10 years from now, this story will be funny

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dreaming89

Filing Flight Plan
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Jul 14, 2013
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Benjamin
But right now, I'm facing a tidal wave of embarrassment and maybe more.

I've posted a couple other threads here on my struggles for my ppl. Seriously. I'm going to break a record for money/time spent. The latest chapter in this epic battle goes something like this:

After soloing with a flight school at an uncontrolled airport earlier this year, I was never able to regain my touch for landings. I believe the issue was the flight instructor being anal about everything. I only soloed once, and quit after like 10 lessons when the school wouldn't clear me to solo because my attitude when landing was always wrong in their opinion. I lost faith in my ability to fly and didn't even look at an airport for 4 months.

Now fast forward to October. I decided to go to a different school. The instructor I had was perfect for me- someone who didn't point the finger if i was 50 feet off traffic pattern altitude. All my landings here were golden. Though I did have one concern before joining the school- it's located at a controlled airport. I dislike talking to tower and being given commands. I dislike crowded airspace- which is why an airport is controlled in the first place.
I just like coordinating with pilots--less formal and more relaxed in my opinion.

After 3 lessons with the new school, the instructor said i was ready for my "second first solo". I felt one thing was lacking though-- my communication skills. I wasn't eager to bring this to the cfi's attention because I just really wanted to feel the magic of being in the plane by myself again. I felt deep down inside that I could handle everything tower would throw at me and tried to dismiss the former belief as a symptom of nervousness and nothing else.

The first pattern went off without a hitch. Why? It was a typical left closed traffic pattern with no special requests from the tower. When I landed the tower even said "you're doing a good job!"

Feeling confident, I taxied back over to the runway when hell began. First mistake- atc tells me to "line up and wait". Uhhmmm. What? I've heard this before, but didn't really understand what to do. Now I know the tower wanted me on the runway before takeoff. The controller told me what to do and I sat on the runway before getting the green light to perform my second pattern. I was embarrassed, but this wasn't going to ruin my special moment.

I get to crosswind and notice another cessna on the downwind. Had I continued on the crosswind and the cessna continued on its downwind, things would have gotten ugly. I adjusted my crosswind so that I was behind the cessna, but not by much. The plane ahead of me radioed to the tower that they were midfield. Maybe like 20-25 seconds later, I radioed that I was midfield. Maybe that gives you a hint of how close we were. I radioed to tower that I'd be doing a right 360 to give us separation. Now here is when things got real dicey

I lost sight of the cessna after the 360. Tower tells me I'm second to land after a king air. I'm baffled when I hear this. What happened to the cessna? I must have missed something. Anyway, I now set my sights on finding that king air. Unfortunately for me, it's a severe clear day and I'm flying directly into the sun at 3:30 pm in mid november, when the sun is right smack dab in your line of sight. Because of this, I'm unable to see the king air on final. Oh well, I thought, tower will just call me to tell me I'm # 1 once the king air is down. I'll just continue going downwind for a minute or so.

10 minutes later, I'm still going downwind. I'm afraid to turn base because I haven't seen the king air and tower hasn't been communicating with me. I know, I know, I'm stupid. Finally I radio over to tower and ask what's going on. They had totally lost sight of me, and what wasn't helping is that my transponder was malfunctioning. They didn't have an altitude reading or anything. (Yes, it was switched on alt). And here is where I got really upset: Tower kept on saying to me "ident" "ident". i confessed to them in a defeated voice: "I don't understand". They talked me through it and told me to press the ident button. Damn! Now I really feel incompetent!

While this is going on, I turn crosswind thinking the king air had to of passed me by now. Tower asks for my position....uhm, hold on tower! I turn on the gps and see I am 10 miles out!! yikes. This is turning into a xc. From that point on, things got a lot easier. No other traffic to deal with. Only issue was finding the runway. Got it. Pheww.

Then I'm on a 2 mile final and I see tower clearing a jet to take off. As the jet is on its roll i asked for confirmation that i was clear to land. it just seemed to close for comfort. If it was uncontrolled i would have definitely of done a 360 before coming in. Tower says I'm good to go. Wow, I thought the landing would be the most stressful part of the pattern. But after what I had just gone through, I was sooo relieved to be on this last stretch. Doesn't matter though, clearly my nerves had been rattled and I bounced the landing. I clear the runway and decide it would probably be best to call it a day and forego that 3rd pattern.

