Youtube Pilot and her dad perish in TN

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Piperonca said:
Can’t shake the suspicion her dad was a lapsed pilot. Someone from East TN has to know.
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Jenny herself knows that her dad was not a pilot. In the comment section of one of her videos, someone asked is your dad a pilot? Jenny responded, no my dad is not a pilot. She has definitively answered that question.
 
Piperonca said:
Thanks. How do you know?
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Because I went to the registry and entered the information provided in the obituary and reviewed the results.
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TCABM said:
Because I went to the registry and entered the information provided in the obituary and reviewed the results.
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Good detective work. It's a shame. Gentleman seemed like a decent sort.
 
I avoid the "attractive woman doing stuff" youtube genre like the plague, so I had no idea this lady existed before this thread. I kind of want to watch the videos so I know what all the hubbub is about, but it feels extra creepy to me to go back and watch them now that she's deceased. Makes me wonder what happens to a channel like that when something like this happens. I guess it becomes part of her estate? Does her executor get control of it? Would/should/could he/she shut the channel off? Do they even realize it exists? What's youtube's role in all of this? Whole thing is just weird.
 
Jim K said:
I avoid the "attractive woman doing stuff" youtube genre like the plague, so I had no idea this lady existed before this thread. I kind of want to watch the videos so I know what all the hubbub is about, but it feels extra creepy to me to go back and watch them now that she's deceased. Makes me wonder what happens to a channel like that when something like this happens. I guess it becomes part of her estate? Does her executor get control of it? Would/should/could he/she shut the channel off? Do they even realize it exists? What's youtube's role in all of this? Whole thing is just weird.
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Wouldn't be surprised to see all the videos go private within a few weeks, especially with the amount of controversy.
 
So… stepping back….

This is a very uninteresting story in terms of what happened, it’s pretty obvious. So why all the angst?

My guess is we all relate better as we can CLEARLY see what happened. Could be any of us in some way. We usually just never REALLY see the mindset and all.

All her little faults were each little links in the mishap chain. No one item to blame, never is. But we have the clearest picture EVER, that is the rarity here.

The take away is therefore pretty simple. Look and learn. It’s AWFUL for sure, but they ALL ARE. We usually assign something plausible and learn from that… no guesswork in this one, just brings it close to home and incites a lot of emotion.

A human factors smorgasbord of lessons here, so many, that’s why I think it has so many up in arms. Every one of us can really really relate to something we see.

But any one of these things is only a link. So now beware of the link for which you are UNAWARE.

It’s not disrespect to use this misfortune to prevent something in the future. Just keep as close to objective as possible and remain humble.

Maybe more of this painstaking recorded detail will accelerate safety? Food for thought.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Wouldn't be surprised to see all the videos go private within a few weeks, especially with the amount of controversy.
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They should turn comments off for sure, but removing the channel would honestly be a shame. Here’s why: we talk about IMSAFE and PAVE and external pressures, and if we’re lucky our instructor or DPE gives us a good scenario to work through involving those externalities. But here we get to witness how that pressure and decision-making actually looks and sounds.

Let her errors be a learning experience that benefit all. Too bad a qualified person couldn’t take all the examples and roll them into a demo reel with an explanatory narrative.
 
Tools said:
So… stepping back….

This is a very uninteresting story in terms of what happened, it’s pretty obvious. So why all the angst?

My guess is we all relate better as we can CLEARLY see what happened. Could be any of us in some way. We usually just never REALLY see the mindset and all.

All her little faults were each little links in the mishap chain. No one item to blame, never is. But we have the clearest picture EVER, that is the rarity here.

The take away is therefore pretty simple. Look and learn. It’s AWFUL for sure, but they ALL ARE. We usually assign something plausible and learn from that… no guesswork in this one, just brings it close to home and incites a lot of emotion.

A human factors smorgasbord of lessons here, so many, that’s why I think it has so many up in arms. Every one of us can really really relate to something we see.

But any one of these things is only a link. So now beware of the link for which you are UNAWARE.

It’s not disrespect to use this misfortune to prevent something in the future. Just keep as close to objective as possible and remain humble.

Maybe more of this painstaking recorded detail will accelerate safety? Food for thought.
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I hadn’t refreshed before posting it, but I basically just said the same thing, just not as well as you!
 
Piperonca said:

She talks about autopilot issues. Wonder if she might have been impaired (CO? meds?) plus having an autopilot on the fritz. Bet this gets taken down soon so you might want to watch it. Not encouraging to see her comprehension or lack of it.
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Unfortunately the autopilot problems were on the input side. Blancolirio did a great video on this crash. Why on God’s green earth do you not just disengage it and hand-fly the plane?
 
