Yet Another Owning Thread...

giaviv

Pre-Flight
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
51
Display Name

Display name:
giaviv
hey folks,

as I am making my final arrangements for moving to the US (I'm Israeli and going off to college @ Colgate University in Upstate NY), I am also conducting some research about the best way to go about advancing my aviation career while at school.

I have a PPL and around 100 TT. my next goal is an instrument rating, followed by time building for a commercial license. even though aviation is just a hobby for me (I don't plan nor want to do it for a living), I absolutely love it and therefore would like to keep gaining experience and ratings.

I have 7 months of school a year and I figured at least 12 hours a month (is that too much? too little?) so that adds up to around 85 hours a year.

The two options are of course renting and owning (i tried looking into leasebacks / buying a share of a plane or buying block time but there were no results in my area). there is an airport 1 mile from my school (Hamilton Municipal) with a single rental company. they rent block hours on a 2003 172S for $145 wet (which is a little expensive for me). the nearest airport is 45 minutes away but has a wet warrior for $105.

therefore, renting at the close airport (which i will most likely end up doing if i resort to renting) will cost me around $12,500 a year.

I have been thoroughly researching owning and operational costs and though I realize they can vary significantly i would still like your input.

a late 1970's / early 1980's C172 / PA-28 appear to go for about $40,000-$50,000 (does that make sense?) lets assume the airplane will be bought against a loan of $55,000 payable over the course of 12 years ($460/month).
fixed costs that I was able to think of:
insurance = $2,500 / year
annual + 100 hour inspections = $5,000 / year
hangar = $1,500 / year
loan payment = $5,520 / year
(please let me know if anything here doesn't make sense to you).
total = $14,520

variable operating costs:
new engine (TBO=2000 hrs) = $9 / hour
fuel burn (around 8 gal an hour times 6 which is high for NY state including tax) = $48 / hour
preventive maintenance = $4 / hour
total = $61 / hour.

hence, for 85 hours i will pay $14,520 + 85 * $61 = $19,705 yearly.

assuming i can find 2 more people who will go in on this with me (very reasonable - we have a few students pilots @ Colgate), I cut the fixed costs in 3, which means (85 hours each) -> ($14,520 / 3) + 85 * $61 = $10,025 per person, already $2,000 below the renting price and I only share the airplane with two other people.

my main questions to you guys are:
1) do my numbers make sense?
2) where does one get the initial capital to pay the down payment, and how does that add up with the numbers?
3) summer breaks are 3 months, and there is a good chance the airplane will not be flown a lot during that time. other than it being a good time for an annual, are there any mechanical ramifications for an airplane not flying for so long?
4) another main issue is who is the actual owner of the airplane. i will be graduating in 4 years and will leave Colgate, and so will my classmates, each to a different direction. hopefully, someone will take our spot in paying the loan amount and fixed costs, but when the loan comes to an end after the 12 year period, who will own the plane? i've looked into starting a flying club but it seems like a lot more work compared to sharing an airplane with a couple friends.

another option is to sell the airplane after the 4 years, when 30% of the loan has been paid. is that a reasonable loss of value for an airplane - or in other words, if we buy it for $50,000, will we be able to sell it for $35,000 4 years later?

I realize some of my questions might be vague and/or uneducated. my apologies, I am just an enthusiastic 21 year old who loves flying - I am sure most of you can relate :)

any input would be sincerely appreciated. thank you so much for your time!!
 
I believe you could own and operate a C-150 much cheaper and get what you need from it.
 
I agree, however I also want the airplane for some fun flying (such as flying with friends). I actually did most of my training on a 152 and I love it. If a 172 / other 4 seater doesn't work, I might get a 152.
Thank you for your reply!
 
Agreed. Known a few folks who've done that to build time.

Note that I personally believe you don't purchase an aircraft to get a rating. You purchase an aircraft to build time.

If all your next goal is, is to get the Instrument Rating -- just pay for the Instrument Rating.

If there's a super-goal above that to build tons of time... while getting ALL your ratings, the slowest cheapest aircraft that carries the instrumentation you need to do your ratings is the best route. But that same slow, cheap airplane won't be good for complex, high-performance, etc.

Buying a C-150 or similar and doing a LOT of X-C in it will plaster hours in the logbook fast, 'cause you don't go anywhere fast in a C-150!
 
insurance = $2,500 / year You're high here. Should be around $800-$1000 first year
annual + 100 hour inspections = $5,000 / year Also high, unless you buy a POS. In 4 years of owning a PA28 I don't think I spent that much TOTAL in mx.
hangar = $1,500 / year In NY, figure at least $3,000 maybe up to $5,000
loan payment = $5,520 / year
(please let me know if anything here doesn't make sense to you).
total = $14,520

variable operating costs:
new engine (TBO=2000 hrs) = $9 / hour
fuel burn (around 8 gal an hour times 6 which is high for NY state including tax) = $48 / hour
preventive maintenance = $4 / hour
total = $61 / hour.

