Unanticipated ramp/handling fees

Ted DuPuis said:
I've heard that from another person as well. Then he bought an FBO and changed his tune. But this was an FBO at a Class C - fairly large facility.
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Make it up in volume. I can just imagine trying to run our business where every phone call resulted in a fee before I ever sold them any product. Hey, I have to pay for the phones and building, I should charge a fee to recoup some of those costs, right?
 
EdFred said:
Make it up in volume.
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How are you going to make it up in volume if you don't charge anything? Remember that one of the conditions was no fuel purchase. Many FBOs will waive the ramp fee for a minimum fuel purchase depending on size of aircraft.
 
Everskyward said:
How are you going to make it up in volume if you don't charge anything? Remember that one of the conditions was no fuel purchase. Many FBOs will waive the ramp fee for a minimum fuel purchase depending on size of aircraft.
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Badly worded. Have the absolute best service, and competitive fuel prices, minus the fees, and make it up volume (which if you do the service and competitive fuel you will) that way.
 
Dean V said:
The problem is the airport usually charges the FBO rent for the ramp, then add the cost for a line guy.
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I thought there was a requirement at federally funded airports to have access to your airplane without having to go through the FBO. Bad negotiating by the FBO. Pay the airport a % on services and flowage.
 
EdFred said:
Make it up in volume. I can just imagine trying to run our business where every phone call resulted in a fee before I ever sold them any product. Hey, I have to pay for the phones and building, I should charge a fee to recoup some of those costs, right?
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You also have a different business model. People don't fly to an airport just because the FBO is great, they're trying to get somewhere. So the FBO is secondary to the primary goal. So the best service in the world won't help if the fuel's 10 cents cheaper at the next airport, so the penny pinchers will just make the hop before leaving. After eating your free cookies. Our orders on charter were to do the ramp fee/fuel combination to make the lowest trip cost.
 
I've said this before, but in talking to FBO managers the sole reason for ramp fees is the corporate/charter operator. They have special fuel rates at certain airports so they like to fuel only at those places. They don't mind pulling up and dropping off ten people who go in the FBO use the bathrooms, eat the cookies, take the water, etc while the rampers chock the plane, bring the luggage cart, and rental cars. Then the people leave and the charter operator flies off, FBO doesn't even get a tip most of the time. Certain places this was happening MANY times a day, so they had no other choice but to institute a ramp fee.

I always try and purchase some fuel even if the prices are crazy, but there are times I just want to drop a passenger real quick and go. It's no surprise that the few ruined it for the rest.
 
Everskyward said:
What do you all think is reasonable in this hypothetical situation for these airplanes? Airplane does not buy fuel and sits on the ramp for two hours.

1. Single engine piston (Bonanza)
2. Twin engine piston (Cessna 340)
3. Twin engine turboprop (King Air 200)
3. Light jet (Premier)
4. Midsize jet (Hawker 800)
5. Large jet. (Gulfstream 550)
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$10
$25
$50
$50
$100
$250


EdFred said:
That may be the case, but I don't agree with the policy. If I ran an FBO, we would be fee-less just to sit on the ramp. Overnight incurs a fee. Emptying your blue liquid incurs a fee. But just to sit there, no. I wouldn't do it.
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EdFred said:
Badly worded. Have the absolute best service, and competitive fuel prices, minus the fees, and make it up volume (which if you do the service and competitive fuel you will) that way.
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The place I worked was like that. We didn't have tiedown fees for a long time and didn't have ramp fees for a couple years. But people ruined it for everyone. Like I said wanting 10 bags of ice, a crew car and 3 newspapers without any fuel purchase isn't an option. A lot of times these guys don't take fuel. They bought it from their preferred guy somewhere 3 hours ago and are only going 3 hours home when they carry 12 hours of fuel. You can have reasonable fees at managements discretion and the best service. But sometimes you just won't get volume. The DA, the number of passengers, the length of flight etc those are all out of your control.
 
