Cat needs a kidney; Now I'm the client

[weilke]

Ok I think people are taking this wrong... Of course I will put my pet down if and when it becomes necessary. BUT, no, I will not let anything stand in the way if I or the vet feels that whatever the problem is, is curable/fixable... If your dog say, gets hit by a car and doc says ok it'll be $2800 possibly more for the surgery, you're really just going to say ahh screw it, he/she had a few good years? Not me, that's all I'm saying. Also, if people only post on threads to create conflict, you better expect a little heat back!!

The question how much it costs should not be what guides this decision. The question should be is it fair to the dog, will he be able to do doggy things again. Dogs heal up amazingly quick after trauma and other surgery, if there is a good chance of recovery, I would gladly spend whatever is necessary in trauma and orthopedic care.

Transplant is a bit of a different issue. First of all, there is a 'donor cat' that didn't exactly sign up for this. If we believe that pets are more than things, we have to look at this under an ethics perspective. In human live-donor transplants, donor gets something out of it, usually the knowledge of having helped a loved one, relative or friend. What does the donor cat get out of it ? Even for the recipient cat: Preop time on dialysis, 2-3 weeks recovery from surgery, ongoing cyclosporine treatment with blood-draws, still a sizeable risk of death, risk of developing cancer from the immunosuppression etc. Have we ever asked the cat whether she wants to go through with this ?

Maybe I am just not a cat person.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Ok I think people are taking this wrong... Of course I will put my pet down if and when it becomes necessary. BUT, no, I will not let anything stand in the way if I or the vet feels that whatever the problem is, is curable/fixable... If your dog say, gets hit by a car and doc says ok it'll be $2800 possibly more for the surgery, you're really just going to say ahh screw it, he/she had a few good years? Not me, that's all I'm saying. Also, if people only post on threads to create conflict, you better expect a little heat back!!

I didn't mean any disrespect with my post. It's really none of my business anyway.

 

[Henning]

The question how much it costs should not be what guides this decision. The question should be is it fair to the dog, will he be able to do doggy things again. Dogs heal up amazingly quick after trauma and other surgery, if there is a good chance of recovery, I would gladly spend whatever is necessary in trauma and orthopedic care.

Transplant is a bit of a different issue. First of all, there is a 'donor cat' that didn't exactly sign up for this. If we believe that pets are more than things, we have to look at this under an ethics perspective. In human live-donor transplants, donor gets something out of it, usually the knowledge of having helped a loved one, relative or friend. What does the donor cat get out of it ? Even for the recipient cat: Preop time on dialysis, 2-3 weeks recovery from surgery, ongoing cyclosporine treatment with blood-draws, still a sizeable risk of death, risk of developing cancer from the immunosuppression etc. Have we ever asked the cat whether she wants to go through with this ?

Maybe I am just not a cat person.

I have dealt with a lot of animals in my life and I don't think they 'suffer' as we do, and I don't think pain effects them quite the same either. I don't mean it's not there, just not the scale, I think they have a better natural capacity for blocking. As for the donor cat, he comes out of a caged clinical situation and gets a loving home. Also remember, veterinary research leads to human benefit. We are all remarkably similar. I remember looking at a horse skeleton and seeing how similar it is to human. Even the hoof has 'fingers' in it.

 

[comanchepilot]

Actually, I would suggest to you for the most part we treat our pets better than we treat our sick and dying family members. If we only treated our sick and dying family members as well as we treated our pets there would be a lot less suffering in this world.

Such is the truth.

I know I came across as uncaring but its anything but. . . . the animal [dog/cat/lizard/squirrel/ferret whatever] is being alive with us caring for it - feeding it, exercising etc etc etc. Part of the role is to understand that we are caring for the animal and we are now responsible for its death because they live far longer than they ever would in the wild.

Part of that responsibility is understanding the reality for the animal. Should a very ill animal endure pain and discomfort along with endlessly being medicated, running the risk of illness and rejection, and many times being ill from immunosuppressive meds that we never notice - and they are feeling sick like we do - over and over again. Or dying a peaceful death in the arms of the human who has cared for us and whom we trust at some basic level. giving an animal pain - and while they may not understand the basic benefit of veterinary care they certainly can tell that the human they trusted is taking them someplace that gives them pain.

