SoloEqs
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 786
- Display Name
Display name:
K W
Back in 1993, the FAA issued an AD on the Marvel-Schebler MA-3 SPA carb, because of poor design of the venturi.
The fix was to modify the carb, and most 150s got that mod, including the one I recently bought.
Then it turned out that the guys who had screwed up the design of the carb had screwed up the design of the FIX. Carbs with the new venturi were running rough and rich, because the new venturis didn't work well with the original fuel nozzle.
Thus, another fix was released, this time a replacement of the fuel nozzle, with one that has holes drilled into it to increase vaporization. Their bulletin said that they would send the kit, free, to anyone who reported the problem.
My plane was living at sea level at the time, and the problem didn't exhibit itself, so the owner didn't get the fix.
My plane is now at over 4600 MSL when it's parked in the hangar, and is showing this problem so much that I don't feel safe flying it until it's cured.
However, when I contacted Marvel-Schebler, I was told that the price of the fix was nearly $160! The fix consists of one brass nozzle and a couple of gaskets, about $10 worth of parts.
The company refuses to honor the earlier no-charge fix because it's been years since it was developed -- though the notice from the company detailing the problem and the fix didn't specify any time limit for them to make good on the fix for their botched venturi / nozzle combination.
I could agree with their position, if there were any use for the kit other than returning their product to a pre-AD level of safety. Since there isn't, the only question is when the fix is applied.
As I'm currently on a very tight budget, spending $160 for this fit simply isn't doable.
However, the FARs permit owners to make their own parts, within certain restrictions -- one of those being that you can't simply reverse-engineer an existing part, you have to get the data from the manufacturer.
I just got off the phone with Marvel-Schebler. Not only will they not budge on sending the kit, they also won't give out the "proprietary" information on the number and size of the holes in the nozzle (which would allow me to modify the existing part or machine a new one).
I will try to find one to look at, or check around for a junk MS carb that has the nozzle.
The 150 is the only production plane I own. I have a couple of experimentals, and am in the process of building several others (once my employment situation improves). I am also the "guru" for a number of folks around here who are building their first EABs.
I'm stuck with the Marvel-Schebler for the 150, but fortunately my other planes are set up with a Stromberg, an AeroInjector and a dual-Mikuni set. I will put AeroInjectors on the planes which are still under construction, when I have the money to resume building.
I'm also sending copies this information to all of the local builders that I've been helping, advising them not to buy MS carbs. Anyone who does is on their own, as far as their fuel systems -- not only will I not provide any support for Marvel-Schebler products, my experience indicates that the company won't provide much, either.
A carburetor has one purpose, to MIX FUEL AND AIR in the proper proportions.
The Marvel-Schebler MA-3 SPA used to do that, before they pushed an AD onto us (forcing owners to buy parts). NOW they demand an additional $160 so that it will once again do what it did before they "fixed" it.
This is unacceptable.
When a company is so unwilling to stand behind their product on a SAFETY OF FLIGHT issue -- especially one with is a result of THEIR OWN MISTAKE (in the failure to perform adequate testing of their venturi and fuel nozzle) -- I am not going to give them a penny, and will tell others about it, so they can decide for themselves.
Let's also not forget that a few years ago, they were telling us to buy their new, improved foam floats, and now demand that they be replaced with the new, improved epoxy floats. What's next, solid gold needle valve seats?
I've sent a copy of this bulletin to the guy at Marvel-Schebler, to give him the chance to make corrections or offer rebuttal. I will append pertinent portions of any response below.
===
9 AUG 2013
MARVEL-SCHEBLER'S RESPONSE:
Upon forwarding your email to our member managers, I have received the
following response:
" You are permitted to tell him that I said his childish behavior is a
disgrace to our aviation community. We assist too many global aviators on a daily basis to be bullied by this self professed "expert". He is free to
proceed in any manner he wishes but if he liables our fine company it will
not go unaddressed by our legal team."
Mark Keeney Jr.
Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC.
125 Piedmont Ave
Gibsonville NC 27249
Mark@MSACARBS.COM
(336)446-0002
(336)446-0007 Fax
1-855-MSACARB
(672-2272)
===
MY REPLY:
Upon reading your managers' response, I have this to offer:
1) The disgrace is for a company such as yours to force a mandatory change on owners which decreases flight safety, then to demand that we pay you even more in attempts to correct for your low standards of R&D and testing.
2) Your single-venturi / nozzle combination would not meet the testing standards for a Supplemental Type Certificate.
3) It's "libel," not "liable," and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the policies of your "fine company" in court -- especially if your legal team is of the same caliber as your customer support and engineering teams. Since you are unable to offer any actual counter to the points that I've raised, I would enjoy watching you try to prove that I've said anything
which is not true. In fact, I sent you the notice of what I'm writing so that you could make any corrections to what I've said. You have failed to find any corrections to make, instead falling back on the time-honored tradition of becoming angry and offensive when your flaws are made public.
You should stick to spark plugs and oil filters. Those are actually worth the money, and easily replaced if you screw those up, too.
===
So, the bottom line is that Marvel-Schebler has SELF-RIGHTEOUS honed to a fine art, but carb engineering . . .not so much . . .
MS is owned by Tempest, the people who make great spark plugs and great oil filters, but fortunately, neither of these products needs much in the way of customer support. I continue to endorse both of those products, which obviously weren't developed by anyone who had a fingerprint on their carbs.