Tools said:
A human factors smorgasbord of lessons here, so many, that’s why I think it has so many up in arms. Every one of us can really really relate to something we see.

But any one of these things is only a link. So now beware of the link for which you are UNAWARE.

It’s not disrespect to use this misfortune to prevent something in the future. Just keep as close to objective as possible and remain humble.
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Definitely the links of which one is unaware are the scariest. I think one of the takeaways from this is the symptoms of confusion and loss of scan/situational awareness when those mystery links show up are things that we can notice in ourselves as indicators of the existence of those areas.
 
Piperonca said:
Eloquent and careful language you employ. I would add she also caused another person to perish. Finally, her incomprehensible lack of comprehension while fluttering about the controls of that fast moving airplane imperiled lives and property on the ground as long as she was in the air. To this I doubt she gave much thought.
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I'm curious what words you would use to describe people driving on the highway these days. :incazzato:

I can't help but wonder if we are regressing as humans. Our technology is destroying our attention spans. Is what we are seeing in these videos part of a larger trend?
 
Tools said:
This is a very uninteresting story in terms of what happened, it’s pretty obvious. So why all the angst?
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I've been thinking a lot about why this story is so interesting to me. I think it's because partially because of larger trends that are happening in the world these days, which crossed over into our world of aviation. People creating videos, documenting their lives, for better for worse, all in the name of clicks, likes and subscribes. I've seen so many other channels where amateurs do stuff that ends badly and document it all for the world to see. In this case, ending badly means people died.
 
As I reflect on this more, I think I’m more convinced of one thing. Some folks just don’t have some of the basic skills needed to accomplish the tasks needed to fly an airplane and continue to stay out of trouble. I’ve had students that come to this realization on their own. I don’t recall having to tell someone this directly. I have seen a few simply “wash out” because the expected standards were not loosened.

The youTubing habits and odd approach to learning that is seen pre-accident has added a lot of noise to a preexisting lack of skills. Something came along or was created that was beyond the pilots capability to escape.

Could she have kept it simple and flew safely for years to come in a much simpler airplane with minimal automation and no YouTubing? Maybe so.
 
mryan75 said:
It was manual trim, no auto trim at all.
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Right, that was offered as a possibility that was later eliminated. Point is, something with the autopilot and/or trim.
 
Okay, after watching more of her "content" I agree the Dad "DPE" thing was a joke. And it makes everything even more cringey than it was before. In the video where she visits an avionics shop with her dad, she can't figure out which runway is which at MQY, flies past the assigned runway and needs to ask tower for help figuring it out.
 
rickgn said:
I'm curious what words you would use to describe people driving on the highway these days.
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This forum is aviation, not automotive. But I must admit Tesla Autopilot is a slam dunk.

rickgn said:
I can't help but wonder if we are regressing as humans. Our technology is destroying our attention spans. Is what we are seeing in these videos part of a larger trend?
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Your question answers itself.
 
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dmspilot said:
Okay, after watching more of her "content" I agree the Dad "DPE" thing was a joke. And it makes everything even more cringey than it was before. In the video where she visits an avionics shop with her dad, she can't figure out which runway is which at MQY, flies past the assigned runway and needs to ask tower for help figuring it out.
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Right, she was having trouble reading the numbers to see which runway was 19 and Tower told her she missed it... OMG! 400 hours? No way!
 
rickgn said:
People creating videos, documenting their lives, for better for worse, all in the name of clicks, likes and subscribes.
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I used to and sometimes still do "Pooh Pooh" the getting clicks and likes thing. But I realized there are a lot of people making big money doing exactly that. Monetizing a YT channel can pay big, but it's like a lot of businesses where a lot of money can be made (like being a movie star or major league baseball player)......very few of the millions trying actually do it. But that doesn't stop many people from trying. It's just that the aviation ones are a little more risky/dangerous than some others.
 
Lon Stratton said:
I used to and sometimes still do "Pooh Pooh" the getting clicks and likes thing. But I realized there are a lot of people making big money doing exactly that. Monetizing a YT channel can pay big, but it's like a lot of businesses where a lot of money can be made (like being a movie star or major league baseball player)......very few of the millions trying actually do it. But that doesn't stop many people from trying. It's just that the aviation ones are a little more risky/dangerous than some others.
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It paid for my airplane and flying expenses.I t morphs in to a side hustle if you stick with it.
But if you're going to do it long-term you have to come up with a way to do it safely. I can think of at least one video afterwards I caught myself not doing it in as safe a manner as I probably should have. Now I plan things out very carefully and the majority of my videos these days are actually done on the ground. The airborne stuff is a lot of b-roll or extremely carefully thought and planned out clips that are chopped into no more than a couple of seconds at a time per shot. Which means 10 seconds of dialogue maybe 20 minutes of flying.

