your thoughts on buying or renting for flight training

muleywannabe

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Cherokee235
I have read extensively about this subject. I have had several people tell me to buy, use it for training, get a ppl, ifr etc because its cheaper than renting and you can sell if you want when you are done and lose very little or break even. Does this make sense? Take a beechcraft musketeer for example (only example although i like these): $25k purchase price, payments roughly $250.00 a month.
Figure 60 hours to ppl @ $108.00 per hour (local price cessna 172) $6,480 to ppl. Fuel alone is $2,400 @ 60 hours. I know you have to reserve for repairs and so on plus i will definitely get my IFR as well. Just would like opinions and advice, the monthly payment does not bother me plus insurance, which i pay renters now and fuel is a given. Give me pros and cons please and thoughts. All new to me, several of my friends bought Cessna 152's, 172's and so on as a trainer and later sold them for bigger aircraft after trained. Thank you.
 
I have read extensively about this subject. I have had several people tell me to buy, use it for training, get a ppl, ifr etc because its cheaper than renting and you can sell if you want when you are done and lose very little or break even. Does this make sense?
No, makes no sense unless you're flying a lot and have the ability to take a risk.

Take a beechcraft musketeer for example (only example although i like these): $25k purchase price, payments roughly $250.00 a month.

OK, stop, you're making payments on a Musketeer, you can't fund your training AND accept the risk of an engine eating itself.

Figure 60 hours to ppl @ $108.00 per hour (local price cessna 172) $6,480 to ppl. Fuel alone is $2,400 @ 60 hours. I know you have to reserve for repairs and so on plus i will definitely get my IFR as well. Just would like opinions and advice, the monthly payment does not bother me plus insurance, which i pay renters now and fuel is a given. Give me pros and cons please and thoughts. All new to me, several of my friends bought Cessna 152's, 172's and so on as a trainer and later sold them for bigger aircraft after trained. Thank you.

The monthly payment should bother you. And it's expensive to buy a plane, sell it, then upgrade to another one. The market hasn't exactly been going up for Musketeers lately.

That said, yeah, buy one get in too deep to back out :) Don't buy a plane to save money. Buy it cause you want it and can afford it. I'll leave it up to you to decide if financing a $25,000 plane means you can afford it or not.
 
Great points! I love the help here. I can easily fund my ppl costs just trying to find a justifyable reason to buy a plane...if i cant justify it, i wont do it. I was only giving the musketeer as example. Ive been flying in a c172n and love it.
 
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Great points! I love the help here. I can easily fund my ppl costs just trying to find a justifyable reason to buy a plane...if i cant justify it, i wont do it.

I have a Bonanza sitting at the avionics shop for some upgrades, a hangar bill about to be due on my kitchen counter… There ain't no justification for it. I just want it.

Didn't Warren Buffet name his plane "Indefensible"? :D
 
I have a Bonanza sitting at the avionics shop for some upgrades, a hangar bill about to be due on my kitchen counter… There ain't no justification for it. I just want it.

Didn't Warren Buffet name his plane "Indefensible"? :D

Exactly!! Haha
 
Biggest downside is spending a lot of money to buy a plane, taking a few lessons, and then discovering this isn't for you. By the time you sell the plane again, you're probably going to be out $5K or more even without the cost of the fuel and instructor for those few hours, and that is a very expensive hourly rate.

My suggestion is to determine if the plane you want to fly after your get your license is an appropriate plane for training, and then get at least through solo before buying it. Keep in mind that the bigger and more complex the plane, the longer primary training is going to take, so factor that into your decision. Not saying you can't go zero-to-Private in a Beech Baron or the like, but it's going to take a lot more time and give you fewer positive "strokes" until you're very near the end -- and that's not a recipe for staying highly motivated through the process.

The worst case, I think, would be buying a "trainer" plane you know won't meet your post-Private desires, thinking you'll buy it, train in it, sell it the day after you pass your PP practical test, and then buy what you really want. The costs of buying and selling that "trainer" plane will outstrip the savings you realize during the training process over renting the same trainer at the flight school.

I have had several people tell me to buy, use it for training, get a ppl, ifr etc because its cheaper than renting and you can sell if you want when you are done and lose very little or break even.
People say that all the time, but it really isn't true. Expect to have at least $5K less in your pocket at the end of that process after you figure the costs of buying (traveling to look, pre-purchase inspections, etc), and the costs of selling (advertising or broker fees, supply vs demand, etc). Anyone who says otherwise should be asked to post a $5K bond against those costs in return for taking any profit you make after expenses.
 
