Wright Brothers NOT the First

Very interesting. The evidence is pretty persuasive.

-Rich
 
The Wright Brothers are proof that marketing rules the world. . . .
 
Yea but the outer banks are still a nice place to visit, Bridgeport not so much. Does this mean the NPS is going to go for a land grab of the street/runway?
 
spiderweb said:
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilots-places/pilots-adventures-more/wright-brothers-not-first-fly

Can this be true?
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If an event occurs that is so obscure and secret that you can't trace a causal chain from it to the present, it likely had no influence on the course of subsequent events and is therefore not the "first" in the causal chain. Was America "discovered" by people crossing the Bering straits land bridge or by Columbus? Which "discovery" had a greater influence on the present?

So unless they are claiming a causal link to present day aircraft via Glenn Curtiss, his accomplishment would not seem as influential and therefore not as notable.

Even the Europeans thought Santos-Dumont was first.

There are heck of a lot of contenders for first flight claims (all deader than the proverbial door nail - making it hard for them to argue their claims)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flying_machines
 
comanchepilot said:
The Wright Brothers are proof that marketing rules the world. . . .
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In many ways this is true. I was taught in elementary school that Ford invented the automobile which is obviously not the case. He made it "affordable" to the masses. Same with the light bulb. Most believe it was invented by Edison. Edison in fact made it so it could be produced commercially and brought it to the masses. In the same way the Wright Brothers may or may not have "invented" the airplane, but they certainly started the journey that brought flying to the masses. In this way their contribution to the field of aviation is the catalyst that allowed flying to become what it is today, and thus is in my mind at least most important. Is this good marketing and business skill, good self promotion, or being in the right place at the right time? Who knows. Why care? Does it really change anything?
 
The Wright brothers invented modern aviation ie using lawyers to stunt aviations growth.:lol:
 
This information was being taught in my college aviation history course in 1991. It hasn't caught on much because a whole lot of North Carolina license plates would have to be scrapped. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
This information was being taught in my college aviation history course in 1991. It hasn't caught on much because a whole lot of North Carolina license plates would have to be scrapped. ;)
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Whoever said the information on a license plate has to be true. The New Jersey license plate used to say "the garden state", in fact they still may. I lived in Jersey for five years, and can tell you from personal experience that though there may be gardens in the state, it certainly is not the sane persons idea of a garden state.
 
I wonder if WPAFB where I spent many years will now be Whitehead-Patterson AFB. :rolleyes:

Cheers
 
comanchepilot said:
The Wright Brothers are proof that marketing rules the world. . . .
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....and Lawyers.

As I understand it, they made the Smithsonian agree to only acknowledge their flight as the first powered flight as a condition of donating the Wright Flyer.
 
X3 Skier said:
I wonder if WPAFB where I spent many years will now be Whitehead-Patterson AFB. :rolleyes:

Cheers
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Good question. Was there from 1994 through 1997. Maybe they just name it Patterson AFB. How about Wright State University? Call it Whitehead. Then again the brothers were home town heros so doubt anything will change.:wink2:
 
If this is true, it doesn't paint the Wrights in a very good light. Surely they would have known about it, which would make their claims, well, fraud, to put it plainly.

As as an aside, when I was a kid, I belonged to an Aviation Explorers post sponsored by Delta that met in one of their hangars at LGA. One of the adult leaders was a senior Delta captain whose original ticket had been signed off by one of the Wrights. We used to love getting him talking about the old days. Sometimes we'd lose track of time and the meetings would go on for hours and hours. The captain revered the Wrights and loved to trace the history of Aviation from Kitty Hawk to the then-present. It was fascinating because he'd known many of the people we'd only read about.

On the other hand, I also had a shop teacher (retired military -- he'd served in WWII, so he was up there in age) who'd known both of the Wrights, and who held both of them in low regard. He said way back then that the only thing the Wrights had done first was figure out how to make money in aviation.

We liked getting him going, too, because his talks were peppered with more... let's just say "colorful" language. The best way to get him talking was to ask him why the Wrights, being bicycle mechanics by trade, didn't think of equipping their airplane with wheels. That was always a good way to liven up a class.

He attributed the first flight to an Italian, for what it's worth.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
If this is true, it doesn't paint the Wrights in a very good light. Surely they would have known about it, which would make their claims, well, fraud, to put it plainly.
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There's no evidence that the Wrights knew anything about Whitehead.

On the other hand, I also had a shop teacher (retired military -- he'd served in WWII, so he was up there in age) who'd known both of the Wrights, and who held both of them in low regard. He said way back then that the only thing the Wrights had done first was figure out how to make money in aviation.
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If he knew both of the Wrights he had to be pretty old by the time he served in WWII, Wilbur Wright died in 1912.