For insurance reasons I had to fly 5 hours solo before carrying passengers in the Cardinal. On a nice day I flew to Scranton, PA (AVP) for this. Actually I was trying to go to Reading, but it was fogged in, and diverted to Scranton. When I pulled up to the FBO desiring to stretch my legs before heading back home the line guy presumably noting that I was solo in the plane asked me if I was "training". I gave a vague answer (technically, it was practice/training) and he said to tell the desk folks that I was training so there would be no fee! I bought a coke and stretched my legs.

I really appreciated the fact that I was not charged a high ramp fee to sit on the ramp for less than 30 minutes when my flight was basically an ad-hoc journey and not specifically to Scranton. I will also point out that normally I would top off the plane to bring some business to the FBO but in this case fuel was substantially more expensive than the norm. I would think the FBO might make out better if I bought 20 gallons of fuel than if I bought a Coke but it is hard to justify that when the fuel is $1 more than the average price.
 
Many of the busy FBOs in Class C, under B, in or near big cities don't want folks to just fly in and take ramp space. At my home FBO, Million Air, ramp space can be very short. They repositioned me once, two times before I could log time, do shut down check list stuff, put everything away and unload. They give excellent service, even wash my car sometimes if I leave it, but I purchase a lot of fuel. If folks could just fly in and park for free, I'm afraid it could interfered with their best customers that may be in a hurry and purchase a lot of fuel and use a lot of services.

I do agree, there should be someplace on a public airport where that's possible, but each FBO has a business plane and getting jets and turbines is on top of Million Air's list.

Best,

Dave
 
I guess my limited traveling has me going to cheap places. I paid a parking fee once at KPWT because the working on their new kiosk didn't make it clear that it was only for over night parking. I commented on this to a representative at the Northwest aviation convention in Puyallup in February and she clarified that it was overnight, only. Not an FBO, the airport.

No ramp fees when I went to TIW a couple times in 2011 for my IR ride. And I always buy fuel at the FBO at PUW when I go there, so the tie down doesn't cost me anything there. Based at OLM, so there's nothing there for the club to worry about, we already rent hangars and get a discount on 100LL from the FBO we use.

Guess I'm lucky.
 
When you get into something like a turbine, you generally want better facilities. Mine can take up to almost 400 gallons of fuel. To top it, you have to have a ladder to get the nacelles first. Jet A is really stinky. While self fuel can be done, it's a pain, takes time, and I don't carry my own ladder. If someone gets that one 'em and climbs back it, it ain't fun to sit near them (g). One may be flying in more challenging weather since the plane is more capable. Many small airports don't have a place for a KA to just pull up on the ramp and park. Not room or parking spaces at some little places I used to go. Can't move it around on the ground without a tug or a LOT of help. It changes where you plan to go to some degree. One leans toward towered airports to get clearances and to have someone there if something happens or maintenance is needed. Hard to do much of your own maintenance on these birds.

Best,

Dave
 
cirrusmx said:
we have it easy. An FBO/airport charges 60 bucks, just go to the next one. People really like to complain about paying 60 dollars when they are burning that amount of fuel in 15 minutes. I usually let the FBO to collect fees from me, if they dont say anything by the time i have my engine running i am out of there.
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I had one - Atlantic Aviation at KUES - where I'd talked to the line guy for a good 15 minutes and he never said anything about any fees, but then they called the tower, had ground control tell me to call in on Unicom, and told me over the radio that I needed to taxi back in, shut down, come inside and pay their fee.

No.
Freaking.
Way.

(They sent a bill to the club, BTW - Which we still didn't pay. And I won't be back.)
 
EdFred said:
That may be the case, but I don't agree with the policy. If I ran an FBO, we would be fee-less just to sit on the ramp. Overnight incurs a fee. Emptying your blue liquid incurs a fee. But just to sit there, no. I wouldn't do it.
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Ted DuPuis said:
I've heard that from another person as well. Then he bought an FBO and changed his tune. But this was an FBO at a Class C - fairly large facility.
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Ted, it can be done. And Ed, you'd like it if you haven't been there...

