Aviation's Glass Ceiling-why more women don't fly

[ClimbnSink]

Ohh so morally and intellectually superior. How sexy.

Michele,

I have nothing to add to the conversation except to state that my "ignored user" list has increased by three!

Dammmm...that puts it at almost 30 now. It gets pretty hilarious when Stphen and Levy and Henning and Ben and Geico and Tom get into one of their pizzing contests. Sometimes I'll have 2 to 3 blank pages!

That's always a nice confirmation that the thread should've been on ignore to in the first place and there it goes...

...And life is good.

 

[ClimbnSink]

*sigh* unfortunately the nature of the beast. Pilots are usually "holier than thou" in whatever manner they can grasp at, I admit I am guilty of this too at times. I apologize to women out there, I hadn't realized how rampant sexism still is. I had assumed it had died out long ago, but I suppose that's because my generation is far more tolerant. It seems there are still plenty of people stuck in the past as evidence by this very thread.

Calling out stupidity is gender neutral.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Calling out stupidity is gender neutral.

Then I'm going to go ahead and call you out.

 

[aviatingfool]

Edit: To address the bitter men in this thread, remember they are saying more about themselves than they are about women.

Don't know who is bitter but I am certainly tired of watching what the whiny, whoa-is-me, it's-all-somebody-else's-fault attitude is doing to the fabric of a once great nation. If our parents felt that way we'd have never been great, we'd probably be speaking another language by now. And as the dependency generation grows and grows and the stories reported that make sense shrink to very few and far between (can't actually remember any lately...) I worry about that since, at least, it's real.
But then that attitude is coming straight from DC these days so I guess it's just over......

 

[N801BH]

Wait.......... You all mean they actually let GIRLS fly airplanes................. Oh the humanity...

 

[hindsight2020]

Kara Hultgreen was hardly a basket case and I would argue not a 'lousy stick'. The problem with Hultgreen was the Navy killed her....she had distinguished herself in A-6s and the Navy decided to 'accelerate her life' -THEY pushed her through at a lightening pace in order to make a female F-14 pilot. If she had male plumbing and been pushed through that kind o accelerated transition, that accident most likely still would have happened.


Your whole rant reeks of someone who has been burned by affirmative action. Yes, it is true, there have been many women that were put on the fast track in order to break through, and consequently when you do that, you get some less than qualified people in those positions.....that is the nature of Affirmative Action. But, those barriers were broken a long time ago and to continue to be bitter about crap that happened 20 years ago doesn't really help anyone.

Please forgive my written flair, but you misunderstood my position. I'm also not white, I'm a Hispanic male. An even shallower minority in my workplace, considering I'm the only hispanic pilot in my flying squadron, and this is 2013. I'm also Reserves, which means I spent the better part of my 20s applying and getting rejected at Guard/Reserve interviews over your archetypical white boy. I have nothing against affirmative action, though it certainly has done nothing to get me ahead in this life. I was simply pointing out that the lack of women in aviation is not due to lack of access. If a Hispanic son of civil servants with no aviation connections whatsoever can make it to the cockpit of a USAF aircraft, the archetypical well-to-do white girl can as well by mere virtue of wanting to..... THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO!

The thing is that I didn't aim for this job for social validation. It stands to reason the only motivation for wanting more females in the cockpit is a sense of social validation among female peers. Refer back to my previous post. That's a self-appointed product of their own choices, not a problem in itself.

There isn't a problem here. The only problem I have a bone to pick with is the female slackers that pull the mommy card like clock work when deployment comes around or anytime a full-up back-o-the-clock exercise comes around the corner. This sh$t is my livelihood, it isn't a hobby I can capriciously throttle up/down on-demand, at the expense of my peers, as my personal life circumstances dictate that particular month or year. It also does nothing for the reputation of the few women trying to hack it and genuinely vested into the job, their social validation not being a concern in contrast.

Don't misunderstand my written flair and entonation for a vendetta or bitterness. I'm simply being even-browed about it. I don't particularly care about the relative merits of TONE in this particular topic. I think the numbers are self-evident, as climbnsink and everskyward allude to. Now can't we all just get along

 

[Michele]

Ohh so morally and intellectually superior. How sexy.