I never worry about these costs because you could have a brand new engine crap out you at 300 hours, and now you only have $2700 put away for a new engine. (Happened to my dad). You could have anything else go out at any time as well. If you want to "plan" on this stuff, just have $25k ready to go. The whole engine and avionics reserve is just some pull out of thin air number. Plus, you probably won't keep your first plane for 2000 hours.

hence, for 85 hours i will pay $14,520 + 85 * $61 = $19,705 yearly.

That number is probably high for what your actual out of pocket will be on a PA28/172

You also don't need 100 hr inspections unless it's a for hire deal, and at 85hrs a year, those will continually get reset.
 
That's actually good news.. I think I will still stick to a 4 seater for now (until I decide it's not feasable, at which point I will consider the 150 option).

I think having 25k available will be easier if 3-4 people are involved.

Thank you for your comments guys. Looking forward to learning what you / other people have to say!
 
If you do not have the capital to make the down payment you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have the money required to own an airplane.
 
@Jesse - it's not that I don't have the money. its who will pay how much and how will that play out in the monthly dues and so forth.
for example, if us 3 put down $5,000 each, plus pay the loan amount's fixed costs, whats gonna happen when we leave? i don't mind forgetting about the monthly payments i invested if i leave, but that isn't the case if i also put down a significant down payment.
 
If you are looking into a partnership you'd probably want to form some sort of corporation or LLC anyway. This way you will also be able to deal with selling the plane at the end of the term. Another thing is that you have to be a US citizen to own an N registered airplane. So you will probably have to set up a corporation or LLC to buy the plane anyway.
 
I will look forward to hearing from you about your experiences with our "Home Land Security" ...
Being a foreign national and wanting to wander out on an airport ramp could be interesting depending on the level of paranoia of the airport manager...
I suspect as an Israeli you are familiar with paranoia...

ciao,

denny-o
 
a partnership would probably make sense, though i have family here and i can register the airplane to them.

denny, i've wandered around on airport ramps quite a bit in the US. it did require passing a TSA screening before getting my student pilot certificate, but now that i have it its quite enjoyable.
 
okay so setting up a partnership. us 3 guys, putting in the initial seed and the fixes costs.

what would you guys do at the end of the 4 years period when we each go a separate way? or is there another way to do this?
 
That's actually good news.. I think I will still stick to a 4 seater for now (until I decide it's not feasable, at which point I will consider the 150 option).

I think having 25k available will be easier if 3-4 people are involved.

Thank you for your comments guys. Looking forward to learning what you / other people have to say!

Keep in mind, very few 4 seaters are able to lift four adults and more than an hour's fuel.
 
So which 2 seater other than the 150/152 would you guys recommend?
 
What about those 162s? I know they cost a lot more, but is maintenance cheaper? They seem to perform very well on 6 gph. Any other planes I should be looking at?

Thanks again!?
 
What about those 162s? I know they cost a lot more, but is maintenance cheaper? They seem to perform very well on 6 gph. Any other planes I should be looking at?

Thanks again!?

the 162 has the same basic construction methods and basically same engine as a 150. i don't see why it would be any cheaper to operate except for the first X years before moving parts start to wear out. in other words you aren't going to make up the difference anytime soon, i wouldn't think.

if you're looking for other two seat options the piper colt always seemed to me to be a good option for the money. diamond DA-20 would be a good one too if you can come up with the money, they are sweet flying airplanes and you can probably find some older ones coming out of flight school fleets for pretty good prices.
 
So which 2 seater other than the 150/152 would you guys recommend?

A 172 with the rear seat removed :rofl:

Actually I'm serious.

But willing to accept two seats opens an entire world of various LSA and E-LSA models not to mention various used homebuilt models to explore. Also classic two seaters if you are interested, everything from the J3 Cub to the Globe Swift.
 
So which 2 seater other than the 150/152 would you guys recommend?

Having trained in a 152, I understand and agree with your desire for something a bit more.

With regards to 2 seaters, maybe an RV-12 (though probably wont work for IFR training unless EAB and so equipped.)
Or a Piper Tomahawk?

