Written Exam costs

murphey

murphey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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murphey
What started this: I called my local college that is a Part 141, and where I take ground and my exams. The coordinator told me that as of March 1, the prices went sky-high and the school lost it's status as a Test Center because (and I love this one) their computer system & the FAA's were not compatible. How strange. On Feb 28, they were compatible....

Note: never, never, never use that excuse to me - I've spent 30+ years in the industry making systems talk to each other, including 4 with the FAA.

So I call a friend who's a CATS center and asked to schedule a couple exams. Nope - can'd do it. Gotta go to the centralized CATS call center and make an appointment and by the way you're gonna pay $150 each ($10 discount available).

Huh? $150 for the FOI? An exam that shouldn't take more than 5 minutes?

I just got off the phone with an EAA rep who tried to explain the increase in FAA test costs and finally admitted he couldn't.

From my POV, the "justification" from the FAA, CATS & Lasergrade are excuses and not reasons.

So, does anyone really have a valid explanation why costs went up to an $150 each?
 
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ScottM said:
Because that is what people will pay to take the test. The last test I took as $95 and that was about 4 years ago. That same shop is showing that they charge $100 for LasarGrade tests
http://www.blueskiespilotshop.com/faatests.html
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The link on the page is wrong, but that's another matter. If you go to the LaserGrade website it's clearly stated that all FAA exams are $150
 
I once heard you could take paper written exams at the FSDO for free?
Anyone else heard of that? I need to take my ATP and am also ****ed about paying 150.
 
taters said:
I once heard you could take paper written exams at the FSDO for free?
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Actually, we took them at the GADO (General Aviation District Office), not the FSDO, as that was before the GADO's and ACDO's (Air Carrier District Offices) were combined into FSDO's. IOW, it was a long time ago.
Anyone else heard of that? I need to take my ATP and am also ****ed about paying 150.
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Other than involving Congress, I don't think you have much recourse.
 
murphey said:
Fine - but I still want to know why.
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I have seen nothing in the press about why the FAA did whatever it did that resulted in the increase. You might try asking AOPA about the background -- try 800-USA-AOPA with your membership number handy.
 
Ron Levy said:
I have seen nothing in the press about why the FAA did whatever it did that resulted in the increase. You might try asking AOPA about the background -- try 800-USA-AOPA with your membership number handy.
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I already spoke with EAA - they're just as baffled as everyone else. I did call AOPA last week but haven't heard from them.
 
dmccormack said:
We certify physicians, civil engineers, and attorney's without a central testing edifice -- why does aviation need this?
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Because unlike medicine, engineering, and the law, certification in aviation is considered a Federal, not state, matter. I guarantee you wouldn't like it better if each state had control of pilot testing and certification as they do over the professions you mentioned.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because unlike medicine, engineering, and the law, certification in aviation is considered a Federal, not state, matter. I guarantee you wouldn't like it better if each state had control of pilot testing and certification as they do over the professions you mentioned.
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Don't be so sure -- some states would make it far less costly. :D But that's a completely different topic.

The FAA contracts with 2 test providers. The assumption is that the test providers meet all sorts of requirements levied by the FAA, and therefore get to keep the concession.

So what interest does the FAA have in limiting the number of vendors or raising the price of the tests, given that the real costs are the facilities, the labor, and the implements?
 
taters said:
I once heard you could take paper written exams at the FSDO for free?
Anyone else heard of that? I need to take my ATP and am also ****ed about paying 150.
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I just spoke with the Denver FSDO - wrong. The only mechanism for taking the FAA exams is CATS & LaserGrade.

Now, this morning alone, I've spoken to a Part 142 school, EAA, AOPA, FSDO and I'm waiting for a call from OKC, and no two people have had the same response to my question "What's changed? Why so expensive?"
 
Didn't the TSA tack on like another $50 a few months ago?
 
I found this on jet careers, but cannot corroborate it.