Tim, that was for you...you can now add sexy to your list of fine qualities.

In the beginning the thread was so negative, I wanted to delete it. But, I'm glad I didn't (actually, i don't think i could anyway) because some good caring people have shown up that support the issue and the nasties just go to demonstrate that the issue seriously needs addressing. PB has a saner discussion of the same topic-it never went nasty.

 

[Tristar]

I was interested in aviation from a very early age. I had no aviation mentors until I was well into my teens. I have no cool story of a flight that would make my decision. I'm a woman that saw this career as something beautiful, a challenge, and the fact that I could travel to far off places to see and do things few people had. I wanted to be different. I think one of the things that deters many people is the cost vs income with the path to being and maintaining those pilot privileges and job opportunities. No, I don't make millions like many out there and yes student loans can be a huge deter but someone told me something when I started that I will never forget. "If you find something you love doing, you'll never have to work a day in your life." Yes I know thats a bit cliche but I still enjoy what I do. I love the wonderful pilots and support system I get to be a part of and the fact that every time someone walks in the door for a lesson it's not like college, they want to be there! My fellow pilots in the charter world want to be there whether it's a stepping stone or not. It's difficult at times, but it's worth it. Now, in my perspective, I think that women are challenged to not want to fly for different reasons. Its difficult to quantify why. I've talked with other non-pilot women about it. They think it's the coolest thing that I'm a pilot. Most of the responses I get as to why is either money or "it sounds scary!" Okay, I can fix the scary! So I do my best to talk through with them the scary parts. Some of it is due to media but some of it is also due to lack of knowledge. I'm not saying this is the root of all women. I ultimately think, to sum it up, that women many times find their passions in different places than men do. There's nothing wrong with it, that's just the way it is. What we can fix, however, is their misconceptions such as fear. I would love to have more women pilot friends! ...but the guys are great too

 

[Dan Thomas]

The ones I interact with in the military summarily throw their wings away the second mommy fever hits, not even blinking twice. For a position I personally worked for all my 20s in order to competitively get. To them? Meh, a nice 5 year adventure story to tell the kiddos in 20 years.

That's the story for most of the female students I knew. There was nothing holding them back from commercial flying except that sudden urge to get married and have kids, and they knew that a commercial job would make that very difficult and suddenly it wasn't important anyway.

It often happened when a nice young male aviation student appeared on the scene.

My experience with the female students was that they were skilled pilots, never mistreated the airplanes, and were disinclined to take silly chances as the guys sometimes were. The girls were good pilots. But that same aversion to risk also means that you don't often find them dirt-biking or snowmobiling into crazy places or doing other risky stuff nearly as often as men. Some of us guys are attracted to flying just because it gets the adrenalin going.

Dan

 

[Fearless Tower]

In the beginning the thread was so negative, I wanted to delete it. But, I'm glad I didn't (actually, i don't think i could anyway) because some good caring people have shown up that support the issue and the nasties just go to demonstrate that the issue seriously needs addressing. PB has a saner discussion of the same topic-it never went nasty.

Michele,

It is a good/worthy discussion, but as with anything relating to Affirmative Action, you are going to get some ugly and emotional responses, mostly from folks that lived though the periods where Affirmative Action led to less than fully competent people doing the job.

But (at least for aviation) most of that occured during the 80's through the mid-90s. Yes, there are still some holdouts where the glass ceiling is still in place, but they have become few and far between.

To cut through the emotion, most of the negative responses here on this thread did have some validity - the issues highlighted in the article are challenges for both sexes. Losing prospective pilots and the overall decline in pilot population is a problem across the board and it affects both men and women. I think the reality is simply that fewer women than men really have the desire to be pilots. But the advantage that women have these days (that they didn't 20-30 years ago) is that there are more and more people in aviation these days that don't have the sex hang ups than before. If you find a CFI that treats you better or worse because you are a female, you can (in most cases) easily find someone who will treat you with equality.

 

[timwinters]

Tim, that was for you...you can now add sexy to your list of fine qualities.

Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it since Greg's been on ignore for a long time. One of the first, if not THE first, IIRC.

Glad to know he thinks I'm sexy!

