You wonder what happened the AOPA Commander?

Isn't $110,000 a pretty good price?

Must .... not ... look ...at ....these.
 
wbarnhill said:
One of the reasons I wish they'd move towards a new kind of sweepstakes... but oh well.
Agreed.

OR. . . if AOPA would do a few less bells & whistles with the sweepstakes airplanes and pay the taxes and first year's insurance, then it might make more sense.

OR. . . if AOPA would consider giving a sweepstakes laundry list of prizes such as a complete engine overhaul, new paint & interior, new avionics/panel, new comm system, etc for present aircraft owners. In addition to those kind of prizes, sweepstakes could also offer numerous King/Sporty's courses for pilots wanting to upgrade to IR, Commercial, Multi, Seaplane, etc.

OR. . . universal fuel cards for $5000 worth of avgas, FBO/rental car and hotel accomodations in conjunction with Pilot Getaways fly-in destinations, etc.

Then a longer list of "consolation" prizes like handheld comms, aviator sunglasses, books, flight bags, GPS units, etc.

The "all or nothing" type of sweepstakes does little for most consumers and organization members--especially when your odds are one in one-half million.

They could also do a cross-promotion with Sporty's and offer a decent discount (say like 20% to 30%) for members who renew before their membership lapses or who renew for two or three years in advance instead of just one.

Lot of things they could be doing much better in regards to using the sweepstakes as a member retention marketing tool.

Just my opinion.

-JD

P.S. Hope you're still flying, Mr. Barnhill.
 
At the very least, some consolation prizes would be nice.

I'll let you guys know how I manage to pay the taxes on the 6 when Phil drops it off next winter....
 
Ken Ibold said:
Read the listing again. He bought the AOPA Commander and this is his old Commander.
I know. I didn't know a 1970s Turbo Commander equipped that well goes for $110k. I think it's a good price.

I'm thinking compared to what my 1968 is worth. I guess this is not that much newer.
 
CowboyPilot said:
.... if AOPA would do a few less bells & whistles with the sweepstakes airplanes and pay the taxes and first year's insurance, then it might make more sense.

OR. . . if AOPA would consider giving a sweepstakes laundry list of prizes such as a complete engine overhaul, new paint & interior, new avionics/panel, new comm system, etc for present aircraft owners. In addition to those kind of prizes, sweepstakes could also offer numerous King/Sporty's courses for pilots wanting to upgrade to IR, Commercial, Multi, Seaplane, etc.

OR. . . universal fuel cards for $5000 worth of avgas, FBO/rental car and hotel accomodations in conjunction with Pilot Getaways fly-in destinations, etc.

Then a longer list of "consolation" prizes like handheld comms, aviator sunglasses, books, flight bags, GPS units, etc.

The "all or nothing" type of sweepstakes does little for most consumers and organization members--especially when your odds are one in one-half million.

They could also do a cross-promotion with Sporty's and offer a decent discount (say like 20% to 30%) for members who renew before their membership lapses or who renew for two or three years in advance instead of just one.

Lot of things they could be doing much better in regards to using the sweepstakes as a member retention marketing tool.
...

I imagine a lot of equipment and services are donated for free or a greatly reduced price as an in kind for the exposure, but, you're right, they could offer that to an owner to use on a existing plane.

That would be it! A surprise AIRPLANE makeover. Whatta show!
 
mikea said:
Isn't $110,000 a pretty good price?

Must .... not ... look ...at ....these.

$110,000 is probably in the right ballpark, if not a bit high with the avionics.
 
Most likely the AOPA winner had to sell it to pay the taxes.

If a winner needs to go out and take out a loan with the aircraft as collateral to pay taxes for a few years and doesn't, then they don't deserve the plane.
 
If a winner needs to go out and take out a loan with the aircraft as collateral to pay taxes for a few years and doesn't, then they don't deserve the plane.

I thought so too, but if you run the numbers...if you pay 36% tax on a $300,000 prize you have a bill of $100,000. See what the payments are on a $100,000 loan at market rates, even over 15 years. Not everyone has $1nnn a month for playing around money, and that doesn't include insurance, hangar, fuel, maintenance.
 