I don't know what the school has in store for me. I don't know if they thought this was acceptable or if they are going to really hammer down on me. They were ambiguous when I talked with them after. Oh well. This just adds to my legacy I guess. Could have been a lot worse. Need to count my lucky stars I am embarrassed and that's it.
 
Good things come to those who practice - keep at it.

When I solo'd, I was so nervous - it was very unexpected. It was a busy, controlled field, with a typical 5 planes in the pattern whenever I flew (PAO). I talked myself through the whole pattern, from upwind all the way around to final. As I entered the ground-effect and was about half way through my flare, a large bird low-flies across the runway right in front of me. I was too slow to safely do anything about it, so I continued the flare ... and broke his neck when I hit him with the landing gear strut. They had to close the airport until the maintenance guys could get out there and collect my roadkill.

Things happen. Just keep your cool, and learn from it. With persistence, it'll become a story, and not a regret.
 
I learned at a class C, and the first time we went to a busy uncontrolled airport I was just as flustered. You'll get it.

As for "line up and wait", are you sure they didn't say "position and hold"? I've never received "line up and wait".
 
Believe it or not what you went through is good experience. Intense, but when you are flying CC for real and need to land at a busy airport you now have the skills to do it. You are actually a safer pilot IMHO now.

The flight school will be cool about it. Just debrief the flight with your CFI and see what he says.

I admire your determination.
 
You sound like you're doing fine! Were mistakes made? Of course, but mistakes are the most powerful teacher. The most important thing you did is decide to abort your third circuit... you weren't feeling comfortable and so you made the safe decision.

As to your training, you just need more practice communicating. I'm sure your school will recognize that and manage their end of it.
 
Don't worry. All it takes is time and practice. I think they're still laughing in the tower from the first time I tried to speak on the aircraft radio. And, keep in mind that my CFI and I were both Extra class hams. :D

Bill Jennings said:
I learned at a class C, and the first time we went to a busy uncontrolled airport I was just as flustered. You'll get it.

As for "line up and wait", are you sure they didn't say "position and hold"? I've never received "line up and wait".
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"Line up and wait" is the new "Position and hold". We must align with the international usage, don't you know? :yes:
 
You don't have to wait 10 years .:rofl:
You don't have to be embarrassed , we all have our moments but only some brave enough to talk about it.
Good luck with the rest of your training and thanks for sharing .
 
Hang in there, Benjamin. We've all been there. It'll come.
 
So glad I learned at one of the busiest Class D airports on the east coast, Teterboro (KTEB.):hairraise:.

dreaming89 said:
Tower tells me I'm second to land after a king air. I'm baffled when I hear this. What happened to the cessna? I must have missed something. Anyway, I now set my sights on finding that king air. Unfortunately for me, it's a severe clear day and I'm flying directly into the sun at 3:30 pm in mid november, when the sun is right smack dab in your line of sight. Because of this, I'm unable to see the king air on final. Oh well, I thought, tower will just call me to tell me I'm # 1 once the king air is down. I'll just continue going downwind for a minute or so.

10 minutes later, I'm still going downwind. I'm afraid to turn base because I haven't seen the king air and tower hasn't been communicating with me.
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I accidentally cut a guy off at Republic (KFRG) causing him to execute a right 360 for spacing.:mad2:

The pattern was very busy and tower said I was #3 behind xyz, which I thought was the guy on downwind, immediately in front of me. Well that guy was actually #1!

#2 was cleared straight in (which I must have missed:dunno:).


That taught me a valuable lesson. When the pattern is full and there is even the slightest uncertainty... ASK TOWER TO CALL YOUR BASE!!!

And don't hesitate to speak up if you think they forgot about you on downwind OR you lose sight of the traffic you're following.
 
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What the others said.

You actually did better than you think. You are still required to see and avoid when you are in controlled airspace like that, and you did a good job.

Next time, use a few more tools available to you - the controllers. If you lose sight of someone, or can't find the traffic they are pointing out, simply tell them. Rather than extend downwind that far, just let the controller know you don't see the King Air and ask if they can call your base for you.