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I bought a 1/5 share after one lesson. Very happy with the choice still, but weather has made it tough to squeeze in lessons these days. Less risk than buying 100% of a plane if you can find a deal.

Good luck!
 
I was 62 when I started training, the question for me what would I do after I got my license, would I just look at or would I use it.

I wanted to fly so I bought a Cessna 172, got my license, the traded it for a Cherokee Six so I could take my friends and family with me.

I have flown to the Bahamas over 80 times, and still counting.

If you want to fly a lot buy... if you just want a license to look at, rent.

Owning is expensive, but cheaper if you fly a lot,,
 
Depends. If you are looking at flying because you have a known need/use for aviation, then buy the plane that will do what you need it to do. If you are looking at flying as a hobby, rent, because you may not justify it as a hobby shortly.
 
If you buy you will:
- save yourself the frustrations of renter life
- fly more. Once you are signed off for short cross countries you can just go flying whenever you want.
- not save money.
- be exposed to the 'joys' of ownership that usually involve a $540 part with a $460 labor charge (also known as one AMU aviation maintenance unit).
- experience the enjoyment and pride of having your own plane just sitting there for you to fly anytime you want.

How much instruction have you received so far ? You want to avoid buying a plane just to realize yhat flying is really not your passion. If you can swing the purchase or the ongoing note without having to neglect other financial responsibilities go for it.

The next question is: what plane?
Lots of opinions there.
 
Depends. If you are looking at flying because you have a known need/use for aviation, then buy the plane that will do what you need it to do. If you are looking at flying as a hobby, rent, because you may not justify it as a hobby shortly.

I agree with Henning.


I was like you in wondering what I needed to do. Here was my thought process....

Needed A plane to fly to and from work (2 week hitches) renting wouldn't allow me to do that.

Why pay 100-150$/hr on a plane that wasn't mine? Typical payment for an average bird is 200-400$ per month, not hour. And it would be MY plane.

Take into account fuel, hanger, insurance and maintenance and you're into a decent investment. Which is why it's important to find the right airplane for you if you buy.

The wow factor to non pilots is a big plus also. Freedom is probably the biggest upside. You just have to weigh the pro's and con's.

No free lunch in this game.
 
Can you write a check for a plane, then can you write a check for an engine the next day? If the answer is no rent. If the money is at all a question I wouldn't take the ownership ride until after you get your ticket.
 
Can you write a check for a plane, then can you write a check for an engine the next day? If the answer is no rent. If the money is at all a question I wouldn't take the ownership ride until after you get your ticket.

That math doesn't change after you get the ticket.
 
find a partnership. If you aren't flying at LEAST 100 hours a year then owning doesn't even come close to making financial sense...unless you just have the money and want the freedom of owning.

I bought into a 4 way partnership every early in my training. I knew I was going to finish so didn't worry about giving up on it. Owning was important to me for a few reasons.

1) I know the plane. I trained it, know the avionics, know it's nuances (warm starting, etc...) do owner maintenance so know exactly the shape the plane is in and every little squawk that comes up immediately...so no showing up to broken radios, landing lights, etc... I know the speeds, I can fly that plane around in the pattern if every instrument was broke. There's safety in that for me - and I wanted that.

2) Freedom. There's 4 of us and in 15 months in the partnership there hasn't been one time where there was a scheduling issue. I like having a plane in a hangar and I can look on a shared google calendar and know it's in there...ready to go. I don't have to call ahead and check a schedule or push a trip out a few days until the plane I want to fly becomes available, etc... I also don't have to worry or deal with any extra costs or grief if I want to take it somewhere for a week. The by-product of that is I don't have to worry about 'get-there-itis'. Every long trip I take I grab my work laptop. If I get stuck somewhere with weather or whatever...I can get my job done. I don't want any extra stress of trying to get a plane back because some dude has it booked at 7am the next morning for his checkride. Screw that.

Anyway, there's pretty much no way you can make the numbers work in any possible way that it 'makes sense' if you are flying recreationally. Just figure out what you can afford and find the right plane. The other big advantage to buying into a partnership is you can get way more plane than you could afford yourself...and of course all the bills get split up as well.

