Inverted
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We get fees everywhere. If we can, we get the minimum ful to waive the fees and move on. Very rarely, will we stop somewhere that doesn't have some sort of fee.
Unanticipated ramp/handling fees
- Thread starter Dave Siciliano
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Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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I had the same problem - and I was on a Cloud Nine flight no less! $75 ramp fee, which is more than I pay at PHL. I said "What do you think you are? This isn't a real airport."
After a scathing AirNav comment, the manager refunded my fee and offered to buy me lunch.
Well, in a Lear that's expected. I don't mind a fee in the 310 so long as it's reasonable for where I'm going. At PHL they usually charge me $50 (which is the charge for a single, but the folks at the counter are nice), and I figure anywhere else should be less. Self serve fuel should mean no fees, and so I typically plan my stops for self serve fuel when feasible. Of course, you need to go where you need to go...
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Shouldn't there be some reasonable disclosure one can get in advance? Something posted in the FBO somewhere also? No fees on their web site and it wasn't in the FBO. As I said, a fella had to go to a desk drawer, flip through some things, ask me what type of plane and pronounce judgement on me. Should I have to call every FBO in advance and record with whom I speak and the amount discussed? Kinda defeats the purpose at times.
Shouldn't there be an alternative at a public airport to drop someone or pick them up without incurring the wrath of an FBO? Or worse, the only FBO?
Palm Springs was as real doozy last time I went in. The line guys guided you in and put chocks in before you shut down! I shut down the right and opened a window; they said I had to shut down to get fuel or go in and pay the ramp fee.
Best,
Dave
Shouldn't there be an alternative at a public airport to drop someone or pick them up without incurring the wrath of an FBO? Or worse, the only FBO?
Palm Springs was as real doozy last time I went in. The line guys guided you in and put chocks in before you shut down! I shut down the right and opened a window; they said I had to shut down to get fuel or go in and pay the ramp fee.
Best,
Dave
PilotAlan
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Then it's illegal to paint, right? If it's not on the TCDS, or STC'd, then its not allowed (at least that's what I've learned here).
dell30rb
Final Approach
I completely agree with you, maybe we should contact senator Inhofe.
Earlier I mentioned one local uncontrolled airport that I don't like had all of its old comments erased by airnav, who posted a note 'comments older than three months deleted at the request of the FBO'.
Well, here is what happens if you decide not to pay them. Apparently they stopped a running aircraft from departing by pulling a FUEL truck in front of it over an unpaid $85 fee.
http://www.wcti12.com/FBO-Owner-Iss...doff/-/13530288/13635852/-/jqm6g/-/index.html
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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I've been to Southern Air at MRH. Used to do regular dog flights out of there. Their prices are definitely high, and their service wasn't bad provided you didn't complain about the prices for their poor facilities.
Can't say I'm surprised about that story.
On the other hand, if the King Air pilot got told the fee, said "**** off" and then hopped in his plane, he's kinda inviting the response. I've argued with people over unreasonable fees, but ultimately if they are stubborn I pay up front and then get it refunded later.
Can't say I'm surprised about that story.
On the other hand, if the King Air pilot got told the fee, said "**** off" and then hopped in his plane, he's kinda inviting the response. I've argued with people over unreasonable fees, but ultimately if they are stubborn I pay up front and then get it refunded later.
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dell30rb
Final Approach
I got hit with $50 in fees for a three night stay in a 152. I can buy a tie down for an entire month at KRDU (busy class C) for $75
They would not waive one night as there is a 14 gallon minimum and the 152 only had room for 10 according to the fuel stick. I asked if they would cut me some slack and they said no. So I flew to KECG and gassed up
dell30rb
Final Approach
I assume you don't mean rolling out the fuel truck.
Maybe calling the police, or getting the N number and billing the owner - and putting it into collections if they do not pay.
Now they are requiring a credit card on file for any customers. I flew in late at night (FBO closed) and called the next day to let them know I had dropped the airplane off and that I would be back on sunday (during their hours of operation). They said a card was required for an overnight stay.
As a side note - No, they do not post their fees on their website, airnav or anywhere else I can find.
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Ted
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Transient fees are going to be higher than base customers, so that by itself isn't unheard of. Nevermind overnight costs for a heated hangar, etc. The problem with something like MRH is you get bad facilities, and they're just trying to gouge based on location.
I don't think the fuel truck was warranted. But to your suggestions, the police won't care (especially in several states over where the plane lands), and good luck getting collections to make any progress. It'll just get ignored. At the FBO in PA (which was a bad one, and finally ousted), they would make notes of the tail number and charge them the next time around.
If they had made the prices more reasonable for where they were, they'd probably find people more willing to pay and not have an issue. Just creates a bad situation all around. I can see both sides having been involved with both the FBO side and the operator side.