I don't think I'm unsafe but I don't want to have an incident and then people start picking videos after the fact and going oh clearly He has no idea what he's doing or he's fumbling around with cameras all the time.

At some point you have to start coming at it with a plan of attack and how to do it safely should always be top of mind.
 
FastEddieB said:
So sad. I’ve only watched one video so far, with her dad on approach to Gatlinburg (I think).

I agree with a lot of the speculation and observation so far. Lots of links in the chain.

But what stood out to me is something I’ll assign an acronym to: TMS. Stands for Too Many Screens.

I’m far from a Luddite, and an iPad may be a valuable tool in the cockpit when used properly. But in this case it seemed a hindrance, distracting her from basic aircraft control. It may be the case whereby a moving map is a huge boon to positional awareness, a second moving map is nice as a backup, but add in a third and I think any pilot would need a lot of discipline to stay focused on his or her main job, which is fly the damn plane.

If she had been my student, we’d have ditched the iPad and focused on properly programming and utilizing what I think was the Garmin 430 she kept futzing with. As a contributing factor is the rather klutzy user interface on the 430 that takes a lot of time to get and maintain proficiency with. Subsequent flights would focus on the autopilot, and so on, before integrating all the elements into a whole, but stressing at all times a basic instrument scan and basic attitude instrument flying. In short, go back to building blocks and get rid of distractions.
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Agreed except I wouldn’t waste instruction and flight time on the 430. I’d throw it in a ditch and replace it with something useful AFTER getting basic flying down.

I don’t see why a newer pilot with a plane would spend time learning GNS and building experience there.

If you’re old and used to it, fine, but I don’t know why we keep training new pilots on it.

It’s why I won’t get my ir until I can buy a plane. Club planes are all 430w


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MIFlyer said:
Agreed except I wouldn’t waste instruction and flight time on the 430. I’d throw it in a ditch and replace it with something useful AFTER getting basic flying down.

I don’t see why a newer pilot with a plane would spend time learning GNS and building experience there.

If you’re old and used to it, fine, but I don’t know why we keep training new pilots on it.

It’s why I won’t get my ir until I can buy a plane. Club planes are all 430w


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I agree. Why waste time teaching steam gauges? Trash 'em and don't bother learning until the G3X touch is in.

Gonna have to find an old pilot to fly it to the shop, though.
 
Jim K said:
I agree. Why waste time teaching steam gauges? Trash 'em and don't bother learning until the G3X touch is in.

Gonna have to find an old pilot to fly it to the shop, though.
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You misunderstood my point. Ease of use and less fussing with arcane usage are the goal.

Steam is superior to gns for vfr


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She should have been training with an old salt CFII in a Cherokee, with a simple six pack, and have fully developed hand flying skills prior to adding a paper approach chart on a kneeboard. The amount of distractions in that cockpit is astounding. No ipad, no GPS overlays, no cameras, no auto pilot until mastery of hand flying IFR.
 
texasclouds said:
She should have been training with an old salt CFII in a Cherokee, with a simple six pack, and have fully developed hand flying skills prior to adding a paper approach chart on a kneeboard. The amount of distractions in that cockpit is astounding. No ipad, no GPS overlays, no cameras, no auto pilot until mastery of hand flying IFR.
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That’s not what she wanted and she was the paying customer.
 
darthanubis said:
That’s not what she wanted and she was the paying customer.
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As I mentioned in a previous post, the paying customer wanted me to sign him off for the checkride when he wasn’t ready.

You can’t generally make the paying customer fly a different airplane, and maybe not even make them use paper charts initially, but the instructor is responsible for ensuring proper training and that the basics are understood before adding additional stuff.

“The customer is always right” isn’t a universal statement.
 
MauleSkinner said:
As I mentioned in a previous post, the paying customer wanted me to sign him off for the checkride when he wasn’t ready.

You can’t generally make the paying customer fly a different airplane, and maybe not even make them use paper charts initially, but the instructor is responsible for ensuring proper training and that the basics are understood before adding additional stuff.

“The customer is always right” isn’t a universal statement.
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You get she gets to choose who will and won’t be her CFI? The customer never has to be right, to exercise their right to hire who they please. What pleased her, as most people, was buying what she wanted. She didn’t want to buy/hire the type of CFI you are selling. She also wanted a fast complexed airplane. Using your argument the dealer shouldn’t have sold her the airplane unless she demonstrated proficiency to his satisfaction. Well that ain’t how it works. The customer is always right with enough money. Some call it affuenza. That being said, even common teen students can drop a CFI for no reason at all and choose another. Even if she had a good CFI, he/she would’ve been ignored the minute she bought her new plane and GoPro cameras. This has nothing to do with quality of training, paper charts or not. She just had a bad attitude towards her responsibilities as PIC and it ended predictably.
 