I figure I'll keep flying 100 or so a year (did 124 in my first year including getting my PPL) so when I did some back of the napkin math it 'made sense' to me...for that and the reasons I described above.

Good luck!!!
 
That math doesn't change after you get the ticket.

But you can always sell it for scrap and rent. Pre ticket that would be a momentum killer for most people.
 
No.

It's a $40 part.

The other $500 is because it's going on an airplane. The labor charge is for work you could have done yourself, except that it's on an airplane.


This is the nonesense that gets me. I changed the battery yesterday. The battery was $427 took awhile to find that one. 2 other shops wanted $787

The most minor things are expensive as hell because they go into a plane.
 
This is the nonesense that gets me. I changed the battery yesterday. The battery was $427 took awhile to find that one. 2 other shops wanted $787

The most minor things are expensive as hell because they go into a plane.

Like the 3rd class medical, PMA and repair regulations are relics:mad2:. When they were written in 1910's-1940's, they made sense due to uneven quality and reliability and demands of the early airplanes. In 2014? fuhgeddaboudit.
 
I have read extensively about this subject. I have had several people tell me to buy, use it for training, get a ppl, ifr etc because its cheaper than renting and you can sell if you want when you are done and lose very little or break even. Does this make sense? Take a beechcraft musketeer for example (only example although i like these): $25k purchase price, payments roughly $250.00 a month.
Figure 60 hours to ppl @ $108.00 per hour (local price cessna 172) $6,480 to ppl. Fuel alone is $2,400 @ 60 hours. I know you have to reserve for repairs and so on plus i will definitely get my IFR as well. Just would like opinions and advice, the monthly payment does not bother me plus insurance, which i pay renters now and fuel is a given. Give me pros and cons please and thoughts. All new to me, several of my friends bought Cessna 152's, 172's and so on as a trainer and later sold them for bigger aircraft after trained. Thank you.

Do you feel, as a student pilot, that you are able to make a smart purchase? I'd argue that, at this level, you simply don't have the background to make an intelligent purchase. You'll get there...you're just not there yet.
 
Do you feel, as a student pilot, that you are able to make a smart purchase? I'd argue that, at this level, you simply don't have the background to make an intelligent purchase. You'll get there...you're just not there yet.

Good question, I feel that I have surrounded myself with great, safe pilots that have been in my shoes before as well. To answer the question, No, I have no idea what to buy or what I am looking for but I have close family friends that do.

Everyone has given some great insight. I will most likely wait until I am near my cross country before I buy anything and will probably partner up with a friend. The ultimate goal would be to buy the aircraft, then rent it back to my company, if that is possible.
 
Good question, I feel that I have surrounded myself with great, safe pilots that have been in my shoes before as well. To answer the question, No, I have no idea what to buy or what I am looking for but I have close family friends that do.

Everyone has given some great insight. I will most likely wait until I am near my cross country before I buy anything and will probably partner up with a friend. The ultimate goal would be to buy the aircraft, then rent it back to my company, if that is possible.

Start lookin' now. Deals do pop up but IMHO, taking a year to find the right plane isn't out of the ordinary. It's not like pulling up to the VW lot where you sign then drive.
 
Everyone has given some great insight. I will most likely wait until I am near my cross country before I buy anything and will probably partner up with a friend. The ultimate goal would be to buy the aircraft, then rent it back to my company, if that is possible.

What kind of travel needs do you have for work ?
How far,
how often,
is it just you or does other staff have to come along,
do you own the company or do you need to ask for permission.

If you are getting both the license and the plane to fulfill travel needs for your business, there may be opportunity to cover some of your ownership and training expenses with pre-tax money. If your business use exceeds your private use you may be able to depreciate the aircraft just the same as you would depreciate a forklift. The answers you get from this forum on all issues relating to aircraft taxes tend to be inapplicable to your particular tax situation. Get information from a aviation tax consultant/CPA who can analyze your situation and make a recommendation that suits your situation. Rather than purchasing personally, it may be financially advantageous to you to purchase the aircraft (together with your 'partner') through a separate entity and then rent it both to yourself, your business and your partner.