Savvy FBOs realize it is one thing to charge a guy getting out of his own aircraft and another to charge some corporate pilots using a company credit card. I have seen corporate pilots pay a big premium on fuel, plus substantially higher tiedown and start fees just because one FBO has cookies or faster WIFI, or a crew car that isn't a heap. The FBO makes more money with less hassling as long as they have the customer base to support such a progressive fee model. KEGE is a classic example they go out of their way to help owner pilots manage their costs.
Ted
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I'm sure that's because of people who've skipped on ramp fees.
There are also people who will complain about any ramp fee, no matter how low. There's probably an assumption that someone who doesn't complain about a $10 fee won't complain about a $50 fee.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
If I'm there overnight, charge me a parking fee. If I'm not, and I am only walking through your doors because you convinced the authority to make your facility the only way in or out, no way. If I **** and **** in your toilet, on the way in or out sure, $10 is fine.
Fees on charity flights **** me off though.
Everskyward
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Hopefully, because they sure hit the transients. We go to Eagle quite often. Last week when I was there we got a $600+ ramp fee and a $90+ overnight fee.
It would be nice if these fees were published but, for example, if you go onto the Vail Valley Jet Center (FBO for KEGE) web site there is no fee schedule to be found. They are based on aircraft type and size anyway so they ask you what it is and look at a sheet of paper to figure it out. That's pretty common.
Ted
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KROC was, I think, the only place that charged me a ramp fee as a non-profit. Although I do usually buy fuel.
Everyone ends up having their own definition of "reasonable" for fees. Most agree that $0 is reasonable, but anything above that varies. In an industry built heavily on transients, I don't think it's unreasonable to charge those transients to some level, but that level needs to make sense.
On the other end of the spectrum, I remember one charter where they refused to charge us a ramp fee even though we sat around all day, used their internet, and didn't take any fuel. Wouldn't have been out of line or bothersome to us if they charged for that service.
Everyone ends up having their own definition of "reasonable" for fees. Most agree that $0 is reasonable, but anything above that varies. In an industry built heavily on transients, I don't think it's unreasonable to charge those transients to some level, but that level needs to make sense.
On the other end of the spectrum, I remember one charter where they refused to charge us a ramp fee even though we sat around all day, used their internet, and didn't take any fuel. Wouldn't have been out of line or bothersome to us if they charged for that service.
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Everskyward
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True. I went to Duncan in Lincoln on the day of some football game. The ramp was filled with jets and they had food set up inside for the crews. When I asked what the fee was, the CSR said, "We don't believe in fees." They could have made a killing that day.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Which is probably due to the fees being above and beyond what is considered normal for the location/services. And/Or unfriendly personnel
Other FBOs don't have this issue (walking out on ramp fees). Either Southern Air is very particular about the ramp fees, or the amount of customers who walk out on the fees is above what they can reasonably write-off.
I flew in there on a Lear 45 and the pilot told me the total charges were going to be like $1900 plus fuel for an overnight inside stay with about a $3/gallon premium on the fuel versus KAPA. Somebody has to subsidize the coffee and cookies!
I have heard second hand that KASE pounds everyone.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Perhaps we should see if NBAA or AOPA will exert a little influence on FBO's to publish their fees.
I have no problem with the FBO's charging whatever they want, its a free market. I can go elsewhere if I don't like the fee. But if the fees are unpublished and I get hit with a big fee that is 2-3x the norm, I call shenanigans. That's sleazy.
Many pilots rail on Signature but at least they have a fee calculator.
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Ted
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The problem is a lot of people think any fee is unreasonable.
gkaiser
Pre-takeoff checklist
After seeing this post I was going to build a website called rampfees.com and do exactly what you said....however rampfees.com is already taken so I wonder if someone is already working on that project
I think everyone needs to realize that you're paying for a service. If you're there on an Angel Flight and you're dropping off and not needing anything I wouldn't charge you a ramp fee. But if you're there for six hours in the lobby, wanting your plane towed into the winds after they shifted, wanting 6 bags of ice and two newspapers but yet you don't take any fuel in your KA350 I'm going to charge you. I'm also going to charge you for the G5 sitting on the ramp for six days when you want your three cars taken out there, your eight bags of ice and a GPU. FBOs can't provide this stuff for free. It's a HUGE liability just to tow you to tiedown if you're little, so charging $5/night with fuel and 25 without is reasonable. I have seen people not bat an eye at $200+ fee, and people lose their cool over $7. $7!!!!!!!!!!
I got hit with a ramp fee because I only ended up buying like 8 gallons of fuel at KHND. That's fine, I knew I wasn't going to take much, it was hot and I didn't feel like slugging through the air at gross when I could just take it to the tabs. I think it was $20 or so. When I bought 20 gallons at KSNA they waived it though, which was cool.. except fuel was $7/gal. But hey, I knew that so I can't complain.
Everskyward
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What do you all think is reasonable in this hypothetical situation for these airplanes? Airplane does not buy fuel and sits on the ramp for two hours.