MIFlyer said:
If you’re old and used to it, fine, but I don’t know why we keep training new pilots on it.

It’s why I won’t get my ir until I can buy a plane. Club planes are all 430w
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Maybe because its the mostly widely used GPS in the fleet and alot of new pilots join clubs?
Im not even 30 yet and its not rocket science requiring decades to master, most of what you learn easily translates to other units.

Also I would'nt delay my training based on what GPS it has. Lots to learn in IFR besides how to punch buttons.
 
darthanubis said:
You get she gets to choose who will and won’t be her CFI? The customer never has to be right, to exercise their right to hire who they please. What pleased her, as most people, was buying what she wanted. She didn’t want to buy/hire the type of CFI you are selling. She also wanted a fast complexed airplane. Using your argument the dealer shouldn’t have sold her the airplane unless she demonstrated proficiency to his satisfaction. Well that ain’t how it works. The customer is always right with enough money. Some call it affuenza. That being said, even common teen students can drop a CFI for no reason at all and choose another. Even if she had a good CFI, he/she would’ve been ignored the minute she bought her new plane and GoPro cameras. This has nothing to do with quality of training, paper charts or not. She just had a bad attitude towards her responsibilities as PIC and it ended predictably.
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Yes, I get that she gets to choose her CFI. Apparently she chose CFIs who were not up to the task.

my argument says nothing about the dealer who sold the airplane…in fact, I stated that the CFI has no control over that. If a good CFI didn’t want the GoPros and was ignored, the good CFI wouldn’t fly with the student. Apparently that was the case with one of the CFIs that she fired.

Money doesn’t make the customer right...money (affluenza) can make a customer THINK he or she is right, but he or she is still wrong.

Yes, she apparently had a bad attitude toward her responsibilities as PIC, but quality instructors could have reduced the effect. She also apparently had a bad attitude toward her responsibilities as a student, and had at least one instructor fail her miserably.
 
darthanubis said:
Even if she had a good CFI, he/she would’ve been ignored the minute she bought her new plane and GoPro cameras. This has nothing to do with quality of training, paper charts or not. She just had a bad attitude towards her responsibilities as PIC and it ended predictably.
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Maybe. But if more CFIs had said "sorry, but you need your head in the flying game because you lack the skills and focus to safely operate this faster, more complex Debonair -- and I should NOT be having to do any PIC tasks for you" then perhaps it would have clicked with her that she needs to improve.

Sure, any one CFI might be giving her feedback she doesn't like and she can hire/fire at will, but if you hear it from enough people, you start to take it to heart. In the end if she wants to ignore everyone, sure that's her prerogative.
But a crap instructor can definitely hasten your demise if they don't point out to you "hey, I shouldn't have to get the gear for you... or the flaps... or help you with the A/P... or tell you which runway we need to go to... or point out the airport for you.". But by playing a role in her game of reality-denial where she's doing great in her training and getting ready for her IR checkride, you are providing a totally false sense of security to her in her abilities.

And knowing the student can switch CFIIs willy-nilly b/c she doesn't like you as an instructor doesn't abdicate responsibility of the instructor to give potentially life-saving feedback.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Maybe because its the mostly widely used GPS in the fleet and alot of new pilots join clubs?
Im not even 30 yet and its not rocket science requiring decades to master, most of what you learn easily translates to other units.

Also I would'nt delay my training based on what GPS it has. Lots to learn in IFR besides how to punch buttons.
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I guess the counter evidence is two dead pilots in this thread?

Clearly over reliance on hard to use automation did not help her.

In my case, it felt like learning the gns was more difficult than the actual ifr theory so I quit. I don’t want to spent precious hours and dollars mastering how many times to wink, click and stamp my foot the gns expects to get to a different place in the ui


I don’t have an objection to steam, but feel training would be incomplete without gps mastery in today’s airspace.

I recognized my limit, that it was a burdensome distraction, as the subject may have also since she was literally flying to the avionics shop to junk it.


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MauleSkinner said:
The automation she had isn’t hard to use. She just didn't know how to use it.
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Not to nitpick, but your second sentence is true. Your first sentence is objectively false, in this case. Though it may be “not hard to use” in most cases, in this case, it possibly was


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MIFlyer said:
Not to nitpick, but your second sentence is true. Your first sentence is objectively false, in this case. Though it may be “not hard to use” in most cases, in this case, it possibly was


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The fact that someone is unwilling or unable to learn something doesn’t make it hard to use.
 
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