 

[bluee]

Please forgive my written flair, but you misunderstood my position. I'm also not white, I'm a Hispanic male. An even shallower minority in my workplace, considering I'm the only hispanic pilot in my flying squadron, and this is 2013. I'm also Reserves, which means I spent the better part of my 20s applying and getting rejected at Guard/Reserve interviews over your archetypical white boy. I have nothing against affirmative action, though it certainly has done nothing to get me ahead in this life. I was simply pointing out that the lack of women in aviation is not due to lack of access. If a Hispanic son of civil servants with no aviation connections whatsoever can make it to the cockpit of a USAF aircraft, the archetypical well-to-do white girl can as well by mere virtue of wanting to..... THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO!

Twenty-five years ago I wanted to fly in the Air Force like my father and my brother. I was told it was never going to happen. I don't know when that changed.

 

[Michele]

I was interested in aviation from a very early age. I had no aviation mentors until I was well into my teens. I have no cool story of a flight that would make my decision. I'm a woman that saw this career as something beautiful, a challenge, and the fact that I could travel to far off places to see and do things few people had. I wanted to be different. I think one of the things that deters many people is the cost vs income with the path to being and maintaining those pilot privileges and job opportunities. No, I don't make millions like many out there and yes student loans can be a huge deter but someone told me something when I started that I will never forget. "If you find something you love doing, you'll never have to work a day in your life." Yes I know thats a bit cliche but I still enjoy what I do. I love the wonderful pilots and support system I get to be a part of and the fact that every time someone walks in the door for a lesson it's not like college, they want to be there! My fellow pilots in the charter world want to be there whether it's a stepping stone or not. It's difficult at times, but it's worth it. Now, in my perspective, I think that women are challenged to not want to fly for different reasons. Its difficult to quantify why. I've talked with other non-pilot women about it. They think it's the coolest thing that I'm a pilot. Most of the responses I get as to why is either money or "it sounds scary!" Okay, I can fix the scary! So I do my best to talk through with them the scary parts. Some of it is due to media but some of it is also due to lack of knowledge. I'm not saying this is the root of all women. I ultimately think, to sum it up, that women many times find their passions in different places than men do. There's nothing wrong with it, that's just the way it is. What we can fix, however, is their misconceptions such as fear. I would love to have more women pilot friends! ...but the guys are great too

Great post Tristar, makes me want to live in NE. I am in total agreement with your post and have nothing to add except, well, you sound like a wonderful, knowledgeable instructor. That same AOPA Flight Training magazine has an article on fear, specifically Stall fears, and it really dissects that issue. Maybe there's a reason, a story about fear is in the March (Women in Aviation month) issue. Here's a link
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2013/March/feature-reduce-stall-fear.html

that same aversion to risk ...Some of us guys are attracted to flying just because it gets the adrenalin going.
Dan

Dan, it may be that people have different definitions for risk. I don't see climbing into my airplane as high risk because I have controlled so many factors; Mx, skill, etc. I see certain stupid pilot tricks as upping the risk ante, (buzzing, forgoing proper preflight, flying with lapsed proficiency, etc), and I'd rather not fly if circumstances mean I could wind up filling the pages of an NTSB report.

As for adrenalin, I believe that is half the fun. The adrenalin starts as soon as I begin flight planning, ramps up on the drive to the airport and holds in abeyance during taxi and run up. And then spills over in buckets as the machine races with gravity and that moment of lift off as the ship leaves the Earth is almost unbearable pleasure. Check listing the climb out is always done with the biggest widest grin. I am not unusual, women like adrenalin rushes.

 

[Michele]

Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it since Greg's been on ignore for a long time. One of the first, if not THE first, IIRC.

Glad to know he thinks I'm sexy!

OMGAWD, you've got me in freekin' STITCHES with your ignore list. I'll be giggling to myself over that the rest of the day. [Frank'll be bugging me, "What's so funny?"]

 

[Z06_Mir]

What? Accountability? Women pilots get held to a lower standard not a higher one. Ladies if you think your ride is hard, you should be scared of your skill level and what you don't know.