1. Single engine piston (Bonanza)
2. Twin engine piston (Cessna 340)
3. Twin engine turboprop (King Air 200)
3. Light jet (Premier)
4. Midsize jet (Hawker 800)
5. Large jet. (Gulfstream 550)
1. Single engine piston (Bonanza)
2. Twin engine piston (Cessna 340)
3. Twin engine turboprop (King Air 200)
3. Light jet (Premier)
4. Midsize jet (Hawker 800)
5. Large jet. (Gulfstream 550)
Jim Logajan
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Does it really matter if the fee schedule is not published or made easily available beforehand?
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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I think the point was to find the variability in what the group considers "reasonable."
Agreed. Who hasn't seen a sign in a restaurant (usually near a university) that says something like
"Two hour maximum and $25 per table minimum purchase enforced at management's discretion"
In this day and age there is no reason for an FBO not to have their fee schedule on their website. The best ones care enough to update their fuel and fees as often needed to keep them accurate.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
I think like any other service provider, there should be a reasonable manner in which fees can be determined in advance and it should be posted somewhere.
It's becoming prolific for folks to post rack rates and one has to call for each service and negotiate. Why? I don't have full time staff to negotiate a car rental, hotel, FBO fuel and fees. That all takes away from time I could be enjoying myself and spending money in their local economy. What was to be a fun trip, becomes a pain in the butt and one has to record names and rates for everything.
Scratching my head.
Best,
Dave
It's becoming prolific for folks to post rack rates and one has to call for each service and negotiate. Why? I don't have full time staff to negotiate a car rental, hotel, FBO fuel and fees. That all takes away from time I could be enjoying myself and spending money in their local economy. What was to be a fun trip, becomes a pain in the butt and one has to record names and rates for everything.
Scratching my head.
Best,
Dave
Jim Logajan
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Um - what is the very first word in the OP's subject line?
What was the upsetting aspect that the OP identified in the very first post to this thread? Do you see anywhere in it that the OP said the fee itself was unreasonable?
My own modest view is that discussion of what is "reasonable" is best settled by the market. But it is difficult for a market to operate when information is often withheld from one of the parties. As I see it, free markets need free speech to operate, so forums like this are appropriate places to publish experiences with FBOs.
Morph the thread to your own goals if you like - that is free speech too. Just keep in mind that your point was not the intent of the OP.
Everskyward
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I was looking for opinions about what the fees should be. I already stated that it would be nice if they were published somewhere but, unfortunately in most cases they are not. I agree with the poster who said that many dump on Signature but they at least publish their fees.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
What services are used/offered? If all they did was land, walk out to a taxi then return and leave then no more than 5-10 for any of them unless space is at a premium.
Tow the plane, offer free refreshments, a car then I don't think
1 $10
2 $20
3 $50
3 $50
4 $100
3 $300
Something like that, fudged up or down for local variations.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Do the occupants (deplaning or embarking) or pilots of the craft use any services? If no. $0 for all of them. If they park overnight. Charge them. A quick turn. No fee, regardless.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I have never seen a sign like that.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Most of the time in turbines and even in the P baron, a handler met me on the ramp, guided me in and I take up space. If I shut one down, let a passenger out, crank up and leave, obviously, minimum services were provided. But I usually shut both down and let the passenger out. They usually have bags the ramp guys assist with. I usually can't call ahead in the air single pilot because I'm talking to approach and pretty busy. Nice weather or a co-pilot, I do call the FBO 20 miles or so out.
So, when I come in, ramp guy or guys have to stop what they're doing and get me parked. Insurance usually requires them to ground handle me and guide me out.
Best,
Dave
So, when I come in, ramp guy or guys have to stop what they're doing and get me parked. Insurance usually requires them to ground handle me and guide me out.
Best,
Dave
Everskyward
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In my experience, if they are going to charge you a fee it is per day, whether you stay 30 minutes or 8 hours. The fee usually isn't dependent on the services you use unless it is something for which they charge extra such as a lav service or a GPU.
I went to Signature's website and calculated the various ramp fees at Signature KAPA for zero fuel purchase.
1. Single engine piston (Bonanza) - $31
2. Twin engine piston (Cessna 340) - $72
3. Twin engine turboprop (King Air 200) - $225
3. Light jet (Premier) - $170
4. Midsize jet (Hawker 800) - $225
5. Large jet. (Gulfstream 550) - $562
I was surprised that the Premier is less than the King Air 200 (I checked King Air 90 and it was $170). I was also surprised that the King Air 200 and the Hawker 800 were the same.
Either you are eating in better restaurants or don't have swarms of broke college students hanging around.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
That may be the case, but I don't agree with the policy. If I ran an FBO, we would be fee-less just to sit on the ramp. Overnight incurs a fee. Emptying your blue liquid incurs a fee. But just to sit there, no. I wouldn't do it.
Ted
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I've heard that from another person as well. Then he bought an FBO and changed his tune. But this was an FBO at a Class C - fairly large facility.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
And Ted, that is another good point, if I am an FBO at a class C my overhead is likely so high that I need to charge transients.
Ma and pa in the boonies should not
Ma and pa in the boonies should not
supernovae
Line Up and Wait
How common are these fees?