We liked getting him going, too, because his talks were peppered with more... let's just say "colorful" language. The best way to get him talking was to ask him why the Wrights, being bicycle mechanics by trade, didn't think of equipping their airplane with wheels. That was always a good way to liven up a class.
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Wheels don't perform very well in sand.
 
Yawn...

Revisionist history conveniently coming out after any participant/witness is long dead. Imagine if ESPN covered the Super Bowl 112 years after the game happened, but with no video tapes to review. Think they'd have any idea about what caused the underdog team's 3rd quarter drive to falter?

Wake me when the axe grinders and agenda-driven-idiots have moved on.

There were tons of early flying contraptions. The Wrights not only achieved powered, controlled flight of a heavier than air vehicle but they also developed further. They influenced the course of aviation.

Maybe the vikings visited North America before Columbus. There's evidence of it. But the vikings didn't bring the stories back for others to follow. So why should we celebrate their technical first?

Even if every claim here is correct I'm not going to go down to Dayton and demand that they stop honoring the Wright Brothers. Like Columbus, what they did mattered. They inspired people to follow them. They birthed aviation.
 
roncachamp said:
There's no evidence that the Wrights knew anything about Whitehead.
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There is a letter from Chanute to the Wrights that mentioned Whitehad as an engine builder. There is no indication that they knew of his gliders and powered gliders.
 
weilke said:
There is a letter from Chanute to the Wrights that mentioned Whitehad as an engine builder. There is no indication that they knew of his gliders and powered gliders.
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I've seen Whitehead's advertisements for his engines. Apparently the Wrights didn't believe his engines suitable for their aircraft.
 
Years ago, I knew an old guy (then), who remembered a story about the day the Wright brothers flew on the beach. He claims a train was rolling by and one man said, "Look. That thing is off the ground."
Supposedly the other man was a native and replied, "Oh. That's one of the Wright boys. They THINK they can build a contraption that can fly..."
 
douglas393 said:
Good question. Was there from 1994 through 1997. Maybe they just name it Patterson AFB. How about Wright State University? Call it Whitehead. Then again the brothers were home town heros so doubt anything will change.:wink2:
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Doubtful, It was initially Wright Field, and when Wright Field moved to where WPAFB now is, the land was purchased and dontated from funds that the city raised to keep them in town, with Patterson (owner of NCR) being the main investor. That is how it got its name.

And the city of Fairborne was named when the towns of FAIRfield and osBORNE grew into each other and merged :D
 
roncachamp said:
< snip >
If he knew both of the Wrights he had to be pretty old by the time he served in WWII, Wilbur Wright died in 1912.
< snip >
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Hmmm...

The only part of the teacher's story I can say with certainty was true is that he had, in fact, served in WWII (and yes, that was toward the end of his military career). He had the photos, medals, and scars to prove it.

He was in his 70's when I knew him, which would have put his birth somewhere around the turn of the century, and the beginning of his military career ~ 1916 - 1918. So if he'd met Wilbur, he would have been a child at the time -- certainly possible, but it does cast some doubt on the old man's yarn, in retrospect.

The teacher was part of a contingent of elderly shop teachers who were both retired military and eligible for their teaching pensions, but who continued to teach.

We loved the old farts. They treated us more like grandchildren than students. They took us fishing, gave us advice about all sorts of personal matters (usually unwanted, but always wise, in retrospect), that sort of thing.

But they also were known for spinning yarns. There's no denying that. So who knows. Probably Mr. M met Wilbur for 30 seconds at some event or another when he was 12 or so, shook his hand, and spent the next ~ 60 to 70 years expanding on that.

-Rich
 
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It's pretty clear that the more modern historians, and engineers look at Whitehead, the more people are pretty much skeptical that these claims could be true. The more they look at the rights, the more they marvel at how well they had done.
 
flyingron said:
It's pretty clear that the more modern historians, and engineers look at Whitehead, the more people are pretty much skeptical that these claims could be true. The more they look at the rights, the more they marvel at how well they had done.
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Huh???

If that were true, then why did Jane's wait until now to reverese their reporting of the story?

The reality is that there were several people independently working on building flying machines around the same time. Who was really the first doesn't really change the overall history of aircraft development. The Wrights were just the most business savvy of the bunch....and pretty ruthless when it came to patent disputes.

It is kind of like the George Welch vs Yeager argument. Who gets the credit for being the 'first' doesn't really change what has happened since.
 