If mid-term business travel is the objective for your aircraft purchase, buying a tainer type aircraft is probably going to create unneccessary expense. You may be better off renting through most of your training and then to buy a plane suitable for travel rather than a trainer. You will require additional training and you will take a hit on insurance during year 1, but on a 5 year timeframe that approach will be cheaper.
 
Lease back situations can be great, or a real loser, depends on how they are structured. Beware or you may up paying for a lot of other people's flying.
 
I bought a Citabria to train. Did NOT make payments, bought for cash. After my PPL, I wanted something different so I sold it to a banner tow guy. I towed banners for him for a while, and made a little money all the way around less gas and oil.

It worked for me, but might be considered a corner case. The good thing about owning your own plane is that you can choose your CFI from anywhere, and schedule any time. There is no run-up of hours in question, just straight training.

Don't make payments on anything. Buy for cash, get your PPL, keep or sell afterward.
 
We have an office location in Colorado, we travel there about 5 months out of the year and typically drive the 9 hour drive each time. we have had friends fly us, which typically costs between $2,500-$5,000 round trip. Typically we drive out there about 100 days a year total, including round trips. It would be nice to fly in comfort and cut a lot of time off as a whole.

the majority of the staff does not travel out there as we are already staffed at that location.
 
Biggest downside is spending a lot of money to buy a plane, taking a few lessons, and then discovering this isn't for you. By the time you sell the plane again, you're probably going to be out $5K or more even without the cost of the fuel and instructor for those few hours, and that is a very expensive hourly rate.

The converse of this argument is my experience. Bought a plane, found it much more difficult to learn to fly at my age. Was convinced it wasn't for me. Stuck with it because I bought a plane. Got my license and am glad I did. Certainly would have given up if I had rented.
 
This gentleman is not only going to get a ppl, he then wants to get an IFR rating and fly company employees to another location. How about insurance on this with very low time IFR time. The company liability exposure, Are they in agreement? How about the employees that will ride with this beginner? ( I sure wouldn't) I would rent until I had my ppl, and most or all of my IFR work done. As someone mentioned, he may not want to continue and or may not prove competent. What's wrong with commercial flights?
 
We have an office location in Colorado, we travel there about 5 months out of the year and typically drive the 9 hour drive each time. we have had friends fly us, which typically costs between $2,500-$5,000 round trip. Typically we drive out there about 100 days a year total, including round trips. It would be nice to fly in comfort and cut a lot of time off as a whole.

the majority of the staff does not travel out there as we are already staffed at that location.

How many people/weight of stuff do you need to take?
 
This gentleman is not only going to get a ppl, he then wants to get an IFR rating and fly company employees to another location. How about insurance on this with very low time IFR time. The company liability exposure, Are they in agreement? How about the employees that will ride with this beginner? ( I sure wouldn't) I would rent until I had my ppl, and most or all of my IFR work done. As someone mentioned, he may not want to continue and or may not prove competent. What's wrong with commercial flights?

That's really the question, and the best solution if he is hauling several employees may be to buy the plane that does the job like a 421 and hire a CFI to fly it while training him and building his hours and experience in it. If he doesn't have that much to haul, a 310 or Baron or even Bonanza could do the job.
 
This gentleman is not only going to get a ppl, he then wants to get an IFR rating and fly company employees to another location. How about insurance on this with very low time IFR time. The company liability exposure, Are they in agreement? How about the employees that will ride with this beginner? ( I sure wouldn't) I would rent until I had my ppl, and most or all of my IFR work done. As someone mentioned, he may not want to continue and or may not prove competent. What's wrong with commercial flights?


All valid points, I am talking future, not by any means going to jump into a plane with a whopping 60 hours and fly my family around. Absolutely not going to happen, PERIOD! just throw that little idea out of the window until I build some time, a few years I would say, plus being that the office is in Colorado, I would like to do my IFR training there because of mountain flight training and such. I have no desire to fly over the mountains what so ever, our office is in the foothills, so I will stop there but it would be nice to learn the weather trends and proper training for safety etc.

to answer your question about Commercial flights...drive 1.5-2.0 hours to the airport, be there 1.5 hours before, fly 1.5 hours to Denver, take an 1.0 hour to leave Denver, drive 2.0 hours to the office= 8 hour day at least, barring no issues with travel or delays. Been there done that, do that all the time. Have you traveled commercial lately yourself? it sucks, people are rude, employees don't care etc.

