WSJ editorial in favor of private ATC

roncachamp said:
I think you're wrong about the mail.
Click to expand...

My post office box is cheap and does exactly what it's sposed to do, things I ship with USPS arrived intact, don't cost too much to ship and may not be the fastest but are on time, I don't even bother to pay for UPS anymore as I can break my packages for free myself, and FedEx is a little spendy and ether is very fast, or ends up slower than USPS.
 
Guatemala, where my brother lives, had a private mail service for awhile. After a recession it went belly up, and now there is no mail there.
 
James331 said:
My post office box is cheap and does exactly what it's sposed to do, things I ship with USPS arrived intact, don't cost too much to ship and may not be the fastest but are on time, I don't even bother to pay for UPS anymore as I can break my packages for free myself, and FedEx is a little spendy and ether is very fast, or ends up slower than USPS.
Click to expand...

IME FedEx outperforms USPS.
 
zaitcev said:
At any talk of a cut, they keep the ATC hostage and cut it first, while preserving all the bureaucrats in leather chairs. Thus, it is paramount to divorce FAA and ATC.
Click to expand...
You do realize that the FAA's budget is 0.003% of the federal budget right? Paramount seems to be a big word and is the couple thousandths of a percentage point really worth dismantling the worlds best Air Traffic System?

I generally agree in smaller government and the private sector doing things better. I just don't feel that is an all inclusive idea, especially when it comes to ATC.
 
Radar Contact said:
You do realize that the FAA's budget is 0.003% of the federal budget right? Paramount seems to be a big word and is the couple thousandths of a percentage point really worth dismantling the worlds best Air Traffic System?

I generally agree in smaller government and the private sector doing things better. I just don't feel that is an all inclusive idea, especially when it comes to ATC.
Click to expand...

^ That
 
To me privatization means putting the system into the hands of the free market and allowing it to be self-funding. Otherwise I feel like it is just a budgetary shell game that puts money into some other crony's pocket.

In this case privatization just means the money spent on ATC will go to a private entity and not reducing government. Any money saved will be funneled into some other pork barrel project or over bloated agency. You won't see an impact on the size of government and you won't see a reduction in government spending or taxes.
 
roncachamp said:
IME FedEx outperforms USPS.
Click to expand...

Except FedEx relies on USPS for "last mile" delivery in a lot of areas.

There is also that little detail the the Post Office is a Constitutionally-established responsibility of the Congress.
 
murphey said:
How's the Post Office and Amtrak working out for you?
Click to expand...

Neither of these are examples of truly free markets; rather they are government subsidized corporations.

The post office has an outright legal monopoly on the delivery of first class mail.

Passenger trains, while I personally enjoy them, just don’t seem like an economically viable proposition on much of the country.

Of course it is a bit hard to say, since virtually every major form of transportation, trains, highways, airlines, have had major government subsidies along the way.
 
Stewartb said:
I’m a big fan of reducing government. Anything government can do, private industry can do better.
Click to expand...

Just curious, does that include privatizing the military in your opinion? Police? Firefighters? Snowplow services? I think some things are undeniably better off run by the government. Maybe you didn't intend to include such essential services. Not being snarky, just curious.
 
woodchucker said:
Just curious, does that include privatizing the military in your opinion? Police? Firefighters? Snowplow services? I think some things are undeniably better off run by the government. Maybe you didn't intend to include such essential services. Not being snarky, just curious.
Click to expand...

Vast majority of police work is traffic tickets and drunken fights. Not all that hard to privatize.

Firefighters, your city slicker is showing. About 80% of all jurisdictions are volunteer, by land coverage. Only cities “enjoy” paid fire services.

Snowplows? Vast majority of them around here are private, people just think they’re mostly government because they see those on the roads. Private snow removal moves far more snow than government does.

In other words, check your assumptions that those are “government” services. The police stuff is, but realistically all they do anymore is show up and write a report for the insurance companies for the vast majority of calls. Some jurisdictions have taken to having you just fill out your own “police” report online for your insurer. They don’t even bother sending out an Officer. I’ve filled out three for myself, no Officer reviews them, nothing. Just fill out an online form, it spits out a PDF that says the PD issued it.
 
denverpilot said:
Vast majority of police work is traffic tickets and drunken fights. Not all that hard to privatize.

Firefighters, your city slicker is showing. About 80% of all jurisdictions are volunteer, by land coverage. Only cities “enjoy” paid fire services.

Snowplows? Vast majority of them around here are private, people just think they’re mostly government because they see those on the roads. Private snow removal moves far more snow than government does.

