WSJ discovers Light Aircraft and LSA

CT4ME

CT4ME

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Had lunch with my brother who has never been interested in Aviation and the topic of discussion was this article...strangely interested after reading it and particularly interested because of the A5...I have been rated Aviator for 30+ years and he has never shown an interest in aviation. He is an educated professional and actually a Federal Judge, it sort of shocked me as I had not read it prior to this.
 
The Icon is a very, very cool aircraft.

Until it gains a wee bit of speed, however, it isn't worth much as transportation. I can't see myself puttering along at 90. That would eliminate 80% of our flying destinations, which are, by necessity, all day-trips.
 
I was excited to see the article in my morning WSJ, but after I read it, I thought it was pretty weak. The sidebar list that compared commercial vs. flying yourself was just silly fluff.
 
I know tons of people who might have been "interested" in learning to fly, until they saw the cost of getting their ticket. Then they saw the cost of new aircraft. That's where they lost interest. A $200K+ jet ski has the novelty at the moment, but in a few years I doubt any major impact to GA will be felt. It's just economics.
 
I would consider the Icon a practical aircraft for a limited mission. Just not at its present price.
 
The Icon was never intended to be a cross country heavy load carrying speed demon. Why do some people keep talking about what it can't do when it was not designed to do that? Talk about what it was designed to do and whether it does that well or not.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The Icon is a very, very cool aircraft.

Until it gains a wee bit of speed, however, it isn't worth much as transportation. I can't see myself puttering along at 90. That would eliminate 80% of our flying destinations, which are, by necessity, all day-trips.
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You should be able to see yourself puttering at 90. You used to own an Ercoupe. You had fun in that back then didn't you? Was it transportation or not?
 
Dav8or said:
You should be able to see yourself puttering at 90. You used to own an Ercoupe. You had fun in that back then didn't you? Was it transportation or not?
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Owning an Ercoupe in Iowa, primarily for our kids to fly, was fun. We flew it regularly, too, just because it was cheap, easy, and a real gas.

In Texas, an Ercoupe would make little sense. Our mission here is to be able to escape the island for a few hours, and then return to work the evening shift. In order to do this, we need enough speed to make it to the major metropolitan areas in about an hour. The RV gives us this:

Houston: 1 hour
San Antonio: 1 Hour
Galveston: 1 Hour
McAllen/Brownsville: 1 Hour
Austin: 65 minutes
Dallas/Ft. Worth: 2 hours

I was truly excited by the Icon, with its corrosion - free fuselage and ability to land in the water, something we have more of than land! It would be my perfect airplane, replacing the RV -- except for that ridiculous cruise speed.

If they could get cruise up to 120, I'd consider it. Even at that, we wouldn't be able to do about 40% of the flights we make in the RV, due to time constraints.

At 80, it's nothing but a toy.
 
Jay Honeck said:
At 80, it's nothing but a toy.
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Just like an Ercoupe. Plenty of people find them worth owning. The vast majority, (if I had to guess likely about 80%) of GA planes are just toys, my own included. Very few people need them, or make money with them, they just want them and enjoy playing with them. Once a year time saving trips to Grandma's house, weekend getaways, etc are more just rationalizations for the huge expense than anything else.
 
Dav8or said:
You should be able to see yourself puttering at 90. You used to own an Ercoupe. You had fun in that back then didn't you? Was it transportation or not?
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My Sky Arrow cruises around 95k.

Still got Karen and I to Page, AZ and back in fine style.

And it was fun!

Looking forward to an Indiana trip soon if we get some decent weather.
 
FastEddieB said:
My Sky Arrow cruises around 95k.

Still got Karen and I to Page, AZ and back in fine style.

And it was fun!

Looking forward to an Indiana trip soon if we get some decent weather.
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See, now you could plop down on some water just for fun if you had an A5!! Time to trade I think, or... put floats on your Sky Arrow! :D
 
SkyDog58 said:
The Icon was never intended to be a cross country heavy load carrying speed demon. Why do some people keep talking about what it can't do when it was not designed to do that? Talk about what it was designed to do and whether it does that well or not.
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Exactly :yes:

I could just as easily say folks Bo's and Mooneys are piles of crap because they can't even land on water or even have a simple attachment for skis, what a useless aircraft!

I can fly from the airport hangar to my house in 9 minutes, even if you double my 110kts, you will NEVER beat me, you have to go land at another closer airport and drive your car to get to my house, I just pull up to my back yard.