Like I said above before, I will not fly with my family until I have plenty of hours under my belt, we dont fly our employees out because they can fly 1-2 times a year commercially or drive. So it would be for family use and quality of life. I do appreciate all of your input as you have brought great questions up and I think its important to understand all of this, everyone here is helping me out tremendously and I thank you.
 
We have an office location in Colorado, we travel there about 5 months out of the year and typically drive the 9 hour drive each time. we have had friends fly us, which typically costs between $2,500-$5,000 round trip. Typically we drive out there about 100 days a year total, including round trips. It would be nice to fly in comfort and cut a lot of time off as a whole.

the majority of the staff does not travel out there as we are already staffed at that location.

So taking a partner is pretty much out. Sounds like you have already experienced the joys of magic carpet travel. It means you are doomed :D .

KC to Denver is about 470nm.
With a trainer (172, Warrior, Musketeer) that is 4:30
With a Bonanza/Mooney/210 it is 2:50.

With 30kts wind on the nose (not ucommon):
trainer 6:30 (and a fuel-stop, so more like 7hrs)
Bonanza/Mooney/210 3:45

There is no need to calculate a tailwind scenario :( .

What you will need to use the plane for business and that mission is
- an instrument rating
- a plane that can do 160kts, has downlink/uplink weather, a stormscope, WAAS GPS
- a lot of good judgement.

If you want to do this trip year-around, you will need:
- a plane with deicing capability (Bonanza,Mooney, with TKS, a 210 with boots or a light twin)
- more good judgement

If you lack the instrument rating, you will spend some quality time in Colorado waiting for the weather to clear.
If you buy a slow plane, you will grow frustrated with it and buy a faster one within a year (what is Kansas sales tax on aircraft ?, broker fees, pre-buy, travel).
If you lack good judgement, you will be dead within 2 years.

You should really talk to a aviation tax savy CPA. I dont believe you can expense your private pilot training, but if your 'company travel policy' states that you have to have an instrument rating to travel on company time, you may be able to expense that. It is IRS tested to pay for your recurrent training (e.g. instrument proficiency checks) if that is required for your work related flying.

If you fly for work, look into the insurance implications. Your companies commercial liability policy may have a aviation exemption, your workmans comp coverage may have an aviation exemption. Coverage for all these things is available for a price, what you want to avoid is having a work related accident with the plane, die and then have your workmans comp insurer subrogate against your estate.
 
So taking a partner is pretty much out. Sounds like you have already experienced the joys of magic carpet travel. It means you are doomed :D .

KC to Denver is about 470nm.
With a trainer (172, Warrior, Musketeer) that is 4:30
With a Bonanza/Mooney/210 it is 2:50.

With 30kts wind on the nose (not ucommon):
trainer 6:30 (and a fuel-stop, so more like 7hrs)
Bonanza/Mooney/210 3:45

There is no need to calculate a tailwind scenario :( .

What you will need to use the plane for business and that mission is
- an instrument rating
- a plane that can do 160kts, has downlink/uplink weather, a stormscope, WAAS GPS
- a lot of good judgement.

If you want to do this trip year-around, you will need:
- a plane with deicing capability (Bonanza,Mooney, with TKS, a 210 with boots or a light twin)
- more good judgement

If you lack the instrument rating, you will spend some quality time in Colorado waiting for the weather to clear.
If you buy a slow plane, you will grow frustrated with it and buy a faster one within a year (what is Kansas sales tax on aircraft ?, broker fees, pre-buy, travel).
If you lack good judgement, you will be dead within 2 years.

You should really talk to a aviation tax savy CPA. I dont believe you can expense your private pilot training, but if your 'company travel policy' states that you have to have an instrument rating to travel on company time, you may be able to expense that. It is IRS tested to pay for your recurrent training (e.g. instrument proficiency checks) if that is required for your work related flying.

If you fly for work, look into the insurance implications. Your companies commercial liability policy may have a aviation exemption, your workmans comp coverage may have an aviation exemption. Coverage for all these things is available for a price, what you want to avoid is having a work related accident with the plane, die and then have your workmans comp insurer subrogate against your estate.


Great advice. good points, thank you for the info. great perspective.
 
This can be a pretty straightforward financial analysis. Look at the number of hours you fly per year and the cost of renting for that number of hours. Write that number down.