"Due to the stringent requirements identified in the new Order, an ODA Compliance Fee of $50 per exam will be charged effective March 1, 2010 to each testing applicant. This fee is in addition to the price of the test. Because there will be some additional responsibilities to the testing centers, $15 of the Compliance fee shall be retained by or paid to the test sites to help offset any costs associated with complying with the current or future Order 8080.6 and/or Order 8100.15 Organization Designation Authorization (ODA). These proceeds will help ensure that both you and the ODA Holders (currently called CTDs) are able to fully meet all new responsibilities and obligations. The fee is separate from and in addition to the price of the test."
 
ScottM said:
I found this on jet careers, but cannot corroborate it.

"Due to the stringent requirements identified in the new Order, an ODA Compliance Fee of $50 per exam will be charged effective March 1, 2010 to each testing applicant. This fee is in addition to the price of the test. Because there will be some additional responsibilities to the testing centers, $15 of the Compliance fee shall be retained by or paid to the test sites to help offset any costs associated with complying with the current or future Order 8080.6 and/or Order 8100.15 Organization Designation Authorization (ODA). These proceeds will help ensure that both you and the ODA Holders (currently called CTDs) are able to fully meet all new responsibilities and obligations. The fee is separate from and in addition to the price of the test."
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OK... that made me think of the opening scene of Popeye...
 
I am glad that I preregistered on February 27 through CATS for my IFR written. I still haven't taken it yet, but have already paid $90 ($10 AOPA discount).

John
 
To answer your question: Because people that work for the Federal Government make big salaries. Someone has to pay them. Society is going more and more toward user oriented pay systems. You use a public park, you pay, you use a government service, you pay. Beurocrates in the government all make big bucks.
 
dmccormack said:
We certify physicians, civil engineers, and attorney's without a central testing edifice -- why does aviation need this?

:skeptical:
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Dude, think that one through a bit further, especially physicians and lawyers, don't know about engineers. Their tests cost more than $150 and they have to pay (even if they don't have to test due to reciprocity agreements) in every state they practice in.
 
Consider this, how many people are taking the tests annually and what do you think your pro rata burden of the infrastructure of the testing, scoring and record processing and keeping is? Here's a reality check, aviation is dirt cheap in the US. Most of the world GA is 5 times as expensive and there are some parts of the world that it is just plain not available. An example, here in Aus just for a commercial, you'll take IIRC 5 to 7 written tests and they're all $200 each (luckily for conversion I only had to take Air Law and Agricultural Applications for CASA + Spray Safe). My medical was $600.

You'll take the test once in your life (unless you fail) and it will be the cheapest thing in all your flying career.
 
Henning said:
Dude, think that one through a bit further, especially physicians and lawyers, don't know about engineers. Their tests cost more than $150 and they have to pay (even if they don't have to test due to reciprocity agreements) in every state they practice in.
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Didn't say they weren't tested -- just that there is no central (e.g. national) testing provider.
 
Henning said:
Consider this, how many people are taking the tests annually and what do you think your pro rata burden of the infrastructure of the testing, scoring and record processing and keeping is? Here's a reality check, aviation is dirt cheap in the US. Most of the world GA is 5 times as expensive and there are some parts of the world that it is just plain not available. An example, here in Aus just for a commercial, you'll take IIRC 5 to 7 written tests and they're all $200 each (luckily for conversion I only had to take Air Law and Agricultural Applications for CASA + Spray Safe). My medical was $600.

You'll take the test once in your life (unless you fail) and it will be the cheapest thing in all your flying career.
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The ole "Well, it's way more expensive here, so quit yer whinin'..." argument.

Here in the land of the (formerly known as) free market, the price of something has a link to the supply and the demand. Far, far simpler than what some bureau-drone "thinks" a "fair" price should be.

Is FAA knowledge testing driven by supply-demand curve? I have no idea...
 
dmccormack said:
The ole "Well, it's way more expensive here, so quit yer whinin'..." argument.

Here in the land of the (formerly known as) free market, the price of something has a link to the supply and the demand. Far, far simpler than what some bureau-drone "thinks" a "fair" price should be.

Is FAA knowledge testing driven by supply-demand curve? I have no idea...
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It's not supply & demand economics, it's infrastructure costs vs. demand economics. They could just tack on a $50 a year renewal fee to all active pilots licenses, that ought to pay for the GA administrative infrastructure by those who use it... don't really want that though either.
 
