Would you travel with your family?

brcase said:
The point being people like to read about airplane accidents they really don't care about car accidents. Airplane accident news sells a lot more papers than car accident news.
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No kidding. A guy in a C150 lands on an unused gravel road in the country because of rough running, and our local rag prints a history of crashes going back twenty years.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If you aren't willing to take your family, you probably shouldn't be flying.
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:yeahthat:

Flying with family is very rewarding and being able to skip a long drive and take the plane is awesome. Thorough preflight, check weather, know the route, use a checklist...... No hesitation taking family.
 
If the way the news and the un-initiated public talks about little airplanes was true, the runways would all be covered in blood and airplane bits. As you have clearly seen, they are not and not only that but most of the little airplanes you see flying around were built in the 60s and 70s.... the fact that they haven't all been left in some smoking hole in the ground should tell you something too.

Be smart, be careful, be conservative, and double-check everything... but once you've done all that it's time to just quit worrying and enjoy it.
 
petrolero said:
... That said, I like the saying: "data" is not the plural of "anecdote". ...
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I like that.

My data-oriented analysis is this: I have read that the accident statistics on GA flying are similar to those for motorcycle riding on public roads. However, when riding a bike there are many things that are out of your control, mostly the behavior of other drivers --- many more than are out of your control when you are flying an airplane. So, flying is almost as safe as I want to make it. Avoid lousy weather, don't push fuel limits, stay proficient, ... Most of them have been said here already.

So my bottom line is that I feel I am considerably safer than someone riding a bike on the street and that, for me, is an acceptable level of safety for carrying passengers.
 
I have tighter limits with family - I don't fly them to uncontrolled fields on good weather weekends; not taking them on trips with a good chance of T'storms on the route; I tend to go IFR, and a bit higher, to reduce interaction with VFR traffic; no night flying, unless severe clear; no "hard" IMC.

Alone, I'll relax all these rules, though I avoid "hard" IMC at night. This is in a 172, G-530, autopilot, Nexrad, newish engine.
 
drotto said:
Let me add to this, and I believe my concern come from outside sources. Like I said, I am low time, and have had my PPL since April 2015. I am currently about 1/3 rd of my way through my IFR training. I have also completed my HP and complex sign offs. I feel 100% comfortable in the plane. My father who owns the plane told me he is 100% comfortable that I can fly his plane, and he just added me to the insurance policy (basically my Christmas present). My wife is still not sold on the idea and has not been up yet. She was going to do a 45 minute "trip" with me about 3 months ago but I cancelled it due to weather. So we drove. I have been looking for another opportunity to take her up, but she shows no excitement about it, nor push to get up. I did take my kids up at the end of my PPL training with the CFI in the right seat. They acted as if they were in a car. I want to do a nice trip and hope that changes that, because she loves day trips and long weekends.

I guess it is outside influences that are still getting to me. Mainly, it is her family thinking I am nuts, and I should not talk the family up. Her grandmother has gone as far as calling GA planes death traps. I know the reality, and (despite flying) am a very cautious person by nature.
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Okay, that changes things...:yes: Here is how I did it... Pick a perfect day then take her on a short lunch trip. Be the best pilot you can be.... Next step will take some work... See if there is someplace she been wanting to go but is to far for a day trip by car, then fly her there. Expand the distances. Turn what would be a week long trip into a long weekend. Make these trips all about fun for her. She has fun and you get to fly...:wink2: If you're lucky you hear the magic words "How long would it take to fly to...".:yes:

As far as the anti-flying others, well... They will still talk but you will be making memories with the family....

Good luck and keep us posted...
 
We bought our plane to travel. The drive to the airport is the real risk.

We just went from ocean city MD out to rapid city SD.
 
Most of my family won't travel with me. My wife and I have 5 kids, and she does not even like being near airports. My youngest (age 11) enjoys flying but not enough really to fly just to fly. The next oldest - just a few years older - is so apprehensive about most things that I'm afraid to even try to fly him somewhere. His older sister was 14 when I first put her in the plane and she made me turn around and land immediately - we learned quickly that she was intolerant of altitude change. Her older brother was 17 and had no problem flying once he learned that not every landing was a dramatic smack into the ground, but didn't see the point of just flying. I have since flown him to Mackinac Island to attend a wedding, and he was pretty bored during the 5 hours of flying. The oldest son has his mother's opinions about planes and flying. In fact, he said of me, "I think he really knows his stuff, and I'm not getting in one of those planes with him."

In my world, flying isn't for everyone, and I respect their opinions. I endeavor to be safe and cautious, but I still found myself flying through a mile of heavy to extreme precip with my youngest son because I cut a corner closer than I thought. Even if I'm careful, things happen. Like others have said, I enjoy living life, enjoy the utility of flying, and get to see and share some pretty awesome things with friends and family who like to fly.

I will send my wife commercial and fly a couple of boys and still end up ahead =)
 
GMascelli said:
We bought our plane to travel. The drive to the airport is the real risk.

We just went from ocean city MD out to rapid city SD.
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That's some trip. What are you flying?
 
Yes. However, I am more cautious with passengers than when alone. I do overwater stretches solo. I will fly in the mountains with family (the beauty worth the added risk).
 
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drotto said:
I guess it is outside influences that are still getting to me. Mainly, it is her family thinking I am nuts, and I should not talk the family up. Her grandmother has gone as far as calling GA planes death traps. I know the reality, and (despite flying) am a very cautious person by nature.
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Just give it some time. If you don't die in a plane wreck over the next couple of years , their assessment of the risks will adjust. Just never tell them about any mistakes you make. They need to sense that everything goes smoothly in the air because you're careful and competent.
 
