s fly very similarly.
 
My favorite is to fly downwind right over the runway centerline. Then just past the grass, roll inverted and do a half loop down to the pavement. :rolleyes:

Sweet. I was practicing landing in a turn in the Luscombe and got some very strange looks. Here Brian Lansburgh shows you how it is done.

 
One tip I heard from a CFI at KFXE where there's usually quite a bit of sun: on the ground taxiing, if your shadows do not overlap you will not hit the other aircraft regardless of the sun's angle.
 
One tip I heard from a CFI at KFXE where there's usually quite a bit of sun: on the ground taxiing, if your shadows do not overlap you will not hit the other aircraft regardless of the sun's angle.

I am in Miami where there is a similar amount of sun (LOL) and I can tell you that the only way that would make any sense at all is not if shadows overlap but if any part of your shadow intersects the other aircraft's sheet metal or vice versa. Still, that is nothing that I would bet sheet metal and AMU's on.
 
One tip I heard from a CFI at KFXE where there's usually quite a bit of sun: on the ground taxiing, if your shadows do not overlap you will not hit the other aircraft regardless of the sun's angle.

Sorry, that makes no sense.

Suppose it's local noon and the sun is directly in the south.

Aircraft A lines up on one end of an east/west taxiway. Aircraft B lines up at the other. Both aircraft's shadows point north; there is no intersection. Both taxi to the center of the taxiway. Shadows do not intersect until an instant before collision.

Are you trying to determine if an aircraft will clear an obstacle on the ground? I wouldn't bet my leading edges or my prop on that, though it will work if you taxi extremely slowly (well below the walking speed taught to students). It's a whole lot more reliable to just look directly.

There are also some times and places (tropics) where vertical objects cast no shadows at all. In a low wing aircraft, you won't be able to see your own shadow.
 
Sorry, that makes no sense. …

Are you trying to determine if an aircraft will clear an obstacle on the ground? I wouldn't bet my leading edges or my prop on that, though it will work if you taxi extremely slowly (well below the walking speed taught to students). It's a whole lot more reliable to just look directly.

In the few times I've done it, it was to judge if I was clear of another aircraft as I taxiied past. Every time I've tried it, it worked. YMMV.
 
I am in Miami where there is a similar amount of sun (LOL) and I can tell you that the only way that would make any sense at all is not if shadows overlap but if any part of your shadow intersects the other aircraft's sheet metal or vice versa. Still, that is nothing that I would bet sheet metal and AMU's on.

Intersect, overlap? H'm.
 
Sweet. I was practicing landing in a turn in the Luscombe and got some very strange looks. Here Brian Lansburgh shows you how it is done.

I wish I was a tenth of the pilot this guy is.
 
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