The fix was to modify the carb, and most 150s got that mod, including the one I recently bought.
Then it turned out that the guys who had screwed up the design of the carb had screwed up the design of the FIX. Carbs with the new venturi were running rough and rich, because the new venturis didn't work well with the original fuel nozzle.
Thus, another fix was released, this time a replacement of the fuel nozzle, with one that has holes drilled into it to increase vaporization. Their bulletin said that they would send the kit, free, to anyone who reported the problem.
My plane was living at sea level at the time, and the problem didn't exhibit itself, so the owner didn't get the fix.
My plane is now at over 4600 MSL when it's parked in the hangar, and is showing this problem so much that I don't feel safe flying it until it's cured.
However, when I contacted Marvel-Schebler, I was told that the price of the fix was nearly $160! The fix consists of one brass nozzle and a couple of gaskets, about $10 worth of parts.
The company refuses to honor the earlier no-charge fix because it's been years since it was developed -- though the notice from the company detailing the problem and the fix didn't specify any time limit for them to make good on the fix for their botched venturi / nozzle combination.
I could agree with their position, if there were any use for the kit other than returning their product to a pre-AD level of safety. Since there isn't, the only question is when the fix is applied.
As I'm currently on a very tight budget, spending $160 for this fit simply isn't doable.
However, the FARs permit owners to make their own parts, within certain restrictions -- one of those being that you can't simply reverse-engineer an existing part, you have to get the data from the manufacturer.
I just got off the phone with Marvel-Schebler. Not only will they not budge on sending the kit, they also won't give out the "proprietary" information on the number and size of the holes in the nozzle (which would allow me to modify the existing part or machine a new one).
I will try to find one to look at, or check around for a junk MS carb that has the nozzle.
The 150 is the only production plane I own. I have a couple of experimentals, and am in the process of building several others (once my employment situation improves). I am also the "guru" for a number of folks around here who are building their first EABs.
I'm stuck with the Marvel-Schebler for the 150, but fortunately my other planes are set up with a Stromberg, an AeroInjector and a dual-Mikuni set. I will put AeroInjectors on the planes which are still under construction, when I have the money to resume building.
I'm also sending copies this information to all of the local builders that I've been helping, advising them not to buy MS carbs. Anyone who does is on their own, as far as their fuel systems -- not only will I not provide any support for Marvel-Schebler products, my experience indicates that the company won't provide much, either.
A carburetor has one purpose, to MIX FUEL AND AIR in the proper proportions.
The Marvel-Schebler MA-3 SPA used to do that, before they pushed an AD onto us (forcing owners to buy parts). NOW they demand an additional $160 so that it will once again do what it did before they "fixed" it.
This is unacceptable.
When a company is so unwilling to stand behind their product on a SAFETY OF FLIGHT issue -- especially one with is a result of THEIR OWN MISTAKE (in the failure to perform adequate testing of their venturi and fuel nozzle) -- I am not going to give them a penny, and will tell others about it, so they can decide for themselves.
Let's also not forget that a few years ago, they were telling us to buy their new, improved foam floats, and now demand that they be replaced with the new, improved epoxy floats. What's next, solid gold needle valve seats?
I've sent a copy of this bulletin to the guy at Marvel-Schebler, to give him the chance to make corrections or offer rebuttal. I will append pertinent portions of any response below.
===
9 AUG 2013
MARVEL-SCHEBLER'S RESPONSE:
Upon forwarding your email to our member managers, I have received the
following response:
" You are permitted to tell him that I said his childish behavior is a
disgrace to our aviation community. We assist too many global aviators on a daily basis to be bullied by this self professed "expert". He is free to
proceed in any manner he wishes but if he liables our fine company it will
not go unaddressed by our legal team."
Mark Keeney Jr.
Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC.
125 Piedmont Ave
Gibsonville NC 27249
Mark@MSACARBS.COM
(336)446-0002
(336)446-0007 Fax
1-855-MSACARB
(672-2272)
===
MY REPLY:
Upon reading your managers' response, I have this to offer:
1) The disgrace is for a company such as yours to force a mandatory change on owners which decreases flight safety, then to demand that we pay you even more in attempts to correct for your low standards of R&D and testing.
2) Your single-venturi / nozzle combination would not meet the testing standards for a Supplemental Type Certificate.
3) It's "libel," not "liable," and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the policies of your "fine company" in court -- especially if your legal team is of the same caliber as your customer support and engineering teams. Since you are unable to offer any actual counter to the points that I've raised, I would enjoy watching you try to prove that I've said anything
which is not true. In fact, I sent you the notice of what I'm writing so that you could make any corrections to what I've said. You have failed to find any corrections to make, instead falling back on the time-honored tradition of becoming angry and offensive when your flaws are made public.
You should stick to spark plugs and oil filters. Those are actually worth the money, and easily replaced if you screw those up, too.
===
So, the bottom line is that Marvel-Schebler has SELF-RIGHTEOUS honed to a fine art, but carb engineering . . .not so much . . .
MS is owned by Tempest, the people who make great spark plugs and great oil filters, but fortunately, neither of these products needs much in the way of customer support. I continue to endorse both of those products, which obviously weren't developed by anyone who had a fingerprint on their carbs.
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