steingar
Taxi to Parking
And lets not forget that something like 90% of the wealth of American is concentrated into the hands of 5% of Americans, most of whom I'll bet are lilly white. Yeah, I believe the 20 to one number, I really do.
Aviation's Glass Ceiling-why more women don't fly
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jnmeade
Cleared for Takeoff
I don't believe that for a second. It is ALL about biology. Everything on this earth has an extremely powerful urge to procreate. All one has to observe to confirm it is all about biology is to watch young people enter puberty and to watch older people become infertile or less interested in sex and see how their entire world view changes. The culture and society part is the part that impedes the biology during the middle years when reproduction is a main drive in life. Males and females may or may not have different levels of reproductive urges but both are focused on reproduction. The few that are not are the subject of considerable societal debate right now, and a topic which is far from the scope of this discussion.
I agree to that... So let them do a survey on the 5% of the filthy rich whites and break out the 95% of the poor whites instead of using Black/ Hispanic versus White arguement...
Ps.... And to keep this on topic... Can anyone find a survey of income for woman versus men...
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redtail
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Hmmm..
If there was just a 7% gap in white households and black/ hispanic households then someone in not managing their finances properly..
7% is NOT a 20-1 ratio...
7% was in 1995 so you're right, it wasn't 20% during that year.
Again, I'm not here to argue or blame anyone. I'm simply looking at the entire picture to see why aviation is as it is. Some factors are individual and others are societal. To deny one is deny them all.
Agreed.......
I would like advance another theory...........
Most people can to relate to other successful people and try to follow in their footsteps... Aviation has had mostly white males as role models... All I can think of off the top of my head for black pilots is Morgan Freeman, and the one Redtail mentioned in the other thread... I am sure there is more but it is early.... Can you guys /gals share your thoughts...
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Fearless Tower
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I believe the idea was mentiond earlier.....there are definitely far fewer role models and mentors for womeone and minorities.
SJS?
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Fwiw in the FBO argument, I worked at one in a class D with airline service. Not the busiest airport ever but not super slow either especially in the summer. I could really care less what you fly. If you come in in a 172 ill treat you just like my G5 guy down the ramp. In fact you're probably nice and I'd rather help you with your 3 bags than his 25. But please don't complain with where you're parked. It doesn't always matter the size of your plane but the front row is always open for quick turns and air ambulance. If you we're a quick turn you'd be up front too.
By the way, I have no idea why the African American population isn't well represented in aviation. Maybe they don't realize that aviation is within their reach. Where some white men can introduce their other middle class friends to flying, if a middle class African American doesn't have a middle class pilot friend how would he know?
By the way, I have no idea why the African American population isn't well represented in aviation. Maybe they don't realize that aviation is within their reach. Where some white men can introduce their other middle class friends to flying, if a middle class African American doesn't have a middle class pilot friend how would he know?
DavidWhite
Final Approach
Shiny Jet Syndrome.
Jackson Hole is a class delta airport and we have pretty heavy GA jet traffic through here... The FBO owner is a pilot and flys prop stuff and his jet so he is sensative to the potential of a mishap. He goes to extremes to minimize damage to all planes as his top priority. They purposely keep the light stuff AWAY from the jets mainly to prevent jet blast from flipping over the light GA planes.... They treat ALL aviators the same, whether you show up in a Cub or a BBJ 757.. JHA is a pilot friendly FBO for sure...
...And , just my casual observation.. About 30% of all flight crew coming in here are female.. IMHO...
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Shiny Jet Syndrome....beware, it is very contagious (at least among males)
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,24/Itemid,85.html
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My father was a pilot at Pan Am, and he went through A310 training with at least one black pilot. Sure, my recollection from twenty-five years ago doesn't count for much, but I know there was at least one black pilot at Pan Am. I wonder what the percentage of non-white airline pilots is today.
Jackson Hole is a class delta airport and we have pretty heavy GA jet traffic through here... The FBO owner is a pilot and flys prop stuff and his jet so he is sensative to the potential of a mishap. He goes to extremes to minimize damage to all planes as his top priority. They purposely keep the light stuff AWAY from the jets mainly to prevent jet blast from flipping over the light GA planes.... They treat ALL aviators the same, whether you show up in a Cub or a BBJ 757.. JHA is a pilot friendly FBO for sure...
And , just my casual observation.. About 30% of all flight crew coming in here are female.. IMHO...
I was in Driggs a few years ago, thought it was a nice airport.