We need to stop looking at these things as humans and if we really care for an animal to see a life threatening and possibly ending medical event we need to use our superior intellect to view the events through the prism of the animals limited intellectual understanding and still rich emotional life.

 

[comanchepilot]

Lots of pet owners out there that couldn't scrape up 2800 bucks for their own care, nevermind a dog.

that is never a point - it is his money. If he has the resources, its his money and he can spend it anyway he wants. I would never tell someone how to live their life or debate the choices they make - its the essence of freedom.

 

[ProspectingCFI]

I didn't mean any disrespect with my post. It's really none of my business anyway.

Okie I didn't mean any disrespect to you either. Just engaging in the convo. And the "conflict" thing I mentioned had nothing to do with you either, bud. It just feels like there's some people on this forum that just go around looking to annoy or offend people. I don't get it.

 

[comanchepilot]

You can get medical insurance for your pets...

I would probably suspect that organ transplantation is not covered . . .

 

[Captain]

The question how much it costs should not be what guides this decision. The question should be is it fair to the dog, will he be able to do doggy things again. Dogs heal up amazingly quick after trauma and other surgery, if there is a good chance of recovery, I would gladly spend whatever is necessary in trauma and orthopedic care.

Transplant is a bit of a different issue. First of all, there is a 'donor cat' that didn't exactly sign up for this. If we believe that pets are more than things, we have to look at this under an ethics perspective. In human live-donor transplants, donor gets something out of it, usually the knowledge of having helped a loved one, relative or friend. What does the donor cat get out of it ? Even for the recipient cat: Preop time on dialysis, 2-3 weeks recovery from surgery, ongoing cyclosporine treatment with blood-draws, still a sizeable risk of death, risk of developing cancer from the immunosuppression etc. Have we ever asked the cat whether she wants to go through with this ?

Maybe I am just not a cat person.

So I should mortgage my house to save a dog???

Nope. Not doing it. It's a dog. There are plenty more of them and they all are cute and loving.

Antibiotics. That's it. I get a Thousand dollar estimate for some procedure and I say 'no'. We'll see how it goes. If the animal dies we deal with that. I can afford pets. I have two dogs. But I'm not spending thousands to save their lives. I'll put them down and get a new dog.

I've put dogs down before. My last dog, Bear, was put down. Vet wanted me to spend big money for specialists. I said screw that and we put him down. I stood there while the medication took hold and he died in my arms. I cried a bit.

After, the vet asked if he could autopsy him to see what was wrong. I said, "sure". Next visit for the new pet he told me Bear had stomach cancer and nothing would have saved him. Honestly, I wasn't moved. Either way the dog was a goner. He had a good life and I still miss him. But he was a dog.

For my child I'll sell everything and do anything to save. A dog? Not so much. Antibiotics...that's it. Pet health insurance? Pass. I don't insure the birds that show up at my bird feeder either. Or sea gulls that fly over my house.

 

[weilke]

So I should mortgage my house to save a dog???

Do whatever is comfortable for you. For some people, 5 or 10k to treat an injured dog is pocket lint. Still, doesn't change the imnho more important question: Is it the right thing for the dog, are you treating the dog or yourself.

 

[douglas393]

Also remember, veterinary research leads to human benefit. We are all remarkably similar. I remember looking at a horse skeleton and seeing how similar it is to human. Even the hoof has 'fingers' in it.

Veterinary research, and medical research using animals are two completely different entities and little if any of modern medicine is based on veterinary research. Unfortunately, the vast majority of research that utilizes animals never has any benefit for humans anyhow. There are numerous reasons for this including most importantly the biochemical and biophysical processes that occur in non human animals can be very different than what occurs in us, poor experimental design, and lack of economic feasibility. As for anatomical similarities between different species of animals, that is pretty much true, however because the vertebrae of a fish looks pretty similar to the vertebra of a human, it does not mean it functions or even responds in the same fashion. Anthropomorphizing in an emotional, structural, or biochemical fashion can unfortunately lead to bad conclusions.