I swear to God, if someone is now going to say that Christopher Columbus was not the first to discover America ........ :D
 
VanDy said:
And the city of Fairborne was named when the towns of FAIRfield and osBORNE grew into each other and merged :D
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There is no "e" at the end of Fairborn.

They didn't grow into each other. Osborne was PICKED UP AND MOVED right next to Fairfield after Huffman Dam was built and the resulting flood plain would've immersed the town. If you go to Fairborn you can find the Osborne Historical District with the houses that were physically moved there after the Dam's construction. The two towns merged a short time later.

By the way, the flood plain behind Huffman Dam, Huffman Prairie, is where the Wright Brothers flew from after Kitty Hawk and really perfected controlling the aircraft. It was at Huffman Prairie that they invented the round out and flare, for instance.
 
Morne said:
There is no "e" at the end of Fairborn.

They didn't grow into each other. Osborne was PICKED UP AND MOVED right next to Fairfield after Huffman Dam was built and the resulting flood plain would've immersed the town. If you go to Fairborn you can find the Osborne Historical District with the houses that were physically moved there after the Dam's construction. The two towns merged a short time later.

By the way, the flood plain behind Huffman Dam, Huffman Prairie, is where the Wright Brothers flew from after Kitty Hawk and really perfected controlling the aircraft. It was at Huffman Prairie that they invented the round out and flare, for instance.
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So I left out a few details and my spelling sucks :D but I didn't konw that about the flood, or forgot. Learn something new everyday!
 
Lots of people were playing with wings of various kinds and if you caught them at the right split second it might have looked like flight, but the wrights figured out 2 things that no one else had. 1. an airplane needs a way to be controlled around all 3 axes, and 2. a propeller is a wing moving in a circle.

the downfall of the wrights was the same as you see play out today again and again, as people try to protect a technology that is obviously going to become mainstream rather than getting out in front of the trend and licensing it.

in the end the wright engine aircraft (engine) company could have just as well been called the charles taylor engine company. It was taylor's contributions that had the long-lasting commercial success for the wrights. Unfortunately Taylor slipped into obscurity and it wasn't until he was an old man in a nursing home that anyone remembered who he was and tried to document his story.
 
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nddons said:
I swear to God, if someone is now going to say that Christopher Columbus was not the first to discover America ........ :D
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All my fellow Skywegians, line up behind me.... :)

Ron Wanttaja
 
Lawyers or not, marketeers or no, I think the fundamental issue is: How much of the development of modern aviation flowed from the Wrights, and how much from Whitehead? It doesn't matter if we put the crown on Whitehead, Maxim, or Pearse, the Wrights got the world flying.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I would also add that two years after the WB's first flight, they had refined their airplane enough that it performed. It could be taken off, flown all around and landed with some degree of precision.

If whitehead had followed that model he would have been barnstorming by the time the Wright Bro's were making their first flight.
 
wanttaja said:
Lawyers or not, marketeers or no, I think the fundamental issue is: How much of the development of modern aviation flowed from the Wrights, and how much from Whitehead? It doesn't matter if we put the crown on Whitehead, Maxim, or Pearse, the Wrights got the world flying.

Ron Wanttaja
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:yeahthat: They were the wright guys for the job:lol:
 
No invention comes about fully formed from any one person or group. Everything is an evolution, and ideas are permeated through culture and built upon eachother. It is overly simplistic to talk about any single point in time or single person as being the inventor of something. The best we can do is what some in this thread have mentioned, which is that the Wrights moved powered flight along substantially and to a point where it could finally become realistic.

There is large amounts of accepted evidence that Vikings landed in Labrador and Newfoundland centuries before Columbus landed in the Caribbean. The difference is that Columbus happened to be sailing under the auspices of a large kingdom with a major interest in new land/resources with great incentive to return with news and further exploration, as opposed to the vikings who weren't returning to such a homeland, and didnt have much incentive or capability to exploit the North Atlantic.
 
Yeah, yeah right. The Wright brothers didn't invent the wind tunnel, or the propellor, or roll control. They just had good PR. Whatever.
 
And all this time, I thought it was Indians and Eskimos that were here first.
 
VanDy said:
And all this time, I thought it was Indians and Eskimos that were here first.
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They were here, but they didn't know where they were until they were discovered by Columbus (who told them they were in India).
 
nddons said:
Not you too, Jonesy! Well, if the Vikings did discover America, it was to get away from that aweful Swedish or Norwegien food! Glogg? Seriously? :vomit: :D
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What do you mean?? They brought the lutefisk with them! :yes:
 
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