Aviation's Glass Ceiling-why more women don't fly

[poadeleted21]

All I can say is good for you for doing what you want to do since it's your life. I'm a little surprised that people still differentiate between what boys and girls are allowed to do. I thought that was long past. If you are in your twenties I'm probably close to your mom's age.

I'm not really surprised that people still differentiate between what boys and girls can do, because there's a difference between what boys and girls can do. For instance, I'll probably give birth before you see a female NBA player.

 

[bluee]

All I can say is good for you for doing what you want to do since it's your life. I'm a little surprised that people still differentiate between what boys and girls are allowed to do. I thought that was long past. If you are in your twenties I'm probably close to your mom's age.

I'm a little surprised too. My seventy-five year old mother is one of my biggest supporters and encouragers in my flying and travels. I moved to another country when I was nineteen, and she thought that was a great adventure for me. So really, all parents are different.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

WOW. Just read into this thread and I am amazed at the retro thinking displayed by some here. I'm not an expert on affirmative action, and I have no formal psychological training. I do, however, have experience flying alongside women in conditions that would make a lot of the macho posers here diddle in their diapers. Maybe it was the type of environment in the CG, or the training, but if not for the pitch of the voice I never would have noticed I was flying with a woman as far as performance went. Sure, the women caught a load of crap when newly minted, and when breaking in at a new duty station, but no more than a male pilot.
My experience it totally lacking in the professional civilian arena, so I can't offer any insight to conditions there. But I can attest that given a chance and training women can fly in pretty spooky conditions, do it with precision, and repeat.
Listen to the video of the recovery of the HMS Bounty crew in Hurricane Sandy. The crew meshed as one and you can clearly hear the female voice of the PNF calling incoming waves and communicating with the on scene commander in the 130 overhead.

 

[bflynn]

It's the peer validation y'all...

Women tend to be more gregarious than men in their social behavior. Thence their recreational pursuits are also in aggregate more social-validation-dependent than those of the aggregate man.

Ok, but why.

Is it genetic and therefore nothing to be worried about, just the way it is?

Is it social, a need of the society that is unconsciously perpetuated?

Either way - I don't see any reason for concern over it.

I've had an idea rolling around in my head for a while. If had too much money, one of the things I'd do with it is open charity flying clubs for the disadvantaged, membership based on need. The planes would be available for really cheap prices for those in the club. The purpose isn't to teach them to fly, it's to teach them that they can. Once you know you can fly an airplane, how can you believe anything is impossible?

But it all starts with questioning what you think you already know.

 

[stearmann4]

Interestingly enough, I was just included on some very detailed discussion on women being allowed into Army special operations aviation.

After 23 years of active duty and never have actually served with a woman, I surprised myself in that I wasn't the loudest complainer. My official input was that provided our screening and training standards are compromised, I think women can, and should be allowed the privilege to serve in any and all capacities they choose and are qualified for.

I did mention that back in the 90s, we toyed with an experimental program to allow women in special operations and got the cream of the crop of female candidates. I'm sure they would've made great operators. We as male team mates failed them. Collectively we were either forced them to exceed the male standards and crated a hostile work environment, or we were unable to compartmentalize our male instincts and went to the other extreme and either coddled them or tried to in their favor.

I agree, in the majority of cases we are the problem, not the women. I have counseled several potential female aviators to use the opportunity to do the mission, do not use it as a grandstand for women's right.

Mike-

 

[Skylane81E]

I'm not really surprised that people still differentiate between what boys and girls can do, because there's a difference between what boys and girls can do. For instance, I'll probably give birth before you see a female NBA player.

Yeah, I won't go that far, but I do think that the biggest reason that more women don't fly is interest. It has been my experience that women are less likely to have the spark of insanity to go do something crazy like fly a plane, race a car etc. Not saying that they can't, just that the desire seems to pop up less frequently. My fiancé is the only female officer in her department for example.

 

[Becky]

We as male team mates failed them. Collectively we were either forced them to exceed the male standards and crated a hostile work environment, or we were unable to compartmentalize our male instincts and went to the other extreme and either coddled them or tried to in their favor. Mike-

You have articulated precisely why I've felt a vague disquiet ever since the recent announcement about putting women in combat. I was trying to look at that like a man might, but could not quite glimpse it.