 

[Captain]

Do whatever is comfortable for you. For some people, 5 or 10k to treat an injured dog is pocket lint. Still, doesn't change the imnho more important question: Is it the right thing for the dog, are you treating the dog or yourself.

My statement that you quoted was a response to the bold part in the quote of my post.

I have no problem with someone spending their money however they want. But don't then expect me to spend as much as you think is appropriate.

So, I think we agree. All and all...

 

[OkieFlyer]

Okie I didn't mean any disrespect to you either. Just engaging in the convo. And the "conflict" thing I mentioned had nothing to do with you either, bud. It just feels like there's some people on this forum that just go around looking to annoy or offend people. I don't get it.

I figured you weren't directing it at me, but as one of the "naysayers", I thought I'd clarify. The whole thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I actually kind of think along the lines of Captain, but that ain't the point. It's your cat, and your money, and it's not my place to say what to do. Even if I disagree, I do feel for you.


I hope it all turns out good for you and the puddy tat.

 

[ClimbnSink]

that is never a point - it is his money. If he has the resources, its his money and he can spend it anyway he wants. I would never tell someone how to live their life or debate the choices they make - its the essence of freedom.

I have no problem with the OP spending money on his pet, comment was directed at the idea that pet owners should be able to afford to care for their pets. Which I agree with, owners should be able to feed them and at least be able to spare a bullet.

 

[TMetzinger]

I hope things work out for Moose.

I don't care what people spend their money on - I'm sure there are folks out there who don't understand how I can spend money on flying or cars.

I do think the fact that we have the option of doing this kind of surgery on pets if we choose is a good thing. I like living in the first world.

 

[Brad Z]

I do think the fact that we have the option of doing this kind of surgery on pets if we choose is a good thing. I like living in the first world.

Well said.

I think many of the curmudgeons here also poo-poo animal rescue flights. Gawd forbid we spend a little money to find homes for dogs.

 

[douglas393]

Well said.

I think many of the curmudgeons here also poo-poo animal rescue flights. Gawd forbid we spend a little money to find homes for dogs.

I agree. Like I said before I am not sure(actually I am sure) I would not do this for my dogs, and I do love them, but I think that what John is doing is great. It says more about us when we criticize him and demean him for what was I am sure an emotionally draining decision, when all he was asking for was a little support.

 

[dell30rb]

You can get medical insurance for your pets...

$15/mo for my lab

he's four and the insurance has already paid out $300 for an abscessed tooth and stitches for the time he cut himself on an oyster in the chesapeake

the insurance covers about 60% of the cost for injuries or sicknesses
it will cover up to 5-6,000 for treatment of non terminal cancer

it does NOT cover a chronic, incurable condition or a breed specific known hereditary condition (hips in labs)

 

[JOhnH]

$15/mo for my lab

he's four and the insurance has already paid out $300 for an abscessed tooth and stitches for the time he cut himself on an oyster in the chesapeake

the insurance covers about 60% of the cost for injuries or sicknesses
it will cover up to 5-6,000 for treatment of non terminal cancer

it does NOT cover a chronic, incurable condition or a breed specific known hereditary condition (hips in labs)

That is a good basic Policy that I often recommend. For $8-15 per month you can get a policy that will help with most things you are likely to see. For a little more you can get a policy that will cover transplants and other major chronic problems. But none of them will cover pre-existing conditions.

 

[nddons]

Proud dad moment. Here's my daughter carrying Stanley. Stanley is one of the shelter dogs that get sent to the vet school, the students do spays and neuters (with supervision of course), and after staying with a foster family for a month or so, MSU CVM's "Homeward Bound" program ships these dogs in a school trailer up to no-kill shelters in NY, as you can see from the back of her t-shirt. She recently learned that Stanley got adopted out to a nice family!

 

[weilke]

I agree. Like I said before I am not sure(actually I am sure) I would not do this for my dogs, and I do love them, but I think that what John is doing is great. It says more about us when we criticize him and demean him for what was I am sure an emotionally draining decision, when all he was asking for was a little support.