Why would I waste money on a POS Bo or Cirrus that can't even do something as simple as operating out of my back yard :rolleyes:



Jay Honeck said:
At 80, it's nothing but a toy.
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Can your RV land on water or work for hire in the backcountry? If not, that to me is a toy

Like other have said

Different aircraft have different missions, some folks missions are not the same as yours, the A5 is a great airframe, it makes lots of sense for some folks and is a great bang for the buck for a brand spanking new aircraft, considering everything it brings to the plate.
 
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I thought it was a bit silly comparing it to commercial airline travel. Comparing it to cab/train ride out of a city to the burbs it more in line with reality.

But if it got some people interested enough to just go take a first lesson its good for GA right?
 
Dav8or said:
See, now you could plop down on some water just for fun if you had an A5!! Time to trade I think, or... put floats on your Sky Arrow! :D
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If I lived on Lake Blue Ridge it would be a cool option! As it is, Copperhill airport is much closer to where I live. But being an amphib adds a whole 'nother dimension.

Once used prices get established, a partnership on one of these puppies could be attractive.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The Icon is a very, very cool aircraft.

Until it gains a wee bit of speed, however, it isn't worth much as transportation. I can't see myself puttering along at 90. That would eliminate 80% of our flying destinations, which are, by necessity, all day-trips.
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I agree. I'm not sure when/why they changed the wing design. The "old" version was claimed to be about 20kts faster.

I had access to a cub for awhile but after about 2 years of flying it, I must admit to getting bored with it. Just too slow to go anywhere.
 
dell30rb said:
I agree. I'm not sure when/why they changed the wing design. The "old" version was claimed to be about 20kts faster.

I had access to a cub for awhile but after about 2 years of flying it, I must admit to getting bored with it. Just too slow to go anywhere.
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Amphibious cub?
 
The Icon is not for the masses. It's not going to bring any common folk to aviation. It is a limited mission "status" toy by design. Why else would you pay so much for so little performance?

THAT'S why the article ran in the Wall Street Journal and not the Penny Saver.
 
dell30rb said:
I had access to a cub for awhile but after about 2 years of flying it, I must admit to getting bored with it. Just too slow to go anywhere.
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lol Glad to hear I'm not alone.

With all the "Cub worship" going on in the pilot community, I thought I was the only one who considered it a slow, old, drafty, noisy, finicky to land, fair weather airplane. I wouldn't want one if you gave it to me, yet I know a lot of pilots who love 'em.

The Icon would be a blast to own, but until it picks up some speed it would be an add-on plane, not a replacement. I am hopeful that the manufacturers will eventually follow on with a quicker version.
 
dell30rb said:
I had access to a cub for awhile but after about 2 years of flying it, I must admit to getting bored with it. Just too slow to go anywhere.
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It only took me one flight to get bored with a Cub!
 
KeithASanford said:
The Icon is not for the masses. It's not going to bring any common folk to aviation. It is a limited mission "status" toy by design. Why else would you pay so much for so little performance?

THAT'S why the article ran in the Wall Street Journal and not the Penny Saver.
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Another clue was the article's reference to a vacation home in the Berkshires! :rofl:
 
dell30rb said:
I agree. I'm not sure when/why they changed the wing design. The "old" version was claimed to be about 20kts faster.

I had access to a cub for awhile but after about 2 years of flying it, I must admit to getting bored with it. Just too slow to go anywhere.
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And yet year after year, people pay top dollar for one. As high as $200,000 for a fancy new one. There are plenty of people drunk with the idea of "low and slow". Enough to make this plane a nominal success.
 
KeithASanford said:
The Icon is not for the masses. It's not going to bring any common folk to aviation. It is a limited mission "status" toy by design. Why else would you pay so much for so little performance?

THAT'S why the article ran in the Wall Street Journal and not the Penny Saver.
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Yeah, OK. You got Icon and the A5 there. Only a toy for the rich folk. (Class bigotry once again.:rolleyes2: ) Show me the brand new airplane for sale in the "Penny Saver" that is for the common folk.

Can't do that? Show me the brand new airplane in any media outlet that is for the common folk. When you find it, tell me why it is not "just a toy".

The hate for airplane manufacturers never seems to end. :mad2:
 
There's no class bigotry here, my friend. $250k is a low price point for a new plane, but not for a plane that seats two and cruises at 90 knots. Many of us can afford it(cash or financed), it's not exactly the best economic choice for the masses. You can get way more LSA at this price point and in some cases, way more plane in general. If it's what you want, write the check . Not many will. Personally, I prefer more steak than sizzle.