In other words, check your assumptions that those are “government” services. The police stuff is, but realistically all they do anymore is show up and write a report for the insurance companies for the vast majority of calls. Some jurisdictions have taken to having you just fill out your own “police” report online for your insurer. They don’t even bother sending out an Officer. I’ve filled out three for myself, no Officer reviews them, nothing. Just fill out an online form, it spits out a PDF that says the PD issued it.
Click to expand...
I'd rather not privatize the PD. It isn't difficult to look up the abuses from those cities where private companies run the red light camera/ticketing schemes. After people start obeying the law, they mess with the light timing so it is impossible to stop before the light is red to keep their profits.

Some things in government should be privatized, but ATC shouldn't be one of those things. We actually do ATC right the very vast majority of the time.
 
denverpilot said:
Vast majority of police work is traffic tickets and drunken fights. Not all that hard to privatize.
Click to expand...

Yep, replace 'em with cameras. Much more efficient at revenue collection.
Firefighters, your city slicker is showing. About 80% of all jurisdictions are volunteer, by land coverage. Only cities “enjoy” paid fire services.
Click to expand...
Not just cities, but a lot of places have a hard time getting enough volunteers. From people who work too much to traffic woes to folks more interested in being online than being on the fire line, getting volunteers is getting tougher in many places.

Snowplows? Vast majority of them around here are private, people just think they’re mostly government because they see those on the roads. Private snow removal moves far more snow than government does.
Click to expand...

And runs up the bill considerably. Around here, the state does the arterials on it's own and hires contractors for secondary. Two of the DOT supervisors and three companies recently pled guilty to bribery in connection with a $10.3 million contract.

When I was a kid, our streets in the DC metro were rarely plowed, and if they were it was well after the main streets were plowed.
In other words, check your assumptions that those are “government” services. The police stuff is, but realistically all they do anymore is show up and write a report for the insurance companies for the vast majority of calls. Some jurisdictions have taken to having you just fill out your own “police” report online for your insurer. They don’t even bother sending out an Officer. I’ve filled out three for myself, no Officer reviews them, nothing. Just fill out an online form, it spits out a PDF that says the PD issued it.
Click to expand...

Yep, and some of them even ignore tips that could be used to prevent crime. All you see on TV about fingerprinting and tracking down the bad guys doesn't happen in real life except for high-profile crimes. Simply not enough staff. You want to protect your home? Protect it yourself. Those who do will find themselves being investigated if they happen to shoot a crook.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'd rather not privatize the PD. It isn't difficult to look up the abuses from those cities where private companies run the red light camera/ticketing schemes. After people start obeying the law, they mess with the light timing so it is impossible to stop before the light is red to keep their profits.

Some things in government should be privatized, but ATC shouldn't be one of those things. We actually do ATC right the very vast majority of the time.
Click to expand...

Pretty easy to find PD abuses also, but often the dollar amount (even though the taxpayer picks up that bill) is sealed. Anything where someone has power over another will always be abused. PD aren’t immune.

Hell, most traffic stops are abuses. The assumption that 5 MPH over is actually a safety issue of any sort, is vastly debatable in most cases. Empty road, driver doing 5 over? Who cares, in reality.

But the justification for the ticket and the revenue and all of the jobs from the security guard at the courthouse entrance steps to the judge sitting behind the bench and every lawyer involved, is that it was all for some sort of “safety” purpose.

It wasn’t. It’s just a machine designed to operate forever on bureaucracy.

ATC *will* be able to be replaced by tech in the not too distant future. Nobody will want to PAY for it, that’s a different story, but we’ve already done TCAS with resolutions for decades and that tech isn’t modernized and it does pretty well.

The remote tower at FNL is supposedly opening this year. That’ll be interesting. The powers that be wrote another “oooh, ahhhh” article about it in the Colorado Aeronautics monthly newsletter again this month.

Once programmed correctly, barring system failures, the computers really can fly the airplanes better than the humans. Tie them to a traffic system that’s properly built and designed (might take a while, or multiple attempts) and they’ll sequence themselves into whatever flow you program into the computer, too.

It’s coming. Not right away, but it’s coming. It’s just more expensive than the humans still right now. It won’t be eventually. The humans will just sit and monitor it.
 
roncachamp said:
IME FedEx outperforms USPS.
Click to expand...
And yet FedEx is not legally required to deliver to every address in the country six days a week, and it doesn't. Not even close. Much of the efficiency of the private delivery services is the lack of constraints placed on the USPS.
 
Lindberg said:
And yet FedEx is not legally required to deliver to every address in the country six days a week, and it doesn't. Not even close. Much of the efficiency of the private delivery services is the lack of constraints placed on the USPS.
Click to expand...

You're saying if FedEx was subject to more government regulation the quality of service would decline and costs would rise. You're right.
 
Go to your local FedEx or UPS location and drop 50 cents on the counter and see what kind of service you get. The problem with comparing private package delivery services and the post office is that they aren't even remotely in the same business.