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I thought so too, but if you run the numbers...if you pay 36% tax on a $300,000 prize you have a bill of $100,000. See what the payments are on $100,000 at market rates, even over 15 years. Not everyone has $1nnn a month for playing around money, and that doesn't include insurance, hangar, fuel.

It can be worse than that.

Lets say you are in the 28% tax bracket and you win a $300,000 airplane. That $300,000 is now income and that through you into the 33% bracket. You pay 33% on your price AND now you have to pay 5% more tax on all your other income that hits that bracket as a result.
 
It can be worse than that.

Lets say you are in the 28% tax bracket and you win a $300,000 airplane. That $300,000 is now income and that through you into the 33% bracket. You pay 33% on your price AND now you have to pay 5% more tax on all your other income that hits that bracket as a result.

I don't think it works that way. Even if your "pre-win" income has you right at the top of the 28% bracket, only the additional $300k "income" will be taxed at the higher rate.
 
It can be worse than that.

Lets say you are in the 28% tax bracket and you win a $300,000 airplane. That $300,000 is now income and that through you into the 33% bracket. You pay 33% on your price AND now you have to pay 5% more tax on all your other income that hits that bracket as a result.

I don't think it works that way. Even if your "pre-win" income has you right at the top of the 28% bracket, only the additional $300k "income" will be taxed at the higher rate.

OTOH unless you live in a "no state income tax" state, you'll pay the state in addition to the feds. In my state the tax on an additional $300k would come to $25-40k.
 
You can always try to "revalue" the prize if you think AOPA has it too high. After all, the "prize marketer" has a vested interest in making the prize sound "valuable"... sometimes more than it's REALLY worth.

Does anybody know if AOPA sends a 1099 to the winner? Do they provide any documentation as to how they arrived at the value? I'd think fair market value might be far different than the sum of the MSRP's of all donated items.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/tax_adviser/20030227a1.asp
 
I don't think it works that way. Even if your "pre-win" income has you right at the top of the 28% bracket, only the additional $300k "income" will be taxed at the higher rate.

You're right. The income tax is progressive. (Not the actual numbers)
teh first 10,000 is at 15%, then you pay 23% on 10,0001 - 20,000 then 28% on 30,001 to 120,000 then 32% on every dollar above that...
 
What about income averaging ?
 
What about income averaging ?

My CPA said it's gone. Besides if you were in the upper edge of the 28% bracket already it wouldn't help. You'd still have all of the prize income being at 32(?)%
 
Agreed.

OR. . . if AOPA would do a few less bells & whistles with the sweepstakes airplanes and pay the taxes and first year's insurance, then it might make more sense.

Hi JD, been a while. :D

If I understand the tax code correctly, no one but the recipient of the gifted, or donated, or winning item may pay the taxes for that item. What happens is, the 'payment' of the taxes for the winner amounts to additional income. That income would be reportable as prize winnings, so you would owe not only the tax on the value of the plane, but also additional tax on the $$$ given by someone to pay the taxes for the first prize. Is that clear? Not really, but that's the way it works. So if the plane were market valued at $300k, and AOPA(or whomever) also gave away $100k to pay the gummint, the winner would now owe not just the tax on the plane, but also the tax on the cash given to pay the tax on the plane.

This is a complex mechanism in the tax code to keep companies from paying the income taxes of the employees. Although no employer would likely pay my income tax, they would dangle it in front of a CEO. The newest scam to get around the tax angle is to sign a line of credit, or corp loan to the CEO, which has unreasonably favorable repayment terms. That way, as long as it's listed as a repayable obligation it's not technically 'income'. The IRS is looking very unfavorable at these dodges recently as well.
 
according to Phil Boyer at a recent Town Hall meeting, at the very end of the of the hoopla where they present the winner with the new airplane, just before Phil is getting on da jet to go home, he runs over to the winner, sticks a 1099 in his hand, turns around and runs away.
 
If I understand the tax code correctly, no one but the recipient of the gifted, or donated, or winning item may pay the taxes for that item. What happens is, the 'payment' of the taxes for the winner amounts to additional income. That income would be reportable as prize winnings, so you would owe not only the tax on the value of the plane, but also additional tax on the $$$ given by someone to pay the taxes for the first prize. Is that clear? Not really, but that's the way it works. So if the plane were market valued at $300k, and AOPA(or whomever) also gave away $100k to pay the gummint, the winner would now owe not just the tax on the plane, but also the tax on the cash given to pay the tax on the plane.

