Yet another BFR question

[cherokeeflyboy]

I recently flew with instructor to obtain a BFR. I had some misgivings to start with because he stated that "he did not rent the airplane" but charged X$ per hour for "dual. I ask why but got no good answer. I began to suspect that perhaps no 100 hr inspection, but then he could not legally instruct either.
So my assumption is insurance limitations. Upon landing after flying 1.4 hrs. I ask to see the logs for some discussion(ground time)
I was refused. No ground "instruction" no review of fars, just a hand out for payment. So I just asked that he log the time as dual. To my surprise he signed off on the BFR. To me this was not legal and now do not know how to go about removing the signoff . Should I bother? I have considered contacting the fisdo but I am not really interested in getting this guy in hot water. But........How many pilots has he given this unsatisfactory Review to? This is a requirement to keep us safe, so I am not sure what to do. Any recommendations??? KD

 

[spiderweb]

I believe (but cannot say for sure) that you can't get into trouble as long as he logged one hour of air and one of dual. If not, your "BFR" doesn't count. I'd just leave it there and get a real BFR from a competent instructor.

If you are current, seek out an instructor who will grill the crap out of you. You should prepare beforehand the academic and skill topics which give you the most trouble, and offer those to him and ask him to rake you over the coals on those areas. The BFR is to make sure you fly up to standards, but why not use it to improve?

If you are not current, find the guy or gal who will give you enough lessons to make you feel you fly at least as well as you did when you were current. I'd still go for the grilling.

I recently flew with instructor to obtain a BFR. I had some misgivings to start with because he stated that "he did not rent the airplane" but charged X$ per hour for "dual. I ask why but got no good answer. I began to suspect that perhaps no 100 hr inspection, but then he could not legally instruct either.
So my assumption is insurance limitations. Upon landing after flying 1.4 hrs. I ask to see the logs for some discussion(ground time)
I was refused. No ground "instruction" no review of fars, just a hand out for payment. So I just asked that he log the time as dual. To my surprise he signed off on the BFR. To me this was not legal and now do not know how to go about removing the signoff . Should I bother? I have considered contacting the fisdo but I am not really interested in getting this guy in hot water. But........How many pilots has he given this unsatisfactory Review to? This is a requirement to keep us safe, so I am not sure what to do. Any recommendations??? KD

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Upon landing after flying 1.4 hrs. I ask to see the logs for some discussion(ground time)
I was refused.

Refused? Or just "They aren't available right now?" Yesterday I flew with Dave G. in my Mooney. If Dave asked about my aircraft's logs he would have received a "not available" answer since they are locked in my favorite shop's office and the shop isn't open on Memorial Day.

No ground "instruction" no review of fars, just a hand out for payment.

You specifically state that there was no FAR review. Did the CFI specifically log 1.0 (or more) ground instruction in your logbook? What we have here appears to be either negligence, fraud, or a combination of both.

So I just asked that he log the time as dual. To my surprise he signed off on the BFR.

Did he log 1.0 hour (or more) of ground instruction?

To me this was not legal and now do not know how to go about removing the signoff . Should I bother?

You need three things for a legal BFR.

1. You need to complete and log atleast 1.0 hour of dual flight instruction, appropriately signed by a CFI.

2. You need to complete and log atleast 1.0 hour of ground instruction, appropriately signed by a CFI.

3. You need this certification signed and dated in your logbook:

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name), (pilot certificate), (certificate number), has satisfactorily completed a flight review of § 61.56(a) on (date).
S/S [date] J.J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-00

If you are missing any of these three elements then you don't have a legal BFR. OTOH, if you have those three elements but you didn't actually receive 1.0 hour of ground instruction then you have a fraudulent statement(s) in your logbook. The FAA can fry you and the CFI if they can prove the fraud.

Personally if I didn't receive the 1.0 hour ground and it was logged I would line out the ground training log entry (if it exists) and I would line out the BFR certification. I would then go find another CFI and get a legitimate BFR and have it properly entered into my logbook.

I have considered contacting the fisdo but I am not really interested in getting this guy in hot water. But........How many pilots has he given this unsatisfactory Review to? This is a requirement to keep us safe, so I am not sure what to do. Any recommendations??? KD

I'm sure you realize this, but just in case it isn't obvious, if you didn't receive a legitimate BFR I wouldn't fly as legal PIC after the previous BFR expires until you receive and properly log a legitimate BFR.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

You need three things for a legal BFR.