100% BS. Not complex. Not cultural. Women don't fly because they don't want to. The ones that do want to fly have it easier, not harder. Since every woman who wants to fly can, why do you need more women pilots? So you get more social value from the experience? Besides you'd be ****ed if a bunch of pretty, young women showed up at the airport and rendered you invisible.

OK, let's slow down a bit here. Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, and maybe you're just very shallow and live in the 1950's. I dont know (or particularly care) what ratings you hold, but if you'd like to go head to head with me feel free. I can assure you that the check rides I have taken were NOT easier, simplified or dumbed down in any way because I'm a female. I'm a pilot. The same as you and the same as the other half million pilots in this country. I'm confident in my abilities to fly, and if you're ever in the area I invite you to fly with me so that I can prove you wrong. I invite you to speak with the CFI's I've flown with and hear their opinions. I can assure you, I haven't had it easier in this journey. If anything I had it harder because of people like you I have more to prove. Where a man can fly "alright" I have to fly "really well" to be seen as an equal among people like you.

No, it's the "buckets" in the community that give the other women a bad name. Im sorry if it offends the feewings of the female peanut gallery up in here, but in my stint in the military there's one too many women for whom I've had to personally pick up the slack for under the auspices of female-centric motivations being utilized to scoff at the job. It's not even a function of ability, it's an outright lack of vesting and long term interest in the cotton-pickin job.

I've picked up LOTS of slack from my male counter parts in a male dominated industry. Can I start calling all men lazy and unprepared?

That's the story for most of the female students I knew. There was nothing holding them back from commercial flying except that sudden urge to get married and have kids, and they knew that a commercial job would make that very difficult and suddenly it wasn't important anyway.

It often happened when a nice young male aviation student appeared on the scene.

My experience with the female students was that they were skilled pilots, never mistreated the airplanes, and were disinclined to take silly chances as the guys sometimes were. The girls were good pilots. But that same aversion to risk also means that you don't often find them dirt-biking or snowmobiling into crazy places or doing other risky stuff nearly as often as men. Some of us guys are attracted to flying just because it gets the adrenalin going.

Dan

My mom flew before she had me, during he pregnancy and 15 or 16 years after. She wasn't the norm and I know that. However, I'm not the norm either. I fly because I love it. My boyfriend also flies and some day we'd like to have a family, but it won't stop me from ever flying. We were dating more than 2 years before either of us started flying (we did it together) so we knew where we were on that page. I would like to flight instruct some day (hopefully getting my CFI around July) because I want to share my love for aviation with others.

And you hit the nail on the head. I am a far more conservative pilot than my other half. I will fly in poor conditions if it happens (really windy at destination that wasn't expected.) but I still have my personal minimums as a brand new IR pilot. I think some times I bug him because I look at him and go "you know, the ceiling is ________" or "there's a possibility for some convective stuff in that..." We balance each other out I think

 

[Utah-Jay]

After over 40 years of flying, including going through Pensacola with the first batch of female Naval Aviators, I believe it's people like aviatingfool who are the largest part of the problem. Too many male pilots and instructors treat women with either condescension or derision, and that does not go unnoticed. Look at the Stick vs Yoke thread on PoA for more examples of stupid male chauvanism ("Real men fly with sticks" "The only reason yokes showed up was to enable women to fly in skirts"). So, it's us, not them.

Yeah, that is my thread, and I was not impressed how it got derailed

 

[Utah-Jay]

And, I would like my daughter to become a pilot, I gave her 1.5 hours of flight training for Christmas.

She loved it

 

[Greg Bockelman]

After over 40 years of flying, including going through Pensacola with the first batch of female Naval Aviators, I believe it's people like aviatingfool who are the largest part of the problem. Too many male pilots and instructors treat women with either condescension or derision, and that does not go unnoticed. Look at the Stick vs Yoke thread on PoA for more examples of stupid male chauvanism ("Real men fly with sticks" "The only reason yokes showed up was to enable women to fly in skirts"). So, it's us, not them.

Ron, that is probably one of the best posts you have ever made.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Twenty-five years ago I wanted to fly in the Air Force like my father and my brother. I was told it was never going to happen. I don't know when that changed.