This is a complex mechanism in the tax code to keep companies from paying the income taxes of the employees. Although no employer would likely pay my income tax, they would dangle it in front of a CEO. The newest scam to get around the tax angle is to sign a line of credit, or corp loan to the CEO, which has unreasonably favorable repayment terms. That way, as long as it's listed as a repayable obligation it's not technically 'income'. The IRS is looking very unfavorable at these dodges recently as well.

I happen to know that at least a handful of years ago, CEOs and officers DID have their taxes paid on incentive payments. It is routine to "mark up" a bonus, so the $1M bonus the board intends is actually is paid with a $1.3M check.

I'm sure they have some ways to do some tax shielding with how it's paid, but the income tax burden for the poor soul IS paid as part of the deal.

Note that you won't find any officers that get much more than $1M in salary because some "excessive compensation" laws were put in place to make the part over $1M not deductible for the corporation. So they pay with stock options and other schemes.

Steve Jobs still gets a buck as salary. Apple so far as barely skated by an investigation of how some Apple execs, including Jobs, were given options at strike prices that were post dated to make them worth more. The difference was worth $biilions to the execs.

The change in the tax code to make capitals gains not be regular income was also so those poor souls could exercise stock options and not pay the full retail 32% on the gains.
 
So if the plane were market valued at $300k, and AOPA(or whomever) also gave away $100k to pay the gummint, the winner would now owe not just the tax on the plane, but also the tax on the cash given to pay the tax on the plane.
Yep so if the tax on the $300k plane is $100k then the tax on $400k ($300k plane + $100k cash) would be what? About $133k?
It's therefore easy to see that if the winner was awarded something like $150k or $175k in cash along with the plane valued at $300k, they'd easily be able to cover the taxes on the entire $475k prize and probably have a few pecos left over for the first years operating expenses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this can easily be done.

Every time someone suggests giving away a check for the taxes along with the airplane, it seems like there's a bunch of people who claim it wouldn't work because you'd still have to pay tax on the cash portion out of pocket. Let me ask you, how does a lottery winner afford to pay the taxes on a $150M lottery prize out of pocket? If you won a $150M lottery would you tear up the ticket because you couldn't afford to pay the taxes out of pocket?

There is absolutely no reason any organization couldn't award an airplane along with a cash fund of a sufficient amount to cover both the tax on the airplane and the tax on the cash fund. Why is this so hard for some to understand?
 
Yep so if the tax on the $300k plane is $100k then the tax on $400k ($300k plane + $100k cash) would be what? About $133k?
It's therefore easy to see that if the winner was awarded something like $150k or $175k in cash along with the plane valued at $300k, they'd easily be able to cover the taxes on the entire $475k prize and probably have a few pecos left over for the first years operating expenses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this can easily be done.

Every time someone suggests giving away a check for the taxes along with the airplane, it seems like there's a bunch of people who claim it wouldn't work because you'd still have to pay tax on the cash portion out of pocket. Let me ask you, how does a lottery winner afford to pay the taxes on a $150M lottery prize out of pocket? If you won a $150M lottery would you tear up the ticket because you couldn't afford to pay the taxes out of pocket?

There is absolutely no reason any organization couldn't award an airplane along with a cash fund of a sufficient amount to cover both the tax on the airplane and the tax on the cash fund. Why is this so hard for some to understand?

:D Yeah, I had to quit my job because when they paid me $2000 I had to pay $500 in tax FIRST. That was really hard to come up with when I was out of work. In a short time I couldn't afford any more paychecks.
 
Every time someone suggests giving away a check for the taxes along with the airplane, it seems like there's a bunch of people who claim it wouldn't work because you'd still have to pay tax on the cash portion out of pocket. Let me ask you, how does a lottery winner afford to pay the taxes on a $150M lottery prize out of pocket? If you won a $150M lottery would you tear up the ticket because you couldn't afford to pay the taxes out of pocket?