1. You need to complete and log atat least.0 hour of dual flight instruction, appropriately signed by a CFI.

2. You need to complete and log atleast 1.0 hour of ground instruction, appropriately signed by a CFI.

3. You need this certification signed and dated in your logbook:

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name), (pilot certificate), (certificate number), has satisfactorily completed a flight review of § 61.56(a) on (date).
S/S [date] J.J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-00

Yes one hr of ground and flight is logged. That is the problem I am having, knowing that we had no ground instruction makes this "BFR" not legal.
What to do about it. I will be scheduling another ride for sure, Wings covers ME legally to fly PIC. With your log book a legal document, I would wonder if you can alter or even strike any entries. Perhaps a consult with an aviation attorney is in order. My last choice for sure, but I Just want to cover my butt.

 

[MSmith]

There's nothing that says that you can't do another BFR a week later. That way, if the first one is questioned, you're good.

It would seem to me that this instructor is on the hook for his BFR endorsement. You would only be on the hook if you fly PIC using that endorsement (rather than a newer one).

 

[poadeleted20]

This is a real tough situation.

First, if the instructor put all the right words in your log, including the 1.4 hours of flight training, at least an hour of ground training, and the full flight review endorsement, and signed them all, then unless you spill your guts to the local FSDO, you're legal to fly for another 24 months since the required documentation is there and the FAA doesn't know you didn't get what he said you did.

Second, I hear you saying the instructor has made a false entry in your log, but only the two of you know about it. If you go to the FSDO, I guarantee that when they ask him, he'll say that along with the 1.4 flying time, you got the full 1-hour ground session covering all the right stuff, and that you're lying if you said otherwise. Now it's "he said, she said," and they FAA has no way of knowing who's lying. Usually when that happens, it's a question of motivation, and folks generally wonder about the motivation of someone who complains about what appears to be a truly free lunch.

Third, on the airplane, if he "provided" it (note you can "provide" the plane without "owning" the plane) as well as the instruction, then it does need a 100-hour inspection. If he won't show you the logs, and wrote you a receipt for training services only without rental, then it is likely the plane does not have a current 100-hour, and on that one, the documentation can't be doctored by the instructor. If you take this to the FSDO, they should have an open-and-shut case. Since 91.409(b) references only the person providing the instruction, there is no case against you for flying the plane without a 100-hour, so you're not putting yourself at risk if you complain about that.

Finally, you're a regular here, and it sounds like you read up pretty well on the rules and regs, so I don't think there's much he might have covered that hasn't been covered here (or on the AOPA Board from whence most of us came). Therefore, I suspect you're as knowledgeable as you would have been had he done the hour of ground, and maybe more so, considering his apparently lackadaisical attitude towards the regs.

All in all, I'd ask you if YOU feel safe for another two years, and if so, to let the matter drop as regards your logbook. However, this cat sounds like he's a danger to the rest of us, especially since his disease spreads via infection of those who take training from him, and I'd like to see that stopped. I'm trying to get some advice from better sources on how to proceed. If you want to email me off line at rblevy-at-mindsping-dot-com, we can discuss that further.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

With your log book a legal document, I would wonder if you can alter or even strike any entries.

Yes, it is perfectly acceptable. It is your logbook. Your only concern is that someone could at some future time claim that you used those fraudulent items as proof of currency or in application for a future rating. A line out preserves the record but also unequivocally states that you do not wish those items to be offered as either experience for a further rating or currency. Those are the issues you want covered.

 

[bbchien]

this cat sounds like he's a danger to the rest of us, especially since his disease spreads via infection of those who take training from him, and I'd like to see that stopped.

I'd go get a real BFR so that you are not in any way on the hook. Then, I copy the entry you describe and add narrative, send it to the FSDO. I know, I know I hate turning people in, but this is just too much.

Sigh.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

All in all, I'd ask you if YOU feel safe for another two years, and if so, to let the matter drop as regards your logbook. However, this cat sounds like he's a danger to the rest of us, especially since his disease spreads via infection of those who take training from him, and I'd like to see that stopped. I'm trying to get some advice from better sources on how to proceed. If you want to email me off line at rblevy-at-mindsping-dot-com, we can discuss that further.