One of the few good things about a new C-162 versus all the used alternatives is that limited warranties may provide some pocketbook peace of mind for a while for things not covered by insurance. The warranty limitations are spelled out here: http://www.airplus24.com/Skycatcher.pdf
 
I agree that a Tri Pacer would be a good choice. A great plane with the speed of a 172 for much much less but I also agree that if your only going to be in the States for 4 years renting may be a more economically sensible option.

Just curious Aviv, what town do you live in. Alon ( Armegeddon Aviator) from this board ( and a good friend of mine) lives in Rishon Yaakov and flys out of Megiddo.
 
hey guys. thanks for your answers.
i live in tel-aviv, though i'm leaving next week to be in toronto for the summer.

the reason i brought up the 162's is because they aren't significantly more expensive, and i feel like a) they will not break down as much in the years i will own them and b) they will be easier to sell after 4 years. what do you think?

what about leasing airplanes? i could potentially commit to between 20-35 hours a month. where can i look for airplane leasing? is that common in the aviation world?
 
Last edited:
hey guys. thanks for your answers.
i live in tel-aviv, though i'm leaving next week to be in toronto for the summer.

the reason i brought up the 162's is because they aren't significantly more expensive, and i feel like a) they will not break down as much in the years i will own them and b) they will be easier to sell after 4 years.


what do you think?
A 162 is pretty comparable to a 150/152 if you ignore the "new" of it. You can buy a decent 150 for 20k or less.
 
the reason i brought up the 162's is because they aren't significantly more expensive, and i feel like a) they will not break down as much in the years i will own them and b) they will be easier to sell after 4 years. what do you think?

I assume you're right about it not breaking down as much. I would certainly hope it wouldn't. However, you might want to recheck the price of a 162. I don't happen to know the cost, but I suspect it's more than twice what you had budgeted. As Jesse noted, you can get a 152 far cheaper.

At this point no one knows whether it will be easier to sell the 162 later. But keep in mind, your plan has 2-3 other owners of the plane. After 4 years you'll want to be rid of the plane. They may have other ideas and that could cause you a lot of headaches. Just something to keep in mind.

Also, the 162 doesn't have a great useful load. That could cause problems with some larger people. Even if it's not an issue with you, it could be a deal breaker for some of your potential partners. Of course the 152 is not much better. :dunno:
 
162 goes for 112,250, which is a very decent price for a new airplane with G-300 avionics...

it actually has a pretty good useful load compared to a 152 - i was very impressed with its stats.

how much cheaper will it be to maintain and operate than a 172 you think?
 
how much cheaper will it be to maintain and operate than a 172 you think?
Not, a single engine Cessna is a single engine Cessna, the things that make a difference are the number of cylinders, does the gear go up, constant speed/fixed pitch props etc.
 
the reason i brought up the 162's is because they aren't significantly more expensive, and i feel like a) they will not break down as much in the years i will own them and b) they will be easier to sell after 4 years. what do you think?

Two thoughts:

- Ever seen a new product that didn't have "teething pains"? The 162 is bound to have various Service Bulletins out against it for the first couple of years people are flying them.

- There's not much to break on a 150/152. Simple systems, problems are pretty much very well-known. A good pre-buy inspection by a real Cessna expert should uncover any of these "well known" items.
 
oh really? i would think it would just because the longer life expectancy of parts and the lesser chances of things failing..
 
thanks guys.
so basically what is the difference between buying a well inspected 1970 172 and a 1998 172, other than the big price difference?
 
oh really? i would think it would just because the longer life expectancy of parts and the lesser chances of things failing..


In my experience while there may be some advantages to new planes the extra cost exceeds the cost of repairs to a GOOD used plane.

Good being the key word
 
thanks again. is there a guide I can read somewhere about buying single engine airplanes? i am talking about the phase before having a mechanic test it out. terms like total air frame, SMOH and compression don't really mean anything to me when I read the ads..
 
A 162 is pretty comparable to a 150/152 if you ignore the "new" of it. You can buy a decent 150 for 20k or less.

20k will buy you a pretty nice 150, I have one for sale at 11k needs a few cosmetic things but flys great.
 

Attachments

  • Dons 150.jpg
    Dons 150.jpg
    210 KB · Views: 15
  • Dons 150-1.jpg
    Dons 150-1.jpg
    211.8 KB · Views: 11
  • Dons 150-2.jpg
    Dons 150-2.jpg
    209.3 KB · Views: 12
Last edited:
thanks guys.
so basically what is the difference between buying a well inspected 1970 172 and a 1998 172, other than the big price difference?


Over the four years you plan to own it, almost nothing
 
will it be easy to sell it back after 3-4 years? how much value will it loose?
 
will it be easy to sell it back after 3-4 years? how much value will it loose?

nothing.... it's at the bottom of the market now, any improvements will add value.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top