I don't believe anyone was demeaning the OP. What I do find disheartening is that anyone who questions the wisdom of a particular veterinary treatment is automatically labelled a carmudgeon who kicks puppies and drowns squirrels for entertainment.
I dont have dogs, for the most part because I couldn't offer them the kind of structured life that would be fair to them. Doesn't mean I dont like them.

 

[douglas393]

I don't believe anyone was demeaning the OP. What I do find disheartening is that anyone who questions the wisdom of a particular veterinary treatment is automatically labelled a carmudgeon who kicks puppies and drowns squirrels for entertainment.
I dont have dogs, for the most part because I couldn't offer them the kind of structured life that would be fair to them. Doesn't mean I dont like them.

You are right. I think I was reading between the lines in some of the comments, and I apologize.

 

[ChrisK]

So I should mortgage my house to save a dog???

You ever post something and then say "Man, I maybe I should just let this one go."? =)

I once paid over $2500 to get $2.14 in change removed from my dog's stomach. Poor guy was dying of zinc poisoning (little known fact - pennies are made from zinc, which is toxic to dogs). I will admit that I felt horrible, and that probably had a lot to do with why I saved the little guy, but I'm also a dog lover, and I made enough money at the time to be able to afford the surgery.

I understand folks reasoning for not spending the money, and I understand why they do.

Best wishes for Moose!

 

[nddons]

You ever post something and then say "Man, I maybe I should just let this one go."? =)

I once paid over $2500 to get $2.14 in change removed from my dog's stomach. Poor guy was dying of zinc poisoning (little known fact - pennies are made from zinc, which is toxic to dogs). I will admit that I felt horrible, and that probably had a lot to do with why I saved the little guy, but I'm also a dog lover, and I made enough money at the time to be able to afford the surgery.

I understand folks reasoning for not spending the money, and I understand why they do.

Best wishes for Moose!

Did you tell them to keep the change? OK, someone had to ask that.

 

[JOhnH]

I'm thinking that felines are basically fungible. Get another cat.

And you think THAT is fair to the cat?

I'm not trying to be unkind

I'm not clear; was that supposed to be some kind of apology or a justification? I would certainly hate to be around when you ARE trying to be unkind.

, but these are animals. We steward their health and when their health fails our job is to know that and know what to do

Are you saying that you know better in this instance than we do? We counsel people every day regarding "quality of life" and when is the time to euthanize. It is true that many people prolong their pets lives for selfish reasons while the pet is suffering. We discourage that. We do the same for people that just want to take painful, sick or injured pet home to "die in peace". What they really mean is that they are too cheap to pay for humane euthanasia and would rather the animal suffer so they don't have to deal with the decision or the expense.

You are truly going to transplant a kidney in a cat - what does the cat know about the pain and discomfort, and the ongoing medication requirements and blood tests. Its just not fair to the animal.

And you are able to make that statement based on what?
Didn't you just finish saying that if a cat gets sick you should just kill it and get another cat. Do you think THAT is fair to the animal?
Moose is an 8 yr old, otherwise healthy cat with a great personality. Surgery and recovery is handled with great care and compassion. After a few weeks (if he survives) he will feel better than ever and can expect many more years of life. Would you have me take that away from him?

As for the donor cat; a technician at the University adopts homeless cats from a shelter. Cats that are not kittens have a much lower chance of adoption and are often put to sleep. These cats are screened for health and personality. They are adopted by the owner of the patient and are given a good home for life. Are you saying you would prefer these cats be put to sleep, or you are voicing opinions out of ignorance? Is a lethal injection more fair?

Now, its your money. Spend it how you want but my thoughts have zero to do what it costs.

Thank you for that much anyway.

 

[ebykowsky]

I'm amazed at how much resistance there is to this decision... if you have the means to save a pet, go for it. I'm certain many others wish they could have saved beloved pets but simply could not afford to. Best of luck with the procedure and keep us updated. I apologize on behalf of all those who offered such @$$**** comments in a hard time for you.

 

[ebykowsky]

You ever post something and then say "Man, I maybe I should just let this one go."? =)

I once paid over $2500 to get $2.14 in change removed from my dog's stomach. Poor guy was dying of zinc poisoning (little known fact - pennies are made from zinc, which is toxic to dogs). I will admit that I felt horrible, and that probably had a lot to do with why I saved the little guy, but I'm also a dog lover, and I made enough money at the time to be able to afford the surgery.