Somehow the thought of leaving the fraud in my logbook while blowing a whistle to the FSDO sounds a lot like juggling a loaded gun... If I opted to leave the offending entry in my logbook the last thing I would do is call attention to any portion of the situation. It would be just my luck that I raise the 100-hour inspection issue to the FSDO, the FSDO starts a fishing expedition interview with the CFI regarding the flight training/BFR event, and the fool CFI cops to the missing ground instruction rather than the missing 100-hour inspection. Meanwhile I've logged a few dozen flights as legal PIC based on the fraudulent BFR...

Stranger things have happened.

Nooo thank you. IMO, either:

(a) line it all out, repeat, and call the FSDO if you choose, or,
(b) leave it all in place and go about your business and pray the FSDO doesn't somehow decide the CFI has a history of bogus BFRs.

I would not suggest doing a mixed bag shopping, taking a few items from both (a) and (b). Pick a list and stick with it.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The CFI is clearly in violation of at least two rules. I would be concerned that if he is investigated for any reason (the lack of 100hr inspections could be caught if he gets a ramp inspection at inopportune moment, or maybe a future employer is suspicious about his log records) the FAA is going to look at his logbook to see who he's given instruction to, and then go talk to them.

Problem is, if you line out the BFR and go for another one, what are you going to tell the FAA, or even the next CFI , if they come knocking? "Hmm, yeah, I thought something wasn't right, so I lined-out the BFR and went for a new one." Ok, but why didn't you report this to the FAA? they might well ask.... How do you answer that?

For the more FAA-legal knowledgeable folks: Do we, as pilots, have a legal obligation to report if a CFI puts an illegal entry in our log (not merely nullify it, but in fact report it)? Could the FAA take any action against someone who was involved financially with this CFI and knew he was in violation of the FARs, even if that person didn't appear to violate a FAR themselves?

Jeff

 

[poadeleted20]

The CFI is clearly in violation of at least two rules. I would be concerned that if he is investigated for any reason (the lack of 100hr inspections could be caught if he gets a ramp inspection at inopportune moment, or maybe a future employer is suspicious about his log records) the FAA is going to look at his logbook to see who he's given instruction to, and then go talk to them.

Problem is, if you line out the BFR and go for another one, what are you going to tell the FAA, or even the next CFI , if they come knocking? "Hmm, yeah, I thought something wasn't right, so I lined-out the BFR and went for a new one." Ok, but why didn't you report this to the FAA? they might well ask.... How do you answer that?

"He gave me the training he says he did." Who's to argue? The CFI? "That's right, inspector, I gave KD a flight review endorsement without giving all the required training, and signed for an hour of ground training I never gave him. And if he says I didn't break the law, he's lying." Sure, in that case, the ALJ would find the instructor's "statement against penal interest" compelling, but much as the DEA doesn't deal with dealers to nail their customers, I've never heard of the FAA plea bargaining with bent instructors to nail their students -- it's usually the other way around.

For the more FAA-legal knowledgeable folks: Do we, as pilots, have a legal obligation to report if a CFI puts an illegal entry in our log (not merely nullify it, but in fact report it)?

FAR's are regulations, not criminal law. While failing to report a criminal act can be a crime ("misprison of a felony" -- see http://www.kmhimmigration.com/felonies.htm for a fuller discussion), there is no such law requiring anyone to report FAR violations. The obligation to report folks who break the FAR's is moral, and one of self-interest (FAR-busters end up costing us higher insurance premiums, more restrictive rules, and more trouble with our airport neighbors), not legal.

Could the FAA take any action against someone who was involved financially with this CFI and knew he was in violation of the FARs, even if that person didn't appear to violate a FAR themselves?

Not sure what you mean "involved financially." The FAA has acted against non-certificate holders involved in illegal charter flights for handling the money or making the arrangements, so if KD paid an FBO for the training, and the FBO knew the training wasn't given, they could be wrapped up in it, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

All in all, what I hope KD does is line out the offending entries (endorsement and ground training), officially report the whole matter to the FSDO, and get another full flight review from a CFI who deserves the title. But if KD elects not to make that official report, he is probably best served by doing nothing and saying nothing, since he can "prove" that he's had a flight review, the FAA would start asking difficult questions about the line-outs, and it would not be in the CFI's interest to say anything against KD. Having discussed this with the right people, I can say for sure that unless KD makes an official complaint, the FSDO can do nothing at all -- not even keep an extra eye on the CFI.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Not sure what you mean "involved financially."