Where there's a good comparison is with privitized ATC is that there's a fear that private ATC will focus, favor and/or abandon less concerning markets like GA.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Go to your local FedEx or UPS location and drop 50 cents on the counter and see what kind of service you get. The problem with comparing private package delivery services and the post office is that they aren't even remotely in the same business.
Click to expand...

I've found that where the USPS competes with FedEx or UPS the latter two outperform the USPS. While most of the stuff the USPS delivers to me goes directly into the recycling bin I can't recall FedEx or UPS ever bringing me anything I didn't want.

Where there's a good comparison is with privitized ATC is that there's a fear that private ATC will focus, favor and/or abandon less concerning markets like GA.
Click to expand...

Where do you feel there's a good comparison to privatized ATC?
 
Canada has a Privatized ATC system. Maybe we should see what the GA guys up there think of their system?

Are you cats thinking that if the US goes to "ATC Inc" that towers at smaller airports will no longer be supported?
 
An exemption from user fees is a good start. I think it would be run more efficiently if privatized, I do worry about the airlines getting too much influence but I don't see how it would be any different than now. In case you haven't noticed, politicians are not immune to lobbying efforts, and the airlines have deep pockets.

ATC does work fine and so did/does NASA. But now you've got SpaceX launching rockets for pennies on the dollar so it makes you wonder what NASA was spending all that money on.
 
Last edited:
dell30rb said:
...it makes you wonder what NASA was spending all that money on.
Click to expand...

Government procurement policies are not designed to yield best value solutions. There's a lot of pork and overhead in there.
 
The biggest problem any government agency has is unstable funding. They never know what is going to be appropriated or when it will be available. Try running anything when you have no idea what will be deposited in your bank account and whatever it is, when it will show up.

Congress only has one main job and that is to establish a budget and pass appropriations according to a defined schedule. They haven’t done that since it least the early 70’s. Democrats or Republicans, makes no difference.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
The biggest problem any government agency has is unstable funding. They never know what is going to be appropriated or when it will be available. Try running anything when you have no idea what will be deposited in your bank account and whatever it is, when it will show up.
Click to expand...

Private business is just as, if not significantly more volatile.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Where there's a good comparison is with privitized ATC is that there's a fear that private ATC will focus, favor and/or abandon less concerning markets like GA.
Click to expand...

And how would that work?

“Hey Airliner 101, there’s a GA plane about to hit you, but we’ve “abandoned” GA, so nevermind.”

Sounds like a really far fetched “fear” if you ask me. ATC keeps us “Indians” in “Indian country” away from the precious airliners and cargo liners.

Many of us fly out of uncontrolled airports that were “abandoned” by ATC long ago. As in, never had any.

ATC virtually ignores GA already around places like ORD and LAS. Go away, go around.

I don’t see any of that changing no matter who pays the bills.

Does anyone else really think that, or is it just a strange “talking point” made up to induce fears about things that already happen today?

I see that silly statement from a lot of people, not just you, so I’m not singling you out in this logic question.

What would be the outcome of ATC “abandoning” GA? They pack up and leave any Delta that doesn’t have a certain number of rich people flying in on jets? I mean, seriously.
 
dell30rb said:
Private business is just as, if not significantly more volatile.
Click to expand...

It’s not volatile in govt, just completely uncertain what the hell is going to happen for 6 months or more from when a decision should have been made on what is the funding for the next 12 months (or less).

It was a major miracle the recent budget that passed was alleged to be for two years (more like 18 months). If that holds, pigs really fly:confused:.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
It’s not volatile in govt, just completely uncertain what the hell is going to happen for 6 months or more from when a decision should have been made on what is the funding for the next 12 months (or less).

It was a major miracle the recent budget that passed was alleged to be for two years (more like 18 months). If that holds, pigs really fly:confused:.

Cheers
Click to expand...

That’s called “every month” in the private sector.

I’ve never figured out what the big deal is about planning like the money will eventually show up in the public sector. I mean, sure... don’t publish the silly internal budget and plan if you’re a bureaucrat in leadership roles.

Just keep it in Excel on your local hard drive and 99% of the time, it’ll end up being true to the actual money that shows up and you’ll do all the stuff on your little private list that you keep.

Am I missing something? Because I’m pretty used to the private sector and small companies where the money doesn’t always show up, ever. And that’s a lot more of a problem than anything I’ve ever seen government friends deal with.

“Oh no. You had to WAIT three months to do your project paid for with massive debt? My gosh man, how will you ever survive it?” LOL.

Let me know when their investors call in the loans and they have to lay off 400 of 500 staff in a single day. BTDT have the t-shirt. I was in the 400 after telling my staff we were all gone in seven days, nobody needed to come into the office for the next week, and there wasn’t any money beyond a two week severance for everyone. Go home, call recruiters, we’re done forever here. Bye guys. Here’s my number and email. Let’s keep in touch.