It used to be more common to get a line up and wait, but I haven't had one for a long time and would probably take a few seconds to figure it out myself to make sure I heard it right.

When I was a student, I got a takeoff clearance so I rolled onto the rwy. Tower then told me to expedite. I hadn't heard that before and was letting it sink in. Meanwhile my CFI was telling me "GO, GO, GO".

If you had fun and learned something it was a good lesson.
 
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
 
At my airport " line up and wait " instruction from ATC is quite common. Savor the moment of soloing again. You did land safely after all.
 
Henning said:
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
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You OK Henning? Or did you leave an emoticon off that post. On the other hand, if you do have this figured out from the post, I think you're ready for a career in talk radio! :D

Edit: saw Dturri's post and that there is some history here...

To the OP, you did fine. Talk to your CFI about "call my base"
 
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Henning said:
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
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This. I spotted this way back when you started to post your experiences. You're a stubborn guy, Benjamin, and you refuse to take constructive criticism--gonna do it your way. Find some "magic" here on the ground. Sorry, I feel like Simon Cowell.

dtuuri
 
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Henning said:
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
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Oh, geez.....take your meds, Henning!

Hang in, there, Benjamin. It will all come together with practice.
 
I had a student who'd been through multiple "line up and wait" instructions presolo, but on her first solo she did a "line up and go"! The tower quickly cleared her for takeoff to save her bacon, then promptly called me by phone. She realized her error after the fact. Stuff happens.
 
I think there will always be a degree of discomfort when you go off on your own, but now you know what you should practice with your CFI.

I am working on my tailwheel endorsement now and I think sometimes we forget that the CFI is working for us and not the other way around! I try so hard to make him happy and I have to remind myself that I am a student and if I could do everything perfectly, I wouldn't need a CFI.

Also remember, this is not a race. CFIs do get paid-- and by you-- and most are just happy being in the air. :)

Sorry you are feeling discouraged, but learning is not always an upward curve. There are usually bumps along the way.
 
Sam D said:
You OK Henning? Or did you leave an emoticon off that post. On the other hand, if you do have this figured out from the post, I think you're ready for a career in talk radio! :D

Edit: saw Dturri's post and that there is some history here...

To the OP, you did fine. Talk to your CFI about "call my base"
Click to expand...

Nope, dead serious. The first cascading failure event and this guy is toast.
 
Henning said:
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
Click to expand...

Concur. Everything is everyone else's fault. I get the feeling he flew that 10 mile downwind to spite the controller for something too. My guess is tower gave him tone when he announced to them he was doing a 360 without approval. So he gets tone and to show them he's quiet and flies away.

Hennings right, quit.
 
working out of a controlled airport is a good thing IMO. My home base is uncontrolled, and I was very hesitant to go anywhere that was busy. Until I got my instrument rating and had to talk with ATC and towered airports, I was uncomfortable with a lot of the radio calls. the experience you are getting now will help a lot down the road.
 
Some of that sounds like a failure in your CFIs. They should've sat you down and reviewed basic tower phraseology like "line up and wait." This is an ICAO version of the old position and hold they we used to have. They're using that usually for wake turb or someone to clear your dept path. If you sit there for an extended period (2 mins) better contact ATC to see what the delay is. Ident? Something a CFI should have gone over with you long ago. When your transponder drops off the scope and then comes back ATC asks for ident to reidentify you.

I'm not sure how close all this traffic was without really seeing what you were seeing but if you're not sure what's going on, ask ATC. Keep a dialogue with them. "Do you want N12345 to follow the Cessna on downwind?" "N12345, negetitive contact on the King Air." Quiet is good when there's no traffic but when your transponder isn't working right you need to query ATC as to what the traffic situation. A lot of controllers have become reliant on radar in the twr in sequencing their traffic.
 
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Henning said:
You need to just quit, you are too 'needy' of everything to be 'your way' to be a safe pilot. You just get too flustered at any stressor.
Click to expand...


It's certainly something to ponder. But I do understand that it's easy for a student to get flustered and overwhelmed. You always have to remember that YOU are the pilot in command and then take control of the situation if it starts to get goofy.

If you think uncontrolled fields are less busy than towered airports, try flying at an uncontrolled field on a nice Saturday after a long week or two of bad wx. Mix in regular, student, NORDO, and head-up-the-ass traffic and you have a much more complicated environment for situational awareness than even a busy controlled airport. In many ways I prefer a tower.
 