The FBO this makes me think of is Wisconsin Aviation at KMSN. Only FBO on the field, which is a busy class C GA-wise (Only about 1/3 the total traffic of MDW, but about 3/4 of the transient GA traffic), full service and friendly. And I know Dave's been there, I ran into him on the ramp last summer, a pleasant surprise!

On the door entering their terminal is a sign reading "No ramp fees. We prefer to earn your business." And while their fuel prices aren't stellar, they are at least reasonable, mid-range for the area (currently $5.79/gal for full service 100LL).

I'm sure that fueling the airliners (mostly RJ's, though Delta flies A320's and MD8x's in there too) helps them a lot, as does the maintenance and avionics shops, but... It can be done.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And I know Dave's been there, I ran into him on the ramp last summer, a pleasant surprise!

On the door entering their terminal is a sign reading "No ramp fees. We prefer to earn your business." And while their fuel prices aren't stellar, they are at least reasonable, mid-range for the area (currently $5.79/gal for full service 100LL).
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Yes, used them several times and they've been good to deal with. We have landed and not used services when we've gone to the restaurant nextdoor, but I generally try to purchase something when using services. We have filled there a couple times before trips and will do that again this year when we head off to Bahamas in August.

Best,

Dave
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ted, it can be done. And Ed, you'd like it if you haven't been there...
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I didn't say it wasn't doable, but my point is that it's a lot easier to be a Monday morning quarterback when you don't see the realities of airport operation and trying to keep doors open. Because of area variations, a "one size fits all" approach isn't always going to work. It's not uncommon for people to change their tune once the tables have turned, either.
 
They treated us very well when we flew the King Air to OSH. We bought fuel we didn't have to buy and probably paid a little more, but were happy to do it.

flyingcheesehead said:
Ted, it can be done. And Ed, you'd like it if you haven't been there...

The FBO this makes me think of is Wisconsin Aviation at KMSN. Only FBO on the field, which is a busy class C GA-wise (Only about 1/3 the total traffic of MDW, but about 3/4 of the transient GA traffic), full service and friendly. And I know Dave's been there, I ran into him on the ramp last summer, a pleasant surprise!

On the door entering their terminal is a sign reading "No ramp fees. We prefer to earn your business." And while their fuel prices aren't stellar, they are at least reasonable, mid-range for the area (currently $5.79/gal for full service 100LL).

I'm sure that fueling the airliners (mostly RJ's, though Delta flies A320's and MD8x's in there too) helps them a lot, as does the maintenance and avionics shops, but... It can be done.
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Dean V said:
The ramp you park on is maintained by somebody, ie repaved, snow cleared, markings maintained, unless you think the airplane fairy does that.
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Well, in his case he is the airplane fairy.
 
Dean V said:
The ramp you park on is maintained by somebody, ie repaved, snow cleared, markings maintained, unless you think the airplane fairy does that.
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Airport is paying for that, not the FBO. Guess what, at our airport (the one I'm based on, not the one I run) we have no fee to park overnight. Why? Because that was government money that paid for the pavement, and the fences, and the building, and the grass cutting, and the markings, and the plowing. It isn't the FBO that's paying for it. I already did, and so did you, and everyone else who pays taxes.

So again, how am I freeloading?
 
Unless it is a private field, an airport is usually owned by a county, city or state. In other words some government entity and they provide the blacktop, concrete, plowing, lighting etc. An FBO usually has a land use lease of some sort that allows them to have their business on said government property.
 
If you have them tie down your plane, you pee in their toilet, eat their cookies, leave crumbs on their lobby floor and then refuse to either buy fuel or pay their ramp fee you are freeloading.
To pull up on a goverment built ramp and drop off a pax is not freeloading.
 