I was referring to someone who actually paid money to the CFI, not merely knew of improper instruction. I was also thinking of the seemingly "unofficial" airplane rental for instruction purpose w/o a 100hr inspection.

I'm with Ron on this, if it were me, I'd line it out in my logbook and report the whole matter to the FSDO. How would I feel if a few months down the road there is an accident involving someone who this CFI gave a paper sign-off to and someone gets hurt? Preventable? Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't want it on my conscience. GA is too much of an endangered species as it is to let stuff like this go on unreported. I hope I never have to deal with this kind of shady operator.

Jeff

 

[gismo]

"He gave me the training he says he did." Who's to argue?

It does seem to me that if KD leaves the properly written but undeserved endorsement in his log, he could be placing himself in a position where he would have to chose between lying to the FAA or admitting to a violation (assuming he flies as PIC more than 24 months past the previous BFR).

Let's say that this CFI does the same thing for another savvy pilot and that pilot does report the incident to the FSDO. Then in a follow up, the FAA questions each BFR recipient of that CFI as to the content of their BFR. That doesn't sound like any place I'd want to be. For that reason alone, I'd at least go for another (proper) BFR whether or not I deleted the bad one or reported anything to the FAA.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Re: Yet another BFR question update

Thanks for the advice all.
I just got off the phone with **** **** of the FAA@ FSDO.
I have really stirred up a can of worms!!
After telling this guy my story (no names, just places yet) he ask me this CFI is not **** ********(names withheld ) is it? I replied yes. how did you know? Seems that a "ride" is scheduled soon. No reason was offered but by his questions to me would suggest that the FAA is aware of past transgressions. Now he wants to come to me to see my log book and "interview" me. That's happening day after tomorrow. He also told me if what I say is provable, he is going to do all that is possible to pull his ticket. WOW! This is NOT what I set out to do but Ron convinced me that making a report to the FAA is the prudent thing to do . I could not live with my self if in the future there was an "event" that might have been prevented by stopping this guy. I'll keep all posted...........KD

 

[poadeleted3]

Re: Yet another BFR question update

Thanks for the advice all.
I just got off the phone with **** **** of the FAA@ FSDO.
I have really stirred up a can of worms!!
After telling this guy my story (no names, just places yet) he ask me this CFI is not **** ********(names withheld ) is it? I replied yes. how did you know? Seems that a "ride" is scheduled soon. No reason was offered but by his questions to me would suggest that the FAA is aware of past transgressions. Now he wants to come to me to see my log book and "interview" me. That's happening day after tomorrow. He also told me if what I say is provable, he is going to do all that is possible to pull his ticket. WOW! This is NOT what I set out to do but Ron convinced me that making a report to the FAA is the prudent thing to do . I could not live with my self if in the future there was an "event" that might have been prevented by stopping this guy. I'll keep all posted...........KD

Good. Flight instructors hold a life and death responsibility, and it doesn't sound to me like this one takes it seriously. Some things shouldn't be pencil whipped, and the BFR is one of them. Besides, who knows what else he is scamming on? What is he teaching his primary students? I had an instructor like this when I first started. guy had me climbing and descending through clouds, telling me it was just fine in Class G. Didn't take long to decide that wasn't really the world's best idea. If I'd known then what I know now, a call to the FSDO would certainly have been in order then, too.

I wonder if Jim Schaefer got his BFR, assuming he had one, from a similar instructor?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

KD,

Good for you for doing the "right" thing. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but you should definitely feel better knowing you're doing your part to protect others.

Jeff

 

[michael Killacky]

KD,

You really did the right thing. Nobody wants to blow someone in, especially when they did you a "favor". In the whole scheme of things, though, this guy didn't do any of us any favors and I personally would like to thank you for keeping ME a little safer.

 

[sere]

Again good for you. You know you did the right thing. Don't feel bad about turning him in. He did it to himself.

 

[jdwatson]

KD,
Hang tough. The weird wheels of justice are turning. For doing the right thing, I hope you don't get kicked in the butt. You're a hero to us out here nonetheless.

Some of the hardest things I've done my life have come under that category of "the right thing". Unfortunately, most of the time "the right thing" was not the most pleasant, easy or even satisfying thing I could have done. I wish "the right thing" really meant "let sleeping dogs lie"... that's what 99% of the world wants.

Best of luck KD.

 

[gismo]

KD,
Hang tough. The weird wheels of justice are turning. For doing the right thing, I hope you don't get kicked in the butt. You're a hero to us out here nonetheless.