A woman can be businesslike, competent and pleasant, and a man can see her as brittle, competitive and flirtatious. In any setting, aviation or otherwise, a competent woman will, it seems, always have to deal with a variety of bluster, silence, inconsistency, and other fidgety behaviors from (perhaps otherwise well-meaning) men who can't quite let her be good at something without feeling a threat to their masculinity or status. Other men perhaps simply are confused about how to act ... protective? Fatherly? Brotherly? And what if they do feel an attraction? We quickly enter murky behavioral waters ... not the kind of distractions one wants in flight or war.

Despite everyone's best effort to be "neutral" and accommodating, there is always something going on that absolutely has nothing to do with the business at hand when men and women interact. Most of the time we all keep it under control.

I agree with the poster who said GA is woefully uninteresting to the general public. Also, everybody who posted their Briggs-Myers type was a "T," so maybe Thinking types are more drawn to information-dense hobbies like flying. More males than females in the general population are "T's," according to Briggs-Myers.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

There is a super heroine called Capable Woman. When competing with or helping successfully solve the problems of men in the male dominated professions, it is her supreme quality to do so without fracturing the delicate male ego.

 

[Henning]

You have articulated precisely why I've felt a vague disquiet ever since the recent announcement about putting women in combat. I was trying to look at that like a man might, but could not quite glimpse it.

A woman can be businesslike, competent and pleasant, and a man can see her as brittle, competitive and flirtatious. In any setting, aviation or otherwise, a competent woman will, it seems, always have to deal with a variety of bluster, silence, inconsistency, and other fidgety behaviors from (perhaps otherwise well-meaning) men who can't quite let her be good at something without feeling a threat to their masculinity or status. Other men perhaps simply are confused about how to act ... protective? Fatherly? Brotherly? And what if they do feel an attraction? We quickly enter murky behavioral waters ... not the kind of distractions one wants in flight or war.

Despite everyone's best effort to be "neutral" and accommodating, there is always something going on that absolutely has nothing to do with the business at hand when men and women interact. Most of the time we all keep it under control.

I agree with the poster who said GA is woefully uninteresting to the general public. Also, everybody who posted their Briggs-Myers type was a "T," so maybe Thinking types are more drawn to information-dense hobbies like flying. More males than females in the general population are "T's," according to Briggs-Myers.

Thing is, you're more likely in my observation to have your throat cut by a female competitor. As long as you are competent, men will let you exist in 'their' workplace, women will throw you under the bus if your nail polish bothers them. You will just have to deal with the bluster, that is part of the male completion thing, it's not just towards women; it occurs between men as well.

 

[David Moeslein]

"Gulfstream Girl"

As far as women getting professional flying positions? "Gulfstream Girl" 250 total hrs and gets a right seat slot in a GII. Opportunities are out there.

This is one that really has me thinking. I am really trying to be objective. The fact remains that she did get not one, but two type ratings - a G-II/III and a G-IV. That's not easy BUT when you know no difference, all of us know that learning to fly is 99% procedures. In a place like ATP (where she got her AMEL an Commercial - and probably her CFIs) it's all about memorize, regurgitate on checkride day, and fly the checkride that you've learned. It's more of the same, but with even much more predicatability, going through a type course at a place like SimuFlite (where she did her type training).

See -> http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pro...ning-to-fly-all-about-priorities.html?start=6

Now . . . on to "how" it all happens and one really has to wonder. She obviously met somebody with influence and money --- and how hard would that be when you are fashion model with her looks? This is where it gets to be disgusting - not because of her achievements so early in her career but because of her flaunting them. This is actually a clear demonstration of where age & experience pay off. Yes, she may have the TRAINING, but at her young age and lack of experience - if something goes wrong in that Gulfstream, I sure hope the real CAPTAIN is ready to take over!

I also have to wonder what insurance company would insure her and what owner would be satisfied with her up front?

She may be very capable - but age and experience can't be increased simply by having a backer.

Again, I am trying to be objective on this one - so I would truly welcome all feedback (that is also objective).