Me, too. Air Force recruiter told me 42 (edit: 52) years ago that there were two jobs open for me in the Air Force. If I had a degree, I could be a nurse. Otherwise, I could be a clerk. I looked around at the women in the Air Force and realized it was true.

This month the administration decided to open more military jobs to women and there was a furor on this board over that as well. Let's agree that opportunities for women are still not on an equal footing with men. I don't know how many pilots come from the military percentage-wise, but I do know that that avenue of entry was shut at one time and is being opened a little more now.

If women just don't want to be pilots as some have claimed, then finding out why women don't want to be pilots is not whining. It is curiosity or it is fact-finding. I personally spent 50 years in the knowledge that women don't fly and I was ok with that. Once I found out that women do fly, I did it. No problem.

I, too, noticed that nearly all of the reasons listed in the article apply to men and women alike. Not a shock really. The biggest difference that I see in the list is the lack of women mentors and role models. So, is it that women don't fly because women don't fly? sigh.

All I can do as a pilot is to let others know that women do fly. And that it is fun for women to fly. And that women can have a good career flying. The same is true for men as well.

 

[murphey]

And, I would like my daughter to become a pilot, I gave her 1.5 hours of flight training for Christmas.

She loved it

I was asked by one of the charter schools in the Denver area to put together an Intro to Aviation for the afterschool program. So far we've taught Av101 twice, Av201 once, will start Av201 for the second round in a couple weeks and are putting together the plan for Av301. Because there's only two of us, we're desperate to find 2-3 more people so we can keep the program going all the time. The plan is a series of 6 week (once a week afterschool) going year-round from 6-12 grade.

This current Av101 has 25 enrolled (the max) with 3 girls but they are really interested and really serious about it. The Av201 has 9 with 2 girls. So the serious ones are staying involved. Our goal is to sign them off for the FAA written by the end of 10th grade.

This is how to grow aviation & GA in particular - get them young and corrupt them!

 

[poadeleted21]

Why isn't there a push to have more female A&P/IAs? I don't think I've ever met one. I did meet a lady who was an avionics tech in the military, that's about as close as I've come.

 

[wickedsprint]

Kind of like golf, or shooting sports.

Those too. Most women I've taught to shoot picked it up pretty quickly.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Why isn't there a push to have more female A&P/IAs? I don't think I've ever met one. I did meet a lady who was an avionics tech in the military, that's about as close as I've come.

I know one. I wouldn't let her touch my airplane though.

 

[Michele]

Me, too. Air Force recruiter told me 42 years ago that there were two jobs open for me in the Air Force. If I had a degree, I could be a nurse. Otherwise, I could be a clerk. I looked around at the women in the Air Force and realized it was true.

This month the administration decided to open more military jobs to women and there was a furor on this board over that as well. Let's agree that opportunities for women are still not on an equal footing with men. I don't know how many pilots come from the military percentage-wise, but I do know that that avenue of entry was shut at one time and is being opened a little more now.

If women just don't want to be pilots as some have claimed, then finding out why women don't want to be pilots is not whining. It is curiosity or it is fact-finding. I personally spent 50 years in the knowledge that women don't fly and I was ok with that. Once I found out that women do fly, I did it. No problem.

I, too, noticed that nearly all of the reasons listed in the article apply to men and women alike. Not a shock really. The biggest difference that I see in the list is the lack of women mentors and role models. So, is it that women don't fly because women don't fly? sigh.

All I can do as a pilot is to let others know that women do fly. And that it is fun for women to fly. And that women can have a good career flying. The same is true for men as well.

Peggy, as always, you hit the nail on the proverbial head! You Rock

 

[DavidWhite]

So that's how you must feel when some hot young studs show up at the airport.

I don't fly out of his airport.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Twenty-five years ago I wanted to fly in the Air Force like my father and my brother. I was told it was never going to happen. I don't know when that changed.

25 years ago that was the general word....and some women managed to push through who didn't want to take No for an answer. It was probably around 15-20 years ago that it was a viable option for women in the military.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If women just don't want to be pilots as some have claimed, then finding out why women don't want to be pilots is not whining.

Totally agree and perhaps that would be a more useful study than how the article approached it.