Then look at the cash you'd have to put down on a purchase, the monthly payments (if you finance the purchase) the monthly cost of a hangar or tiedown, the annual cost of insurance (as a low time pilot without an instrument rating, expect $1,500 - $2,000 per year), the cost of an annual inspection (~$1200.00) broken down into a monthly set aside, the annual cost of GPS data updates (~$450/year for a national database from Jepp). Finally, look at the number of hours on the engine and calculate the hours remaining for an overhaul assuming it will reach TBO. If you buy a plane with a 4 banger, the cost of a full engine overhaul will run $12,000 - $15,000 so use $13,500 as a guesstimate. Divide $13,599 by the hours remaining before TBO and add that to your hourly cost as a set aside. Add in the cost of fuel for the number of hours you will fly. Add all of that together and then decide which is cheaper. In most cases, you''ll have to fly several hundred hours per year before the lower direct hourly cost of flying your own plane is cheaper overall than renting. That is even true if you take a rental away for a weekend or two and pay the daily minimums. The fixed costs associated with owning a plane are what kill you.

Partnerships are a good intermediate option. They share those fixed costs among the members and that makes partial ownership more financially attractive, if you can find the right group of people.

One other reason for buying is if the plane you want to fly is not available as a rental. If you want to do aerobatics, you're typically stuck buying a plane because aerobatic rentals are few and far between. The same is true for taildraggers and floatplanes. If you fly a plain vanilla 4 seat aircraft with fixed gear, it is hard to justify a purchase financially. You can justify it emotionally, but that is something none of us can help you with...
 
This can be a pretty straightforward financial analysis. Look at the number of hours you fly per year and the cost of renting for that number of hours. Write that number down.

Yep. If I take the following numbers on a Cessna 172 for local training:

  • $135 rental cost
  • Mogas is available for $3.40 locally; $5.65 for Avgas
  • Hangars are $150/month, covered tie downs are $50
  • Annuals on 172's locally run ~ $750
  • Zero time student pilot insurance costs ~ $950/year
  • Throw in $2,000 for miscellaneous expenses, and $1.25/hour for oil

Cost-wise, the breakdown looks like this:
  1. Rental: $135/hour
  2. Buy, burn avgas, and hangar it: $114/hour
  3. Buy, burn mogas and store it outdoors: $82.40/hour.
If you assume PPL -> IR take 100 hours between them, and our new pilot flies another 50 hours in the first year, then the savings for buying comes to somewhere between $3,100 and $7,800, which is significant (cuts the training cost in half?). On a $40,000 plane purchase you can just about lose 20% on resale and still break even.

Yes, this is an optimistic (or at least a non-pessimistic) set of assumptions, and they're only valid in my area because they're based on local prices, and the opportunity cost (or financing associated with) buying an aircraft is not factored in and so on.

But purchasing might be a compelling alternative to renting if the variables are right...
 
Then look at the cash you'd have to put down on a purchase, the monthly payments (if you finance the purchase) the monthly cost of a hangar or tiedown, the annual cost of insurance (as a low time pilot without an instrument rating, expect $1,500 - $2,000 per year), the cost of an annual inspection (~$1200.00) broken down into a monthly set aside, the annual cost of GPS data updates (~$450/year for a national database from Jepp). Finally, look at the number of hours on the engine and calculate the hours remaining for an overhaul assuming it will reach TBO. If you buy a plane with a 4 banger, the cost of a full engine overhaul will run $12,000 - $15,000 so use $13,500 as a guesstimate. Divide $13,599 by the hours remaining before TBO and add that to your hourly cost as a set aside. Add in the cost of fuel for the number of hours you will fly. Add all of that together and then decide which is cheaper.

All that math flies out the window when the mechanic sends you a text with 'I am done with the bore-scope, please call me' ;-)
 
This is the nonesense that gets me. I changed the battery yesterday. The battery was $427 took awhile to find that one. 2 other shops wanted $787

The most minor things are expensive as hell because they go into a plane.

$11.86 per month just for the battery, if you follow the Tampico mainenance manual replacement schedule.




I'm pretty sure I'll never buy a 24 volt airplane.
 
$11.86 per month just for the battery, if you follow the Tampico mainenance manual replacement schedule.




I'm pretty sure I'll never buy a 24 volt airplane.

What section of the maintenance manual is the battery replacement in ?
 
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