I understand folks reasoning for not spending the money, and I understand why they do.

Best wishes for Moose!

I hope that wasn't $2.14 in pennies!

 

[Sac Arrow]

Certainly, I hope for the best and it's too bad kitty cat is in that kind of predicament. It's always a tough decision on "when is enough enough." If I were in the same position, I'd probably spend hundreds, but I probably wouldn't spend thousands.

Either way, I hope things work out in the end.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Why dontcha donate one of your kidneys to the cat

I'm amazed at how much resistance there is to this decision... if you have the means to save a pet, go for it. I'm certain many others wish they could have saved beloved pets but simply could not afford to. Best of luck with the procedure and keep us updated. I apologize on behalf of all those who offered such @$$**** comments in a hard time for you.

 

[ebykowsky]

Why dontcha donate one of your kidneys to the cat

There's not much I care say to respond to that. You've just obviously never owned a pet or loved any pets you may have had. Or you're just a badass, stone cold no bull**** guy who owns pit bulls to kill stuff with.
The op is going through a tough time and you're doing nothing to help him out.

 

[Ghery]

John, you know my daughter's in vet school, so we absolutely admire your compassion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWI6slCgRLA&feature=player_embedded

My dad was a veterinarian and taught at UC Davis and WSU for his career. Your compassion doesn't surprise me, at all. And I'm glad to see it. He would have done anything for our pets and it was really tough when he had to put them to sleep when it was hopeless. Best of luck to Moose and you.

 

[flhrci]

I can understand why the OP is doing what he is doing with his cat.

These days we treat pets like family members. They are nearly human. I do not have a pet right now and wish I could. But I truly understand this and have no issues with it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you have to understand in this day and age, pets are truly family members.

David

 

[ChrisK]

I hope that wasn't $2.14 in pennies!

There were 4 pennies. 2 were zinc. He was a cocker spaniel.

 

[Alexb2000]

Antibiotics. That's it. I get a Thousand dollar estimate for some procedure and I say 'no'. We'll see how it goes. If the animal dies we deal with that.

That's exactly how I feel about some two legged "animals".

 

[ebykowsky]

There were 4 pennies. 2 were zinc. He was a cocker spaniel.

More like a copper spaniel!

Sorry; had to get that in.

 

[N801BH]

To the OP..

Hey John... how is the kitty doing today?

 

[JOhnH]

To the OP..

Hey John... how is the kitty doing today?

Thanks for asking Ben.
His Creatinine levels have come down a little bit. They tell us that is a good thing. As long as they are not increasing it means his body is fighting. They have cross-matched his blood with the donor and that looks great. Surgery is scheduled for this Friday, pending more tests of course.

I am trying to build a cat carrier with sound proofing so that we can bring him home in the 172. I haven't been able to find sound deadening headsets that will fit him, or that he would tolerate.

 

[Captain]

Out of curiosity, where do you find a 'donor cat'?

 

[Henning]

Thanks for asking Ben.
His Creatinine levels have come down a little bit. They tell us that is a good thing. As long as they are not increasing it means his body is fighting. They have cross-matched his blood with the donor and that looks great. Surgery is scheduled for this Friday, pending more tests of course.

I am trying to build a cat carrier with sound proofing so that we can bring him home in the 172. I haven't been able to find sound deadening headsets that will fit him, or that he would tolerate.

They'll be fine in a carrier in the back for a few hours, remember, you'll be returning with two kitties.

 

[JOhnH]

Out of curiosity, where do you find a 'donor cat'?

In this case, there is a vet tech at UGA that adopts healthy, good natured, young adult cats (that may otherwise be put to sleep) from a shelter. They are screened for personality and tested for health. Then, if they are used as a donor, the owners of the patient (in this case, ME) adopts the donor.

So instead of facing lethal injection at the shelter, the donor cat gets a good permanent home.

 

[Henning]

Out of curiosity, where do you find a 'donor cat'?

Likely strays picked up by animal control or ones dropped of at kill shelters. No shortage of "spare pets" in this world.