There is absolutely no reason any organization couldn't award an airplane along with a cash fund of a sufficient amount to cover both the tax on the airplane and the tax on the cash fund. Why is this so hard for some to understand?


This was the Richard Hatch argument. I think he's serving 5 years in the fed pen. While it can be done through some torturous, and decietful mechanisms that operate on the lending, or options system(a 1099-C will be coming later), it isn't hard to understand that when you receive a prize, gift, stipend, gratuity, or something else of value, you owe taxes on it. Now, the hypothetical you gave was a lottery winnings. That would be reported on a W-2G(gaming) because it was the result of purchase, or inducement to purchase a gaming ticket.

This is not the same at all as winnings from a contest entered where no purchase(ticket, wager, etc) is required. In this case, the total value of the contest is taxable. So, it doesn't matter if it's a $20k C150 and $380k in cash, or $300k in plane, and $100k in cash, the total contest renumeration is $400k, and that is the basis of the tax due. The total value of that prize will be reported on a 1099-MISC, regardless of the cash or non-cash nature of the prize. You may use the cash given to you to pay the tax, or sell your non-cash winnings to pay the tax, but it doesn't matter, you still owe the tax.

Now, where things get sticky. Suppose John Doe owes $133k in tax on his winnings, and the Acme company steps up and says 'I'll pay John's taxes'(John will get a 1099-MISC from Acme). You would think, as long as the IRS get's their cut that it wouldn't matter where the money came from. Not so, ruling based on winnings from the game show back in the '50s settled it, and form 525 is where you report:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Expenses paid by another. If your personal expenses are paid for by another person, such as a corporation, the payment may be taxable to you depending upon your relationship with that person and the nature of the payment. But if the payment makes up for a loss caused by that person, and only restores you to the position you were in before the loss, the payment is not includible in your income.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, if the Acme company is paying your personal expenses(tax), then you have to report that, and pay tax on what you've received.

Perhaps you're thinking of the Offer In Compromise program by the IRS? In that, a third party can in some cases pay the taxes due for another person, but the limitations are due to hardship, and many other payment programs must have been exhausted first. It would not be considered for one who just received $400k in prize winnings, hardly a hardship situation.

Now if you can get someone, or some company to just give you the cash, with no 1099, or W-2 of any kind, I suppose you could say you've kept the money in your matress and use it to pay the taxes owed, but that seems rather improbable. :cheerswine:
 
Y'all are making this too confusing. Its simple (using sample numbers):

You owe 10% tax.
Plane is worth $100,000
You owe $10,000

If you are given $20,000 on top of the plane, then:
You owe $12,000

Which means, you made off with $8,000 extra by having the cash added. Tweak it a bit, and one can actually have taxes paid for.
 
Now if you can get someone, or some company to just give you the cash, with no 1099, or W-2 of any kind, I suppose you could say you've kept the money in your matress and use it to pay the taxes owed, but that seems rather improbable. :cheerswine:
Where in my post did I suggest that you would not owe taxes on the money portion of the prize? Nowhere that's where. Where in my post did I suggest that you would not get a 1099 for the entire prize of the airplane plus the cash? Nowhere. Richard Hatch is in jail because he failed to report the income he recieved from his winnings. Where in my post did I suggest anyone could do that and get away with it? Nowhere.

Go back and read my post again. It's really simple. You win an airplane and you win a chunk of cash. You report both. You owe taxes on both. Whether or not you choose to use the cash part of your prize to pay the taxes owed on the total prize is up to you. A wise person would use the money to pay the taxes owed. An unwise person would probably end up in jail. Honestly I fail to see how you can read what I posted and think I was suggesting any of the things you claim I was suggesting. :confused:
 
The term is called "Grossing up" Basically, say that the "prize" is $100, and say that prize is in the 30% tax bracket. If I want to receive $100 after taxes, the prize must be "grossed up" to cover the tax, and the tax on the extra money. In the $100/30% example, the prize giver has to give me an extra $42.86 for me to get $100 in the end.

The simple formula is prize/(1-tax rate). 100/(1-0.3) = 142.86.

142.86 x 30% = 42.86. 142.86 - 42.86 = 100.

--Carlos V.
 
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