 

[DeeG]

Re: "Gulfstream Girl"

Now . . . on to "how" it all happens and one really has to wonder. She obviously met somebody with influence and money --- and how hard would that be when you are fashion model with her looks? This is where it gets to be disgusting - not because of her achievements so early in her career but because of her flaunting them. This is actually a clear demonstration of where age & experience pay off. Yes, she may have the TRAINING, but at her young age and lack of experience - if something goes wrong in that Gulfstream, I sure hope the real CAPTAIN is ready to take over!I also have to wonder what insurance company would insure her and what owner would be satisfied with her up front?She may be very capable - but age and experience can't be increased simply by having a backer.

So what you're saying is that while she is capable of regurgitating procedures to pass a couple of checkrides, she's too young and too cute to handle an emergency?

You sound like one of those guys that were all PO'd at me when I got a job flying a KingAir... Because the ink was still wet on my mutli-comm-IFR ticket, I obviously slept with someone to get the seat. No, I got the seat because I was a better pilot than any of the guys that tried for it.

And who gives a rats that she's 'flaunting' her achievement? Good for her! I'm glad that she's doing what makes her happy. I'm jealous as hell, but, oh well.

Would you feel any different about it if she were 20 years older and ugly as sin when she got her ratings and the job? Or perhaps if she was a he?

 

[DeeG]

I wanted to add that we already have a long history of women making their mark in aviation, setting records, etc. all the way back to the 30's. It's not like we're breaking new ground here. I wonder what those women pioneers would say about a thread like this in 2013?

They'd roll their eyes and tell us to all put on our big girl panties and go fly the F-ing airplane.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Good for low time pretty girls getting highspeed flying jobs, they can help even out the glass cellar. David being a hot chick and bending reality must be nice, but it is a superpower with a very short shelf life. Gray hair makes men look like better pilots, by the time that girl has gray hair she will have been invisible to men, including those that make hiring decisions, for decades.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Would you feel any different about it if she were 20 years older and ugly as sin when she got her ratings and the job? Or perhaps if she was a he?

If GG was 20 years older and ugly as sin no one would know who the hell she is and we wouldn't be even discussing her.....and she wouldn't have the job or ratings.

 

[DeeG]

If GG was 20 years older and ugly as sin no one would know who the hell she is and we wouldn't be even discussing her.....and she wouldn't have the job or ratings.

No one would know who she was and no one would be discussing her BECAUSE she's not young and beautiful. And how do you know that there aren't 40 yo ugly women out there who weren't given the same opportunity that GG was?

I'm certainly not young and beautiful, but if some rich guy I knew wanted to help me get a type rating and fly his jet? I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

 

[EdFred]

No one would know who she was and no one would be discussing her BECAUSE she's not young and beautiful. And how do you know that there aren't 40 yo ugly women out there who weren't given the same opportunity that GG was?

I'm certainly not young and beautiful, but if some rich guy I knew wanted to help me get a type rating and fly his jet? I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

Because dirty old men don't want dirty old women sitting next to them at work. They get that at home already.

 

[DavidWhite]

If GG was 20 years older and ugly as sin no one would know who the hell she is and we wouldn't be even discussing her.....and she wouldn't have the job or ratings.

True Story

 

[Everskyward]

There are plenty of lower time guys who get chances to fly jets based on making connections. Isn't that why they tell young pilots to network, especially when it come to a corporate job? The only thing is that most of them don't brag about it so publicly on the internet.

 

[SCCutler]

There are plenty of lower time guys who get chances to fly jets based on making connections. Isn't that why they tell young pilots to network, especially when it come to a corporate job? The only thing is that most of them don't brag about it so publicly on the internet.

This.

Those glass walls break easy, folks, so be careful what rocks you throw.

Jobs through aggressive self-promotion are certainly not limited to women (of whatever age or appearance), or aviation.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Jobs through aggressive self-promotion are certainly not limited to women (of whatever age or appearance), or aviation.

That is true and I have no more respect for some dude who does that than I do for GG.

 

[John Baker]

Cool article in AOPA Flight Training magazine.