 

[Jim Logajan]

This is an interesting subject - so long as a person is able to study and discuss it dispassionately.

Piloting (but not aviation per se, since that encompasses a lot more than piloting) is just one of many fields in which the male/female ratio lies far from the ratio of the population of approximately 50%. Consider some examples:

• Science doctorates: ~30% women [1]
• Engineering doctorates: ~9% women [1]
• Secretaries and administrative assistants: ~97% women [2]
• Nurses: ~92% women [2]
• Cashiers: ~76% women [2]
• Car mechanic: ~0% women [3]
• Parks and gardens worker: ~1% women [3]
• Manager, small restaurant: ~45% women [3] {One of several where the ratio is closer to ~50%}

Likely theories I've seen for these ratios include (or some combination of these):

• Physiological differences. Such as statistical differences in upper body strength, or hormonal differences affecting behavior.
• Evolutionary pressure. Seems reasonable to assume that death of young women has a greater impact on group survival than death of men. Such pressure seems to favor behavioral aspects that protect pregnant and nursing females that put other members at greater risk.
• Cultural inertia. Both men and women are not attracted to fields already dominated by the other gender. So even when cultural barriers are removed studies seem to show subconscious inclination toward groups having members of our own sex.[1] A sort of Catch-22 that suggests it might take generations for ratios to equalize.

The above theories are just my ad hoc compilation so I don't expect their categorization and explanations to stand up to scrutiny.

[1] http://www.livescience.com/1927-men-dominate-math-science-fields.html
[2] http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/challengeswomenface/a/jobswomendom.htm
[3] http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas...aties/artikelen/archief/2005/2005-1825-wm.htm

 

[jonnyjetprop]

I did my part. I've taken all three of my children flying. My stepdaughter wasn't interested. I even offered her lessions. My older son says that he's interested as a hobby, but not professionally and my third son is unable medically to fly.

 

[write-stuff]

Based on student gender ratios, I don't think there is any "glass ceiling" in aviation anymore. I believe it's a pasttime that is just inherently more attractive to males. Women can certainly equal men in flight skills. I just think a relatively small number are interested.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Is there a problem with those percentages? More women are getting college degrees these days by a long shot, all those things are open to women if they want it. Should we reduce the number of women undergraduates to even the numbers? 93% of workplace fatalities happen to men, do we need to even that number out? This is all stupid, women can do whatever they want, claiming victim status is laughable.

This is an interesting subject - so long as a person is able to study and discuss it dispassionately.

Piloting (but not aviation per se, since that encompasses a lot more than piloting) is just one of many fields in which the male/female ratio lies far from the ratio of the population of approximately 50%. Consider some examples:

• Science doctorates: ~30% women [1]
• Engineering doctorates: ~9% women [1]
• Secretaries and administrative assistants: ~97% women [2]
• Nurses: ~92% women [2]
• Cashiers: ~76% women [2]
• Car mechanic: ~0% women [3]
• Parks and gardens worker: ~1% women [3]
• Manager, small restaurant: ~45% women [3] {One of several where the ratio is closer to ~50%}

Likely theories I've seen for these ratios include (or some combination of these):

• Physiological differences. Such as statistical differences in upper body strength, or hormonal differences affecting behavior.
• Evolutionary pressure. Seems reasonable to assume that death of young women has a greater impact on group survival than death of men. Such pressure seems to favor behavioral aspects that protect pregnant and nursing females that put other members at greater risk.
• Cultural inertia. Both men and women are not attracted to fields already dominated by the other gender. So even when cultural barriers are removed studies seem to show subconscious inclination toward groups having members of our own sex.[1] A sort of Catch-22 that suggests it might take generations for ratios to equalize.

The above theories are just my ad hoc compilation so I don't expect their categorization and explanations to stand up to scrutiny.

[1] http://www.livescience.com/1927-men-dominate-math-science-fields.html
[2] http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/challengeswomenface/a/jobswomendom.htm
[3] http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas...aties/artikelen/archief/2005/2005-1825-wm.htm

 

[Diana]

A lot of women don't have the desire to fly, and that's okay. Why do we feel the need to make them want to fly if they aren't interested?