Aviatrix
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm not sure about that but I know that my boyfriend flies with more black captains than female ones, and he's only ever flown with one Hispanic captain.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Keep in mind the number of female captains is going to be lower simply based on how the whole seniority thing works. Because of the general timeframe since women have been making strides in the aviation world has been relatively short, it will take a while before they start getting into the left seat in greater numbers.
There are a ton of white males who have been keeping the right seat warm for over 15 years at many majors.
Alexb2000
En-Route
I wanted to add that we already have a long history of women making their mark in aviation, setting records, etc. all the way back to the 30's. It's not like we're breaking new ground here. I wonder what those women pioneers would say about a thread like this in 2013?
bflynn
Final Approach
Probable self-selection bias. You aren't in the "Oh, I could never fly an airplane" crowd. None of us are.
But I suspect 95% of the people in the US can't get past the mental block to consider that "Yes, They Can".
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LandSickness
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fri tale
I think we're making the same point. I just think it's less desire, by those that have the disposable income, to have such a dangerous hobby. Money's a stumbling block, true enough, but there are a lot of blacks with money who have no interest in learning to fly, especially now. As a career, it's not necessarily the financial windfall it once was.
Two of the three black pilots I know personally fly recreationally. One of them, after falling victim to layoffs twice, pursued his Series 6, 26 and 63 as a back up and now works as a Financial Advisor. To my knowledge, the other two, one an Engineer and one a Dentist, never even considered pursuing an aviation career and that had more to do with how the industry didn't measure up to their choices of careers.
Averages and medians don't mean much when it comes to a fringe hobby like aviation.
Around where I live we have plenty of black families with enough disposable income to fly if they wanted to. They just tend to spend their disposable income on boats or car collections. The black business owners who own planes mostly have them for transportation value, Meridian, Baron etc. Just not that many interested in shooting the breeze at the FBO saturday morning.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
The discussion isn't limited to aviation as a hobby.
redtail
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Redtail
I think there are some very good observations being made and I agree with most of them. That is why I said..."to deny one is to deny them all".
Yes there is a history of discrimination. Yes there is the financial gap between the races. Yes there is a general lack of interest in aviation among many blacks and women.
And yes, I'm personally unhappy with the results. The disproportionate number of women and minorities in aviation is nothing to be proud of. Not saying there should be an equal number, just more. This is my personal observation in 47 years.
Yes there is a history of discrimination. Yes there is the financial gap between the races. Yes there is a general lack of interest in aviation among many blacks and women.
And yes, I'm personally unhappy with the results. The disproportionate number of women and minorities in aviation is nothing to be proud of. Not saying there should be an equal number, just more. This is my personal observation in 47 years.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Something we should all be unhappy about, seeing as our avocation is likely to expire from attrition before I do.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I think he means the FBOs that have flight schools.
Everskyward
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I thought that kind of thinking went out of style in the 1960s and 70s. Do young people still do what "everyone else" thinks they should do?
Herd mentality. I would think that most people are joiners of some sort, ie people who join groups. Others, like me, definitely not joiners.
Everskyward
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That would go for me too. I generally get along with people but I am not that much of a joiner. Even when I do join a group, either formally or informally, I am a little bit of an outsider. It's never bothered me, though, maybe because I grew up that way. I also never felt I needed a role model, either male or female, and I'm a little uncomfortable being one.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Probably quite a bit to the herd mentality. Can't tell you how many people have told me they wanted to make a skydive but couldn't find anyone to go with them. Someone showing up to jump without friends is rare. Maybe the people that care about new pilots should try and recruit two or more friends at the same time.
I am always giving rides to people who express interest in flying. I give rides to all the local controllers and I get 2-3 calls a month from friends asking me to take someone they know up... I make it a point to have them bring their children and wives / husbands along.. I have found if you infect the whole family with the flying bug, the chances of them starting flight training goes up ALOT...
I am doing my part in perpetuating aviation..
bflynn
Final Approach
Yes - they do and they probably aren't even aware that they're doing it, let alone be able to question the ideas behind their thinking. Want proof? Go out to 10 young kids and ask them about small airplanes.
My own son had this reaction. He was 8 when I started flying. I remember one day I told him "I'm learning to fly" and he said "Oh I'm so sorry. No, you can't, you'll die". We had a long talk about it and I've taught him about a lot of things, but he just KNEW that airplanes were lethal, even though we've never talked about it. So everything that he did or knew about small airplanes was premised on the idea that they are deathtraps.