The article is titled, Aviation's Glass Ceiling. It discusses the issue of why there aren't more women pilots. I thought it was interesting in that it went beyond financial issues to understand the dearth of women going into flying.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2013/March/career_pilot.html

Here is an excerp.
The phenomenon of female disinterest in professional flying as a personal career track is the subject of a study commissioned by the Wolf Aviation Fund Teaching Women to Fly Research Project. Its report, based on extensive interviews, concludes there are 10 major barriers that women face:

1. Lack of money for general aviation flight training.

2. Instructor-student communication incompatibility.

3. Instructor interruptus, when instructors leave flight training to take airline or charter jobs, often requiring the student to start over with another instructor. This is time consuming, expensive, and discouraging to many female students.

4. Lack of female mentors and support systems.

5. Personal lack of confidence in their ability and a “fear of flying,” especially of stalling the airplane too early in the training process.

6. Lack of experience with and knowledge of mechanical systems.

7. Lack of map reading experience and orienteering skill sets.

8. Flight schools perceived as indifferent to female students.

9. Famous female pilots largely unknown as role models to non-aviator women.

10. Lack of emotional support from family and friends who perceive flying as “too dangerous.”

Most of these complaints would apply equally to men as well. Men have to overcome the same hurdles in order to get a ticket. Heck, I lost six CFIs during my training so they could move on to better aviation jobs.

Bob Hoover didn't seem to have any interest in my training, I never got one letter of encouragement from him.

So what is the OP or article suggesting? Should the standards be lowered to accommodate woman? Should the government subsidize womans flight training? Should all female pilots be required, by law, to send letters of encouragement to all female flight students?

Perhaps the solo flight should be eliminated for woman, since there would be no one there to hold their hand, thus making flying too dangerous for them?

-John

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm certainly not young and beautiful, but if some rich guy I knew wanted to help me get a type rating and fly his jet? I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

Me too!

 

[schmookeeg]

I thought "Box office" was hilarious.

I don't care if women want to fly planes, play professional basketball, or be meat shields in the infantry.

For every Gulfstream Girl, there are 1,000 "bro, here are my super deep and insightful blog posts as a 500-hour captain" sites from dudes.

 

[weilke]

For every Gulfstream Girl, there are 1,000 "bro, here are my super deep and insightful blog posts as a 500-hour captain" sites from dudes.

Some even right here on this site .

 

[weilke]

Re: "Gulfstream Girl"

What is interesting though is that our military puts people in that position with that much time. Still, in the competitive world of commercial aviation, there are far more qualified applicants that would've loved a right seat spot in a Gulfstream.

The FO job in corporate jets includes some component of flight-attendant and customer relations duties. A cheerful personality and good looks can be part of the 'qualifications'.

Many european airlines do ab-initio training and put someone in the right seat of an A320 with a commercial multi-engine.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Re: "Gulfstream Girl"

Yeah I was just joking about her. Only reason why GG is in the position she is now is because of looks. It surprises me that she flaunts it. She must realize that people familiar with qualifications and hiring practices, know really how she got the job. Can you imagine if the owner who gave her the job had a male applicant with 200 hrs TT apply for the job? He'd look at the guy and say what are you smoking to think you can get a right seat job in a Gulfstream!?

What is interesting though is that our military puts people in that position with that much time. Still, in the competitive world of commercial aviation, there are far more qualified applicants that would've loved a right seat spot in a Gulfstream.

She isn't flaunting it, she doesn't know, just talking about her life, people only notice because she is pretty. She won't understand how much opportunity was from looks until her looks are gone.

 

[weilke]

Re: "Gulfstream Girl"

I don't know of any pilot jobs that list "attractive female" as a hiring qualification.

As neither attractive nor female is a 'genuine occupational qualification', no employer in his right mind would write this into a job description.

I'd loved to have GG sitting next to me in a Gulfstream, but common sense and fairness would overrule that. I wouldn't with a clear conscious not hire some guy with say 800 hrs and twin engine freight time, over GG with a whopping 200 hrs in a couple years and no real world experience. GG didn't put in the "time" that so many of us did to get where we are now.

The old 'pay your dues' argument.