FlylikeaGirl said:
I think there will always be a degree of discomfort when you go off on your own, but now you know what you should practice with your CFI.

I am working on my tailwheel endorsement now and I think sometimes we forget that the CFI is working for us and not the other way around! I try so hard to make him happy and I have to remind myself that I am a student and if I could do everything perfectly, I wouldn't need a CFI.

Also remember, this is not a race. CFIs do get paid-- and by you-- and most are just happy being in the air. :)

Sorry you are feeling discouraged, but learning is not always an upward curve. There are usually bumps along the way.
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Welcome to POA Tiffany.
 
You also need to realize that your CFI can't possibly prepare you for all of the phraseology and best practices in the 15 hours or so it takes to solo. You'll encounter lots of new situations and you need to be able to work through them without encountering a 'tidal wave of embarrassment' or whatever. If you are worried about that, just declare yourself a student pilot.

I can relate, i've had plenty of these experiences. Its called learning. I remember one day I was climbing out of a controlled airport, and the controller asked 'say altitude leaving' 2-3 times before I figured out what he wanted. Sure I felt like a doofus, but I didn't let it get to me...
 
Captain said:
Concur. Everything is everyone else's fault. I get the feeling he flew that 10 mile downwind to spite the controller for something too. My guess is tower gave him tone when he announced to them he was doing a 360 without approval. So he gets tone and to show them he's quiet and flies away.

Hennings right, quit.
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Half mile spacing on downwind being insufficient when he has traffic in sight shouldn't pose a problem, then having the exact wrong reaction of pulling a 360 losing sight of the traffic instead of just slowing down to increase separation.:dunno: The ADM is lacking and he has the attitude "I don't like this, therefor I shouldn't have to deal with it" is all just a non starter for serving as PIC. For the type of flying he wants to do he should stick to Pt 103 Ultralights where he can do the flying he wants, and when the time comes he only kills himself.
 
Henning said:
Half mile spacing on downwind being insufficient when he has traffic in sight shouldn't pose a problem, then having the exact wrong reaction of pulling a 360 losing sight of the traffic instead of just slowing down to increase separation.:dunno: The ADM is lacking and he has the attitude "I don't like this, therefor I shouldn't have to deal with it" is all just a non starter for serving as PIC. For the type of flying he wants to do he should stick to Pt 103 Ultralights where he can do the flying he wants, and when the time comes he only kills himself.
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Remember this is a low hour student. The 360 was a bad idea and certainly a first step in a multi link chain that probably scared the hell out of him.

The key thing I see here is the OP has not yet realized that visually how far apart planes really are. Both in talking about the plane in the pattern with him and the plane ready to takeoff.

I struggled early on with "Is that guy really going to takeoff? I am on final. WTF" Now I know plane on the numbers easily get out of the way especially a jet when you are on 2 mile final. (adjust for wake turbulence though) now if you are on 1/4 mile final and it is a 172 on the go (probably wouldn't happen at a towered airport) I might do the 360.

I don't think you should quit but I think you should spend more time with a CFI especially at towered fields. I would hold of on solo flying a bit longer.
Everyone has these moments you just reacted to issues that were not really issues, sort of causing your own problem.

relax.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Remember this is a low hour student. The 360 was a bad idea and certainly a first step in a multi link chain that probably scared the hell out of him.

The key thing I see here is the OP has not yet realized that visually how far apart planes really are. Both in talking about the plane in the pattern with him and the plane ready to takeoff.

I struggled early on with "Is that guy really going to takeoff? I am on final. WTF" Now I know plane on the numbers easily get out of the way especially a jet when you are on 2 mile final. (adjust for wake turbulence though) now if you are on 1/4 mile final and it is a 172 on the go (probably wouldn't happen at a towered airport) I might do the 360.

I don't think you should quit but I think you should spend more time with a CFI especially at towered fields. I would hold of on solo flying a bit longer.
Everyone has these moments you just reacted to issues that were not really issues, sort of causing your own problem.

relax.
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No, this is a high hour student pilot. Besides, my issue is not with his knowledge or ability, it's with his attitude and actions.
 
dtuuri said:
You wouldn't. :rolleyes:

dtuuri
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No clue what is meant by that.