Henning said:
It's not supply & demand economics, it's infrastructure costs vs. demand economics. They could just tack on a $50 a year renewal fee to all active pilots licenses, that ought to pay for the GA administrative infrastructure by those who use it... don't really want that though either.
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And where's the tally showing what those direct costs are...?

Command economics is always an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
 
Henning said:
Dude, think that one through a bit further, especially physicians and lawyers, don't know about engineers. Their tests cost more than $150 and they have to pay (even if they don't have to test due to reciprocity agreements) in every state they practice in.
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Engineers don't take the state exam unless they want the PE (Professional Engineer) initials after their name.

And in some states, it's illegal to claim to be a "software engineer" because the state doesn't recognize it as an engineering discipline.
 
I
murphey said:
Engineers don't take the state exam unless they want the PE (Professional Engineer) initials after their name.

And in some states, it's illegal to claim to be a "software engineer" because the state doesn't recognize it as an engineering discipline.
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You mean a structural or civil engineer doesn't have any licensing requirements? I can just go out and design bridges, houses and other buildings and sell them? Heck, even to be a ships "engineer" which is actually a mechanic costs $190 for the written test and issuance at the USCG, and that's per level of rating.
 
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Henning said:
Dude, think that one through a bit further, especially physicians and lawyers, don't know about engineers. Their tests cost more than $150 and they have to pay (even if they don't have to test due to reciprocity agreements) in every state they practice in.
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I just applied for the professional engineer exam in NY, and it cost me $345. If you want to practice in another state, there are transfer applications, but I'm not sure if there is a fee.
 
Henning said:
I
You mean a structural or civil engineer doesn't have any licensing requirements? I can just go out and design bridges, houses and other buildings and sell them? Heck, even to be a ships "engineer" which is actually a mechanic costs $190 for the written test and issuance at the USCG, and that's per level of rating.
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To quote a friend, "It depends". I'm an electrical engineer, but I cannot hold out as one in this state as I don't have a PE. However, I don't work as an independent engineer, I work for a corporation. So the PE isn't required. I did pass the EIT in this state many (many) years ago and have it in Colorado by reciprocity. But given the area I specialize in, a PE would satisfy the bureaucrats and mean nothing otherwise. I am certified in my area of specialization by the one internationally known certification program for my specialty, however, and have had that certification for 20 years.

As my friend say, "It depends".

And I'm sure that the CE signing off on the drawings for that bridge has his PE.
 
Henning said:
I
You mean a structural or civil engineer doesn't have any licensing requirements? I can just go out and design bridges, houses and other buildings and sell them? Heck, even to be a ships "engineer" which is actually a mechanic costs $190 for the written test and issuance at the USCG, and that's per level of rating.
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Henning:

Amazing as it sounds, once an engineer has qualified as a "PE" in any discipline, they can, within the boundaries of their abilities, perform engineering in most any discipline. This is common, and sort of stunning.

They do, of course, bear the risk of stepping outside their expertise, and as a result, most would not dream of doing so . But there are exceptions (like an EE sealing a set of structural concrete plans which are woefully inadequate). Occasionally, one finds a "seal for sale."

Like many professions, engineering is a largely self-regulated profession; even when there are state-run enforcement mechanisms, they are staffed and administered by engineers. Of course, they tend to eb pretty harsh on their own when abuses occur.

§137.37 Sealing Misconduct
A license holder is guilty of misconduct and subject to disciplinary action if the license holder:
(1)knowingly signs or seals any engineering document or product if its use or implementation may endanger the health, safety, property or welfare of the public.
(2)signs or affixes a seal on any document or product when the license is inactive or has been revoked, suspended, or has expired.
(3)alters a sealed document without proper notification to the responsible license holder.
(4)allows others access to his or her electronic files containing his or her seal and/or electronic signature, unless access is explicitly authorized for particular engineering work.