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk
 
A-5 is cool as heck, given a waterfront house and the time to fly it, and it is likely the most fun you could have with a flying machine. And importantly the manufacturer seems to have what most plane manufacturers lack- a functioning marketing department. Good for them.
 
Phoenix said:
A-5 is cool as heck, given a waterfront house and the time to fly it, and it is likely the most fun you could have with a flying machine. And importantly the manufacturer seems to have what most plane manufacturers lack- a functioning marketing department. Good for them.
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Lol, that's the point. It is a cool-looking aircraft, and it serves its function (short-range, low level, low payload) decently. However, it requires (intrinsically) that you have a 3K sq ft lakefront property because you likely have one if you can afford to plop down $200K+ on an airborne-jet ski. Seriously, if you wanted to get the same utility as the Icon A5, at a normal person's income, you could get something like a SeaRey. Sure, the wings don't fold up, but big deal.

The A5 isn't going to bring anyone to GA who didn't have the means/desire to do so in the first place. I don't hate the Icon A5 by any means, and they might have one of the best marketing departments in GA right now, but I'm not going to pretend that what they have is going to make much of an impact. When those new A5's have a decade or two on them, their used prices might spur some activity.
 
SoonerAviator said:
...The A5 isn't going to bring anyone to GA who didn't have the means/desire to do so in the first place....
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I don't think this statement is true. Look at Warlock's post, 2nd post in this thread. Articles like this in non-aviation magazines are going to spark interest from outside the existing GA community. Whether the person buys an A5 or not isn't really necessary to 'bring anyone to GA'. They may decide to take lessons, rent, buy used, buy a cheaper LSA.

I would guess that the A5 has already sparked a few Searay sales.
 
jimbilly said:
I don't think this statement is true. Look at Warlock's post, 2nd post in this thread. Articles like this in non-aviation magazines are going to spark interest from outside the existing GA community. Whether the person buys an A5 or not isn't really necessary to 'bring anyone to GA'. They may decide to take lessons, rent, buy used, buy a cheaper LSA.

I would guess that the A5 has already sparked a few Searay sales.
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Right, but Cirrus, Cessna, et al., post advertisements in non-aviation publications as well. I don't think Icon's effect on GA will be any more than the others out there. Time will tell, but the thing that deflates everyone without ample means is the cost of obtaining the certificate. Then, they find out the price of the A5 or any other sub-20yr old aircraft and forget the idea altogether. I honestly don't feel that anything, short of some resurgence in certified-experimental aircraft legislation that greatly reduces cost, will bring tons of new blood to GA. I'll be happy to eat my words if the A5 proves otherwise.
 
The Icon push is better then the old lie 'anywhere, anytime in your own flying machine.' bit that isn't bringing in buckets of pilots. Oh yeah that'll be 3/4 million and avoid clouds six months out of the year.:lol: A used weight shift trike on floats would probably be as much fun for less then the tax bill on an A5 but those things aren't getting in the WSJ. Selling honest fun is better then selling a utility untruth.
SoonerAviator said:
Right, but Cirrus, Cessna, et al., post advertisements in non-aviation publications as well. I don't think Icon's effect on GA will be any more than the others out there. Time will tell, but the thing that deflates everyone without ample means is the cost of obtaining the certificate. Then, they find out the price of the A5 or any other sub-20yr old aircraft and forget the idea altogether. I honestly don't feel that anything, short of some resurgence in certified-experimental aircraft legislation that greatly reduces cost, will bring tons of new blood to GA. I'll be happy to eat my words if the A5 proves otherwise.
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Phoenix said:
The Icon push is better then the old lie 'anywhere, anytime in your own flying machine.' bit that isn't bringing in buckets of pilots. Oh yeah that'll be 3/4 million and avoid clouds six months out of the year.:lol: A used weight shift trike on floats would probably be as much fun for less then the tax bill on an A5 but those things aren't getting in the WSJ. Selling honest fun is better then selling a utility untruth.
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Agreed. However, selling the A5 as a jet ski that just happens to go up and down between the air and water isn't much better. It is aviation and with the minimal training and instrumentation they are pushing, the A5 will kill a lot of people too. I predict this airplane will be the Cirrus of LSA and the next poster child of "Why do so many people die in such a safe airplane??" It has "Come be a dumb ass" written all over it.
 