I have not been following OP's prior posts so I only know from this thread.
Maybe there are more attitude issues than demonstrated in this thread.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
No clue what is meant by that.

I have not been following OP's prior posts so I only know from this thread.
Maybe there are more attitude issues than demonstrated in this thread.
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At 1/4 mile out you would be at less than 100'. I might make a 360 at 100' but most pilots I know are scared of maneuvering that low. Most likely from that point you would, and should, execute a go around climbing at Vx, stepping off to the right where you can keep the other aircraft in view while making your radio call then turning crosswind at midfield (adjusted for traffic on downwind) and re entering the pattern as best deemed appropriate.
 
Matthew said:
It's certainly something to ponder. But I do understand that it's easy for a student to get flustered and overwhelmed. You always have to remember that YOU are the pilot in command and then take control of the situation if it starts to get goofy.

If you think uncontrolled fields are less busy than towered airports, try flying at an uncontrolled field on a nice Saturday after a long week or two of bad wx. Mix in regular, student, NORDO, and head-up-the-ass traffic and you have a much more complicated environment for situational awareness than even a busy controlled airport. In many ways I prefer a tower.
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Don't forget that CTAF's are shared widely.... I learned that one on a trip to an uncontrolled airport in CT. when I heard someone self anouncing for a field I knew was in NJ.... that was the WTF:hairraise: moment of the day....

It made me miss good ol' busy controlled FRG!

To the OP Student to student- keep at it- talk frequently on the radio...it comes with time...
 
Sorry. I dont always think through what I am posting.
I would abort the landing.

You are right. No way in hell I would do a 360 at 100 feet of the ground. I would execute a go around. misspoke.
 
On my first long xc country I completely botched my initial call up to approach. It was a class c (klft) and by time I was done stuttering through it other pilots were on the radio talking about it. In those 3 minutes I had forgotten everything I had learned. Anyway, I agree with the others. That made me a better pilot, as this will make you a better pilot. I have to admit though, when you said "10 minutes later, I'm still going downwind" I had to take a minute and finish laughing. I had a feeling that was coming. One xc I made I confused the time with the distance on my GPS. YEA, I was calling in insisting I was 17 miles out instead of 30.

thanks!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Remember this is a low hour student. The 360 was a bad idea and certainly a first step in a multi link chain that probably scared the hell out of him.

The key thing I see here is the OP has not yet realized that visually how far apart planes really are. Both in talking about the plane in the pattern with him and the plane ready to takeoff.

I struggled early on with "Is that guy really going to takeoff? I am on final. WTF" Now I know plane on the numbers easily get out of the way especially a jet when you are on 2 mile final. (adjust for wake turbulence though) now if you are on 1/4 mile final and it is a 172 on the go (probably wouldn't happen at a towered airport) I might do the 360.

I don't think you should quit but I think you should spend more time with a CFI especially at towered fields. I would hold of on solo flying a bit longer.
Everyone has these moments you just reacted to issues that were not really issues, sort of causing your own problem.

relax.
Click to expand...

Just to nit pick, there's no wake turbulence behind a jet taking off. There's only jet blast and if you're that close you have much bigger issues. The wake turbulence comes from flying aircraft only.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Sorry. I dont always think through what I am posting.
I would abort the landing.

You are right. No way in hell I would do a 360 at 100 feet of the ground. I would execute a go around. misspoke.
Click to expand...

I would have started S- turns about halfway down final until they started rolling. Once an idiot pulled out on the runway in front of me and I landed on the taxiway next to him. He never said a word on the radio and just flew out.

Different circumstances create different best solutions to the same basic issue, and things happen all the time that are not necessarily of your liking.
 
Captain said:
Just to nit pick, there's no wake turbulence behind a jet taking off. There's only jet blast and if you're that close you have much bigger issues. The wake turbulence comes from flying aircraft only.
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Yes there is.

As soon as he rotates, those wings are generating lift and wingtip vorticies.
That is why they tell you to land prior to his rotation point.

John and Martha would never lie to me. ;)
 
Piloting an airplane is not for everyone. There are washouts even in military flight schools, and they select from the finest.

Benjamin, I'd say "buy a boat." But that might be equally dangerous. <no smiley>
 
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