Where did that come from? I have no idea, but he learned it somehwere and it became part of his world view. He acted on it and lived it without ever questioning the knowledge. The young today...and the old today...do the same thing. They live on autopilot without ever questioning the expansion of their reality.
That one thing that I just described is probably the #1 culprit in the declining pilot population. You want more pilots - more women pilots, more black pilots - then you have to get them to question their own prejudice about airplanes.
Everskyward
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I wasn't talking about young kids. I was thinking more about older teens who get to that rebellious stage where they don't necessarily listen to their parents or other adults.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I got one buddy who has just started training. Another very interested and was about to write the initiation fee check to join our club. But he can't because he has ADD.
Aviatrix
Pre-takeoff checklist
Even if they don't do what everyone else does with flying if their parents think it's dangerous or unsafe they probably won't have the permission or money to do it. I'm in my 20s and taking lessons with my own money but I still had to fight my mom because she wasn't okay with it because "small planes are deathtraps" mentality. I hid it from her for awhile to make life easier.
Everskyward
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Out of curiosity and in keeping with the subject, do you think she would have the same reservations if you were male?
poadeleted21
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I'm male, mine does. She also wasn't fond of my motocross racing. Having close friends that died doing both doesn't help.
hindsight2020
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It's the peer validation y'all...
Women tend to be more gregarious than men in their social behavior. Thence their recreational pursuits are also in aggregate more social-validation-dependent than those of the aggregate man. GA flying is woefully uninteresting to the general population, therefore it stands to reason more men actively engage in the pursuit than women because more men are likely to pursue lone-wolf activities than women.
I just asked the wife on her take as to why she isn't interested in flying herself. She supports the assertion women desire gregarious validation in their pursuits. She's also friends with some of my female professional pilot peers. Their take is congruent with that difference in valuation i.e. they tend not to be able to connect with other women when it comes to flying because the answer to the organic question "who's coming with?" is not appealing to most. This really is at the core of the lack of interest. Now, that such dynamic (flying being a "lone-wolf" pursuit) chaps some women pilots says more about their innate female desire to be approved by the general female population than it says about aviation as a pursuit.
...But to have this analysis be spouted from a male mouth is blasphemy and condescending by default of course. To each their own. I'm happy and my wife is happy. All is well.
Women tend to be more gregarious than men in their social behavior. Thence their recreational pursuits are also in aggregate more social-validation-dependent than those of the aggregate man. GA flying is woefully uninteresting to the general population, therefore it stands to reason more men actively engage in the pursuit than women because more men are likely to pursue lone-wolf activities than women.
I just asked the wife on her take as to why she isn't interested in flying herself. She supports the assertion women desire gregarious validation in their pursuits. She's also friends with some of my female professional pilot peers. Their take is congruent with that difference in valuation i.e. they tend not to be able to connect with other women when it comes to flying because the answer to the organic question "who's coming with?" is not appealing to most. This really is at the core of the lack of interest. Now, that such dynamic (flying being a "lone-wolf" pursuit) chaps some women pilots says more about their innate female desire to be approved by the general female population than it says about aviation as a pursuit.
...But to have this analysis be spouted from a male mouth is blasphemy and condescending by default of course.
To each their own. I'm happy and my wife is happy. All is well.
Aviatrix
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think so. She is just scared of flying in the first place. She's one of those that needs some pills and alcohol to get through any flight.
My only comparison to know if she would have the same reservation if I was male is she is not happy about my brother going to Columbia for his spring break. She doesn't like any of her children doing anything in her mind is dangerous. Though through our childhood I wasn't allowed to do some things my brother was allowed to do because I was a girl.
Everskyward
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All I can say is good for you for doing what you want to do since it's your life. I'm a little surprised that people still differentiate between what boys and girls are allowed to do. I thought that was long past. If you are in your twenties I'm probably close to your mom's age.
HDunk
Filing Flight Plan
I disagree. In the Air Force AeroClub system even in the 70s we had 20-25% female student pilots. One of my students through CFII went on the be the Chief Flight Instructor at University of Oklahoma and then to the FAA as a rated controller. I think motivation and family support is the most important. The other areas and $$$$$ everybody that takes ratings faces problems.
Aviatrix
Pre-takeoff checklist
It is interesting especially for someone like my mom because she raised us as a single mom since I was 1 month old so you think she'd be all "girl power" or whatever. Also she has a high manager position in a big company, but her department is about 90% female.