Sure there will be some of that, but not that much. I don't doubt your assessment of folks intelligence, but the dumb aren't as brave as you assume. Because it flies many of the jetski dumbass crowd will stay away. Or their ladies will not let them get one. Plus it fails as a girl friendly boat, needs an open foredeck for lounging.:lol:
Dav8or said:
Agreed. However, selling the A5 as a jet ski that just happens to go up and down between the air and water isn't much better. It is aviation and with the minimal training and instrumentation they are pushing, the A5 will kill a lot of people too. I predict this airplane will be the Cirrus of LSA and the next poster child of "Why do so many people die in such a safe airplane??" It has "Come be a dumb ass" written all over it.
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Phoenix said:
Sure there will be some of that, but not that much. I don't doubt your assessment of folks intelligence, but the dumb aren't as brave as you assume. Because it flies many of the jetski dumbass crowd will stay away. Or their ladies will not let them get one. Plus it fails as a girl friendly boat, needs an open foredeck for lounging.:lol:
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Lol the thing that keeps the "JetSKi guys" away is price. You could buy 13 top-of-the-line supercharged Kawasaki 310X's for the price of on A5. Most JetSki guys only own one or two skis. I dunno if it will prove to be any better/worse for GA accidents simply because it has a fairly wide envelope to operate in terms of speed and available landing areas. However, I'm not sure the flying boat style will absolve all of the sloppy water landings that might occur.
 
KeithASanford said:
There's no class bigotry here, my friend. $250k is a low price point for a new plane, but not for a plane that seats two and cruises at 90 knots. Many of us can afford it(cash or financed), it's not exactly the best economic choice for the masses. You can get way more LSA at this price point and in some cases, way more plane in general. If it's what you want, write the check . Not many will. Personally, I prefer more steak than sizzle.

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk
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What other amphibious LSAs are out there with folding wings and are composite?

I wish I could fold my 185s wings, I'd save quite a bit of money and have a much more accessible plane.


In some parts of the country a 90kt amphib is WAAAAY faster A-B than a 180kt land only plane.
 
James331 said:
What other amphibious LSAs are out there with folding wings and are composite?

I wish I could fold my 185s wings, I'd save quite a bit of money and have a much more accessible plane.


In some parts of the country a 90kt amphib is WAAAAY faster A-B than a 180kt land only plane.
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I seriously wonder who will take advantage of the folding wing idea. Sure, you can tow it to/from a lake or local airport, but is that any easier than keeping it at a local strip? You can take it with you on vacation and hope that nobody rear-ends it/messes with it. I agree that the idea of storing it at home and folding the wings sounds nice, I just don't know about the practicality. Many of the the UL guys seem to have the folding/removable-wing covered fairly well, so it's not like it's the first of its kind in that respect. The other side is that, unless you have a really deep/wide 3rd car garage slot, you have to build a storage solution for it or pay for storage somewhere else (unless you want to store it outside).

As for composite . . . I don't know why that matters as a selling point. If it was aluminum and the same weight, would it matter? :dunno:
 
For me, an Icon would make sense only if I could keep it in a boat slip at the marina. I wonder what the city would say if I tried that? lol

We are considering buying a house on the mainland, and the Icon would make a great little commuter plane. I could keep it in our hangar over there, and park it in a boat slip on the island when I came to work.

I wonder how long it would last floating in a daily salt water bath?
 
SoonerAviator said:
I seriously wonder who will take advantage of the folding wing idea. Sure, you can tow it to/from a lake or local airport, but is that any easier than keeping it at a local strip? You can take it with you on vacation and hope that nobody rear-ends it/messes with it. I agree that the idea of storing it at home and folding the wings sounds nice, I just don't know about the practicality. Many of the the UL guys seem to have the folding/removable-wing covered fairly well, so it's not like it's the first of its kind in that respect. The other side is that, unless you have a really deep/wide 3rd car garage slot, you have to build a storage solution for it or pay for storage somewhere else (unless you want to store it outside).

As for composite . . . I don't know why that matters as a selling point. If it was aluminum and the same weight, would it matter? :dunno:
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I think it may be as Henning pointed out a long time ago, it's so that the plane can be stowed on the back of a yacht. These are exactly some of the type of people that will buy this plane.
 
I can see how the Icon would be great if you lived in the right place. I like the plane, but was kinda bummed they switched out the wing from the original design and significantly cut the cruise speed.
 
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