I kinda laugh when government friends whine that they had to delay their massive Microsoft Exchange upgrade. A massive system and upgrade path no place I’ve ever worked could afford. For a tiny number of staff compared to places I’ve built email systems for out of free software and literally scrounged hardware from the scrap heap in a closet.

Kept an email system for 3000 staff members going on cast off hardware from the Winderz kids in the next cubical over. Helped the company see fit to pay me about 1/10th of what a commercial email system would have cost them. Nice paychecks. Probably kept that place from having to worry about loans being called in, too... and me from having to tell staff that we were gone and to pack up our crap.

The one thing I do have “the feels” for my government IT management friends is the poppycock they put up with from staff who’d be fired immediately at anyplace I’ve ever worked at. They can’t touch some of their untouchable staff. The staff can flat out lie to them and then disappear on whatever sort of leave or whatever and they can’t do a damn thing about it. The stories of that are truly incredible. I’d have any of them marched out the door and shipped their personal effects to them Fedex the next day.
 
ironnerd said:
Canada has a Privatized ATC system. Maybe we should see what the GA guys up there think of their system?
Click to expand...

So what were the problems in Canada's ATC system that were corrected by privatization?
 
Walboy said:
Of course these are the same airlines that have dramatically cut service to small towns, which are responsible for the vast majority of their own flight delays and whose consumer treatment prompts one eye-popping news story after another.

...
Mark Baker
President and CEO
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association

Ed Bolen
President and CEO
National Business Aviation Association
Washington
Click to expand...

That seems disingenuous on AOPA’s part. The airlines provide service to rural areas under a massive government subsidy anyway. The routes aren’t profitable in any large commercial aircraft.

And NBAA? They’re the ones flying to uncontrolled airports with local billionaires on board. They’re already ignored in the rural areas by ATC.

I’d love to know which of their members they’re supposedly representing with this. Seems like they’re not. NBAA benefits from weaker airline service to rural areas. They’re not harmed by it.

And their interaction with ATC is already “cleared for the approach, Radar Service terminated, cancel this frequency or I have a phone number for you if it’ll be on the ground...” already. What service do they think they’ll be losing? LOL.
 
roncachamp said:
Go read up on it for yourself there, padawan.
Click to expand...

Ohh... you're that guy... I guess my days of not taking you seriously have gotten off to a wonderful start.

I don't think the ATC system in the U.S. is as good as it can be, and I'm not a "big government" guy, but I do think that certain things should be left to Big Brother. I can't say I support the plan to privatize Air Traffic Control.
 
The system would certainly benefit from new technology under a privatization.
 
ironnerd said:
I don't think the ATC system in the U.S. is as good as it can be, and I'm not a "big government" guy, but I do think that certain things should be left to Big Brother. I can't say I support the plan to privatize Air Traffic Control.
Click to expand...

Where do you feel the US ATC system is deficient?
 
roncachamp said:
Where do you feel the US ATC system is deficient?
Click to expand...
@roncachamp ... I'm not playing your game, Bro. If you think the current system is perfect, then I am glad you are happy.

Like I said, the days of my not taking you seriously have just begun.
 
ironnerd said:
@roncachamp ... I'm not playing your game, Bro. If you think the current system is perfect, then I am glad you are happy.

Like I said, the days of my not taking you seriously have just begun.
Click to expand...

Reasoned discourse is not a game to me. I said nothing about the current US ATC system, but you said you don't think it is as good as it can be. Asking you to identify where you feel the system is deficient is a legitimate question that you should be willing to answer. That's what this forum is for.
 
roncachamp said:
Where do you feel the US ATC system is deficient?
Click to expand...

NOTAMs are a disaster. ADS-Bs underlying data link tech and security is already twenty years outdated. Far too many Towers don’t yet have the equivalent of a D-BRITE and even less can see ADS-B data yet from that already outdated system. “Freeflight” direct routings with automatic traffic separation still hasn’t actually occurred anywhere yet.

roncachamp said:
Where would the system benefit from new technology?
Click to expand...

Correctly done data would have higher quality weather, and enough bandwidth not to limit traffic to a “hockey puck”, plus likely have enough bandwidth to do text clearances direct into avionics and two way comm via data stream instead of A.M. radios.

An ATC clearance and reroutes in the IFR world should be a button click by now.

Granted, most of what keeps that from happening is the avionics certification process and not anything the controllers are doing wrong, if the tech were used as fast as well as it’s implemented in other endeavors, I wouldn’t be talking to controllers at all by now for IFR flights after “cleared for takeoff” until “cleared to land”.

You asked.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top