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§137.55 Engineers Shall Protect the Public
(a) Engineers shall be entrusted to protect the health, safety, property, and welfare of the public in the practice of their profession. The public as used in this section and other rules is defined as any individual(s), client(s), business or public entities, or any member of the general population whose normal course of life might reasonably include an interaction of any sort with the engineering work of the license holder.
(b) Engineers shall not perform any engineering function which, when measured by generally accepted engineering standards or procedures, is reasonably likely to result in the endangerment of lives, health, safety, property, or welfare of the public. Any act or conduct which constitutes incompetence or gross negligence, or a criminal violation of law, constitutes misconduct and shall be censurable by the board.
(c) Engineers shall first notify involved parties of any engineering decisions or practices that might endanger the health, safety, property or welfare of the public. When, in an engineer’s judgment, any risk to the public remains unresolved, that engineer shall report any fraud, gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct, unethical or illegal conduct to the board or to proper civil or criminal authorities.
(d) Engineers should strive to adequately examine the environmental impact of their actions and projects, including the prudent use and conservation of resources and energy, in order to make informed recommendations and decisions.


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§137.59 Engineers’ Actions Shall Be Competent
(a) Engineers shall practice only in their areas of competence.
(b) The engineer shall not perform any engineering assignment for which the engineer is not qualified by education or experience to perform adequately and competently. However, an engineer may accept an assignment which includes phases outside of the engineer's area of competence if those other phases are performed by qualified licensed professionals, consultants, associates, or employees.
(c) The engineer shall not express an engineering opinion in deposition or before a court, administrative agency, or other public forum which is contrary to generally accepted scientific and engineering principles without fully disclosing the basis and rationale for such an opinion. Engineering opinions which are rendered as expert testimony and contain quantitative values shall be supported by adequate modeling or analysis of the phenomena described.
 
SCCutler said:
Henning:

Amazing as it sounds, once an engineer has qualified as a "PE" in any discipline, they can, within the boundaries of their abilities, perform engineering in most any discipline. This is common, and sort of stunning.
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But, to get that "PE" requires a test which carries a fee does it not? Heck, in most states just to be a General Contractor requires a test which has a fee as well. I got one in California 20 some years ago and IIRC it was around $250 to take the test.
 
In the early 80s I did take my private written exam in Frankfurt, W Germany. It was free except for the stamp that took it to Oklahoma City for grading. I think it was 60 days or so before I found out my score.

I think redistribution of wealth or expanded fee are to blame. Look what he and congress did for the biz jet folks. When I looked into setting up a testing center the basics are 50/50 between the center and CATS. I think the feds contract CATS and Lasergrade to give the test. So, I think it just gets down to greed.
 
kwoody7 said:
In the early 80s I did take my private written exam in Frankfurt, W Germany. It was free except for the stamp that took it to Oklahoma City for grading. I think it was 60 days or so before I found out my score.

I think redistribution of wealth or expanded fee are to blame. Look what he and congress did for the biz jet folks. When I looked into setting up a testing center the basics are 50/50 between the center and CATS. I think the feds contract CATS and Lasergrade to give the test. So, I think it just gets down to greed.
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I agree it's due to greed, but whose greed it what the question is.

In the early 80s when I tested for my first captains license with the USCG it was free as well. Then congress started cutting funding and the USCG now charges for evaluation of your seatime, testing, and issuance of your license. It's about $190 in all each time I upgrade (doesn't include my medical or drug screen costs) or $125 every 5 years for my renewal, that's straight to the USCG. I really don't get the complaining. The money has to come from somewhere. We complain about tax burden and "paying for somebody elses..blah blah blah..." but when it comes down to what we want to get from the government it's "I shouldn't have to pay for anything...blah blah blah..." $150 is a reasonable one time cost. I don't mind paying a reasonable cost for what I use and get.
 
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SCCutler said:
Henning:

Amazing as it sounds, once an engineer has qualified as a "PE" in any discipline, they can, within the boundaries of their abilities, perform engineering in most any discipline. This is common, and sort of stunning.
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Why is it stunning? The same is true of many professions - including, if I'm not mistaken, the legal profession.

That's why there are various certification programs (aside from licensing) and why there is not only a self-regulatory process but also a formal regulatory process for dealing with malpractice.
 
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