After over 40 years of flying, including going through Pensacola with the first batch of female Naval Aviators, I believe it's people like aviatingfool who are the largest part of the problem. Too many male pilots and instructors treat women with either condescension or derision, and that does not go unnoticed. Look at the Stick vs Yoke thread on PoA for more examples of stupid male chauvanism ("Real men fly with sticks" "The only reason yokes showed up was to enable women to fly in skirts"). So, it's us, not them.

Ron, that is probably one of the best posts you have ever made.

I was pleasantly surprised.

The problem is that I'd love to have more women friends in the field--it's lonely being the only woman, or one of two or three, in groups of hundreds of pilots.

I don't feel lonely surrounded by hundreds of men...but that's just me. Most male pilots are enjoyable and interesting to be around.

I was the only female competing at the aerobatic contest I flew in.

Bit of advice here. If you are female that is going to happen a lot. Have a sense of humor. Get over it. I've often been mistaken for a concierge, flight attendant, flight nurse or another passenger. You're going to be somewhat of a novelty so so need to accept it.

Very good advice, Mari. Keeping a sense of humor helps a lot. Having a chip on one's shoulder can only make things worse.

I don't know what we should do about the problem of so few female pilots. I'm not even sure it is a problem.

I'm not so sure it is a problem either.

Edit: To address the bitter men in this thread, remember they are saying more about themselves than they are about women.

So true.

PB has a saner discussion of the same topic-it never went nasty.

It's still a possibility, given the history of some of the men who post there.

 

[Velocity173]

Anyone who believes women don't have the same opportunities in aviation as men has been living under a rock for the past 30 yrs. those days are long gone. The first woman Army Aviator (Sally Murphy) joined way back in the 1970s. First shuttle commander Eileen Collins started in the Air Force in the 70s as well. If you're a women who was applying for flight school during or after these times, well then you have no one to blame but yourself. They did it.

I've instructed both men and women in the Army and I can tell you the women are treated exactly the way the males were. The aircraft doesn't care about gender. It will kill an incompetent female pilot just as easy as an incompetent male pilot. The women have been have been allowed in combat airframes such as the AH-64 and OH-58 for almost 20 yrs now. Nothing special about a woman flying an attack aircraft. There aren't as many of them as men but it's not because of opportunity or sexism. They just simply chose other avenues. Just like these knew controversial combat roles. I could care less if they're open to women. The thing is, you can bet women aren't exactly knocking down the doors to want to become SEALS. So go ahead and offer it to them, very few will qualify and the ones that do, well they deserve to be there.

As far as women getting professional flying positions? "Gulfstream Girl" 250 total hrs and gets a right seat slot in a GII. Opportunities are out there.

 

[Fearless Tower]

As far as women getting professional flying positions? "Gulfstream Girl" 250 total hrs and gets a right seat slot in a GII. Opportunities are out there.

Man, why did you have to bring up that yoke-pumpin' GG? She is probably not the best poster child of equality.



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[DavidWhite]

Man, why did you have to bring up that yoke-pumpin' GG? She is probably not the best poster child of equality.



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Nope. That just flat out ****es me off.

For whatever reason when I show potential employers my boobs I don't get the job.

 

[DavidWhite]

Actually I regret that previous post. Maybe she was good friends with someone who needed a second pilot - I've got a gig flying right seat in a Citation courtesy of Wayne Bower of this very board (with 640TT) So I may have rushed to judgement. Still - 250TT is not much (but neither is 640)

 

[Aviatrix]

Maybe she was good friends with someone who needed a second pilot

Her pilot mentored worked for the company and they were looking for another pilot. He offered her the job if she could pass the type rating. She did so she got the job.

 

[DavidWhite]

It's still a possibility, given the history of some of the men who post there.

Kim recently did a lot of house cleaning.

 

[DavidWhite]

Her pilot mentored worked for the company and they were looking for another pilot. He offered her the job if she could pass the type rating. She did so she got the job.

Who payed for the type rating?

edit - Also, welcome to PoA!

 

[Aviatrix]

Who payed for the type rating?

edit - Also, welcome to PoA!

I'm not sure, learned it from this article: http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pro...ning-to-fly-all-about-priorities.html?start=6

And thanks!