Some of the hardest things I've done my life have come under that category of "the right thing". Unfortunately, most of the time "the right thing" was not the most pleasant, easy or even satisfying thing I could have done. I wish "the right thing" really meant "let sleeping dogs lie"... that's what 99% of the world wants.

It's been said that when faced with a tough decision, picking the hardest choice is usually the correct one.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Yet another BFR question update

Good on ya, KD! You've helped to be part of the solution, and that's good for all of us.

Interesting that you weren't the first to say something. Also, given what's happening, you may be sure that everyone whose name is in this cat's logbook as having received training from him is going to be "invited" for an interview, and those who knew they didn't get the proper training are going to be in for some additional attention. Finally, you've made yourself one of those whom the FSDO knows to have a "positive safety attitude," which can work in your favor the next time you make an accidental and minor transgression -- that's often the difference between something being written up versus, "Now, KD, y'know that ain't right -- now fix it up and go and sin no more."

 

[Gary]

KD:

My utmost respect for your decision, that was a tough one. I think you did the right thing even if it causes further aggravation down the line.

It also occurs to me that this thread is an excellent example of why this board is so useful, a good range of different opinions on an issue that doesn't have a clear cut answer.

BTW - is the FSDO in the Wildwood NJ area Phila or Atlantic City?

Gary

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Thanks for all the support. Yesterday I met with the inspector. He took a couple of pics of my logbook entries and tape recorded a 'interview", more like a cross exam if you ask me. Thank goodness I participate in the FAA's Wings Program. This is going to cover me for the time being. (Going to get a REAL BFR as well). He seemed to be looking for anything to find ME in violation of FARS. Even taking the time to go over my pre checkride entires to verify I had all of the requirements and proper endorsements. Dating back to 1995!! At this point I begun to suspect that I was the one being investigated. Later he explained that it is very unusual for my kind of situation to be reported. He questioned my reasons for contacting him and just what I expected to happen. How do You answer that? I don't have any background info on this CFII so how should I know if remedial training or a ride or getting his ticket pulled is the answer or for that matter a non issue because I am sure that he would state that the ground training did occur. This must have satisfied him. All of a sudden he acts like he is my best friend. Tape recorder put away he tells me CFII is scheduled for a ride because his last 2 instrument students did not even get past the oral. Seems he has gained a rep of being "dangerous" what ever that covers.
Bfr and all stricken from the log with both our signatures. solves the question I had to begin with. Can I strike an entry?
Not a fun way to spend a afternoon. And I don't feel good about the fact that now
There is a FAA inspector after a guys ticket(s).
One important lesson learned. I will never take a restroom break while CFI signs my log. If I were present, when he flipped to the back, I would have stopped him then and there..............KD

 

[sere]

Thanks for all the support. Yesterday I met with the inspector. He took a couple of pics of my logbook entries and tape recorded a 'interview", more like a cross exam if you ask me. Thank goodness I participate in the FAA's Wings Program. This is going to cover me for the time being. (Going to get a REAL BFR as well). He seemed to be looking for anything to find ME in violation of FARS. Even taking the time to go over my pre checkride entires to verify I had all of the requirements and proper endorsements. Dating back to 1995!! At this point I begun to suspect that I was the one being investigated. Later he explained that it is very unusual for my kind of situation to be reported. He questioned my reasons for contacting him and just what I expected to happen. How do You answer that? I don't have any background info on this CFII so how should I know if remedial training or a ride or getting his ticket pulled is the answer or for that matter a non issue because I am sure that he would state that the ground training did occur. This must have satisfied him. All of a sudden he acts like he is my best friend. Tape recorder put away he tells me CFII is scheduled for a ride because his last 2 instrument students did not even get past the oral. Seems he has gained a rep of being "dangerous" what ever that covers.
Bfr and all stricken from the log with both our signatures. solves the question I had to begin with. Can I strike an entry?
Not a fun way to spend a afternoon. And I don't feel good about the fact that now
There is a FAA inspector after a guys ticket(s).
One important lesson learned. I will never take a restroom break while CFI signs my log. If I were present, when he flipped to the back, I would have stopped him then and there..............KD

It is far better that he is after that guys ticket than after yours. I am sure he had to be all business during the initial interview and also needed to determine the reason why you turned the CFI in. Sounds like he was satisfied with your answers. Again I take my hat off to you.