Dean V said:
The ramp you park on is maintained by somebody, ie repaved, snow cleared, markings maintained, unless you think the airplane fairy does that.
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Yes it is. Frex, KSEE in San Diego is owned by the city. I pay plenty of taxes to the authority that owns and maintains that airport, and as part of my taxes, I expect to be able to park there for a limited amount of time to take care of my business. Just like every curb on almost every mixed residential and commercial street in the city. Of course, some curbs are metered, and there are high density areas where the city provides lots which are paid, but there should be some place where the coffers of the citizens who benefit from having an airport in their midst let my taxes take care of some ramp mx.
 
weilke said:
If you have them tie down your plane, you pee in their toilet, eat their cookies, leave crumbs on their lobby floor and then refuse to either buy fuel or pay their ramp fee you are freeloading.
To pull up on a goverment built ramp and drop off a pax is not freeloading.
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Agree 100%.

If I use their facility other than it just being the only door to get to my plane, I expect to pay something. But when they have a monopoly where I have to use their gate access because the rest of the facility is fenced in, no, I will not pay a fee.
 
Dean V said:
Why should the real customers pay more so you can free load? I don't like paying ramp fees any more than you do, but I don't think I should pay more for my fuel and repairs so you can skip through for free.
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That argument would make sense if you never went to another airport.
 
Dean V said:
I find it amazing that charging for parking on public strrets has been around for 75 years (meters) and some think they are entitled to free parking of their plane on a ramp rented by an FBO at an airport. Maybe airports should provide a public ramp with a $20 parking meter. If you don't pay, they issue a citation or tow your plane.
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I already paid for that ramp with the 19c/gallon (or thereabouts) excise tax on fuel.

We are not talking about some small private field where the operator paid for the paving, the runway everything. This is about public airports that decide to give a monopoly on ramp access to a private enterprise who then holds the pilots hostage for that access. Often, this is not paying for parking, this is paying $50 for stopping at the curb in front of the school to let your kids out.
 
EdFred said:
Airport is paying for that, not the FBO. Guess what, at our airport (the one I'm based on, not the one I run) we have no fee to park overnight. Why? Because that was government money that paid for the pavement, and the fences, and the building, and the grass cutting, and the markings, and the plowing. It isn't the FBO that's paying for it. I already did, and so did you, and everyone else who pays taxes.

So again, how am I freeloading?
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The Feds may have built the runway and fences with AIP funds (i.e. improvements, funded from fuel taxes and commercial passenger ticket taxes), but the costs for cutting the grass and plowing the runway (i.e. operational costs) are bourn though the local airport sponsor (i.e. city, county). The local municipality funds these costs through hangar rents, FBO leases, landing fees or fuel flowage fees. Whatever shortfalls there are are made up by the local community.

If the the FBO goes out of business because they aren't getting enough revenue, the city looses money, the local taxpayers have to makeup the difference, and local politicians call for closing the airport when budgets get tight.

Many localities charge nothing because they gamble on the economic benefit you bring to the community will outweigh a landing fee. If the county runs the FBO, they may charge no ramp or parking fees.

To summarize, you've already paid for the runway, but now you have to help keep the lights on...one way or the other. There's no such thing as a free lunch...or free parking.
 
I don't care what they charge, I think to a large extent that is their right. What I have a problem with is not having an easy way to find out ahead of time.
 
Dean V said:
I find it amazing that charging for parking on public strrets has been around for 75 years (meters) and some think they are entitled to free parking of their plane on a ramp rented by an FBO at an airport. Maybe airports should provide a public ramp with a $20 parking meter. If you don't pay, they issue a citation or tow your plane.
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Which is why I gave examples. If somone wants to visit San Diego and fly into Lindburgh field downtown where space is at a premium, they should expect to pay for that priveledge. If one wants to visit the city, and chooses to park in an outlying area and take public transport into town, they should be able to park for free, just as if I park my car up around North Park area and take a bus to town.

I haven't been to SEE for a while, but they used to encourage people to park in the free parking just south of 27L.

And not to make this political or anything, but one of the reasons we gave congress and by extension states the ability to tax is to avoid the problems of a fee based society which England struggled with. Sure it's a parody, but the toll collecting troll under the private bridge came from somewhere.
 
Brad Z said:
The Feds may have built the runway and fences with AIP funds (i.e. improvements, funded from fuel taxes and commercial passenger ticket taxes), but the costs for cutting the grass and plowing the runway (i.e. operational costs) are bourn though the local airport sponsor (i.e. city, county). The local municipality funds these costs through hangar rents, FBO leases, landing fees or fuel flowage fees. Whatever shortfalls there are are made up by the local community.

If the the FBO goes out of business because they aren't getting enough revenue, the city looses money, the local taxpayers have to makeup the difference, and local politicians call for closing the airport when budgets get tight.

Many localities charge nothing because they gamble on the economic benefit you bring to the community will outweigh a landing fee. If the county runs the FBO, they may charge no ramp or parking fees.

To summarize, you've already paid for the runway, but now you have to help keep the lights on...one way or the other. There's no such thing as a free lunch...or free parking.
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I am fine with paying a raeasonable landing fee to the airport to contribute to those expenses. What I dont want to be forced to pay is the marble in the signature lobby and the dividends paid to their stockholders.
 
dweyant said:
I don't care what they charge, I think to a large extent that is their right. What I have a problem with is not having an easy way to find out ahead of time.
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I agree, I usually call ahead and ask about fuel pricing, availability and any fees associated with my stop. I don't recall being surprised upon landing with fees I didn't expect. That being said, destination airports near beaches or resorts, and metro area airports generally are the most expensive in terms of fuel and most likely to charge ramp/handling fees. Podunk municipal with SS fuel and a snack machine aren't likely to charge, even for overnights. It's all a matter of location and costs. Our local FBO charges ramp fees as does the other FBO on the field, I am pretty sure I would throw up if I saw the amount the county charges them for rent! :yikes:
Personally, I try to buy fuel at every stop, even if it's a small amount, it's how they make their living.;)
But, I also try to avoid Signature and a few others when I can, but if you gotta be somewhere, you gotta be somewhere. :dunno:
 
The Garmin Pilot App does the fuel prices and applicable fees (ramp, landing, tie down, etc.), though not the amounts of those fees. In my experience, it's the bigger commercial FBOs that ding you the worst. These are usually the same that overcharge for their fuel, but then "waive" the fee if you top off.

I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for using services, but I don't plan on paying fees for touching rubber and making the mistake of cutting off the engine either. Careful of Smith Field in Beaufort, NC. They'll ding a Cherokee or Skyhawk for $20 just for taxiing to the ramp and then go up frm there.
 
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Dean V said:
I find it amazing that charging for parking on public strrets has been around for 75 years (meters) and some think they are entitled to free parking of their plane on a ramp rented by an FBO at an airport. Maybe airports should provide a public ramp with a $20 parking meter. If you don't pay, they issue a citation or tow your plane.
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If you are stopping for a little while I can agree with your argument. However, even in a downtown area with parking meters, there are usually spots were you can legally stop and quickly drop off a passenger and drive off without paying to park or getting a ticket. Briefly stopping on a government built ramp should be treated the same way.

Also the parking meters are well advertised. You don't have to worry about parking in an unmarked spot and then have someone run out as you try to leave and insist you have to pay them some undisclosed fee.

Unadvertised ramp fees border on entrapment.
 
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SbestCFII said:
The Garmin Pilot App does the fuel prices and applicable fees (ramp, landing, tie down, etc.), though not the amounts of those fees.
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Do you know where the Garmin app gets the fuel data? Is it from AirNav or AOPA?
 
jrollf said:
Also the parking meters are well advertised. You don't have to worry about parking in an unmarked spot and then have someone run out as you try to leave and insist you have to pay them some enclosed fee.
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Oh, you should come to DC then :rofl: .
 
who is guilty of trying to turn around as fast as possible before the fbo guy comes out running charging fees???;)



Also, I find it pretty annoying and dangerous when the ramp person gets to close to the running props. I always shutdown At least 30 feet away before comming close to a signaling lineguy.
 
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No ramp fees at KLNK (class C). You can park your plane on the ramp for months at no cost. We aren't short on ramp space though.
 
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