I'll fly with the family down to IFR mins, assuming I'm current and proficient.

Flew from Phoenix to Chicago and back last year in IMC most of the trip (with various stops for sightseeing/family visits)


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I've flown with my wife and kids for decades, all single engine, all VFR by choice.

We've flown from Canada to Mexico, coast to coast. My kids were in baby seats when I started, and they're adults now. We did and saw things that few kids ever could, and their lives were immensely enriched because of general aviation.

I highly recommend it.
 
drotto said:
So would you use you plane to take family trips? Under what conditions? What ages? Whatever you feel you would like to add.
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Yes, I fly my family all the time and my family has usually influenced my aircraft choices.

I have two daughters, currently 8 and 5. Both have flown and gone on trips since they were babies.

As far as conditions, pretty much the same as what I am comfortable with although I try a little harder to avoid bad turbulence and fly shorter legs with the family than when I'm solo.
 
Agreed on the shorter legs... Family travel:

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I fly with my family and friends all the time, including the most important member. The dog. haha. The wife and dog just got their first 2.5 hours of actual over christmas going from so cal to the sacramento area.
 
I happily fly with my family, friends and business associates. I do have different SOPs with passengers however. I do not embark on an IFR flight by myself if ceilings are forecasted to be 500 or less at destinatin. I move that up to 800 with passengers. That said I have had to to land at minimums several times but do not set out to do so unless training. I am a 58 yo business guy that flies 150 hours a year and although I seek to fly to professional standards it is not my profession and I try to shave risk where I can.
 
The biggest difference I see between flying and driving (other than the obvious - joy of flying, convenience, joy of flying, speed, joy of flying, scenery, joy of flying, coolness factor, joy of flying, etc) is that while flying, I'm not within one or two arms' length on ALL SIDES by idiots distracted by texting, phone calls, passengers, applying makeup, finding the right CD, tuning the radio, trying to find their dropped phone, etc...

I love formation flying - just not on the ground with untrained amateurs all 1 trigger event away from road rage.
 
Its really hard to compare stats for driving vs flying. Both have clear risks. What I usually tell people when this issue comes up:

When driving much of the risk is the other people on the road. Accidents involving multiple airplanes are extremely rare. When flying there is risk but you are much more in control of your own destiny.

Also, the vast majority of airplane accidents (c.75%) are due to pilot error. Everyone worries about things like engine trouble but that's not usually what kills people. For pilots that have the right attitude there are vast resources available to learn about what goes wrong and continuous training to make sure skills are sharp and that these mistakes are avoided to the extent possible. With a concerted effort a pilot Has a good shot at making their stats vastly better than "average."

From personal experience, everyone I know personally that was killed in an airplane was in an accident where pilot error was the primary cause that made things go south (specifically an impossible turn attempted with engine trouble when an open field was right ahead, causing a stall/spin).. Unfortunelty most of the people I knew that were killed on the road did nothing wrong and were killed by drivers in other vehicles. An anecdote for sure, but the point holds.

And yes, I take family and friends flying quite frequently.
 
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Awesome pictures. But what's up with the golf tee on the door? :D
 
I guess they thought making the door exit system more like a 1967 car door was a good idea...? :)
 
My wife was my 1st Pax after the DPE. We did an overnight to Ocean City. Very nice trip. Too bad we had to hustle back the next morning to bring back the rental before an airshow TFR went into effect.

Next trip was with my 9month old daughter, my wife and her mother. Both first timers. I remember that trip almost like yesterday.

Flying with family makes memories. And part of the reason why I enjoy it is to give them a perspective that they would not otherwise have and many of their peers do not have.

My father-in law once told a story about how his coworkers thought he was BS'ing when he told them his SIL is a pilot and airplane owner and is coming for a visit with the whole family.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If you aren't willing to take your family, you probably shouldn't be flying.
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Why is that? I have a much lower risk tolerance when it comes to my kids (both of whom have flown with me) than myself. If I die in an airplane solo, they will miss my love, but they will be provided for and hopefully live long and happy lives. If they die with me, they'll be dead.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
From personal experience, everyone I know personally that was killed in an airplane was in an accident where pilot error was the primary cause that made things go south (specifically an impossible turn attempted with engine trouble when an open field was right ahead, causing a stall/spin).. Unfortunelty most of the people I knew that were killed on the road did nothing wrong and were killed by drivers in other vehicles. An anecdote for sure, but the point holds.
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This precisely matches my experience.

Every pilot I've personally known who died in a crash was personally responsible for the crash.

Every driver I've personally known who died in a crash was a victim.
 
Seven of us fly all over the country together. Headset bill was a *****. :goofy:
 

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drotto said:
So would you use you plane to take family trips? Under what conditions? What ages? Whatever you feel you would like to add.
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Been doing it for 38 years. Ages pre-birth through late 80's. As others say, be picky about weather and be prepared to stop or turn around.

It is very difficult for your brain to have a proper perception of the risks when accidents get heavy coverage and safe flights get little.
 
Yep, same here, we fly places regularly. VMC or IMC, just no thunderstorms or ice, which meant my daughter took Delta home for Christmas break; temps were negative at 6,000' and light snow was falling. At the end of Thanksgiving break I brought her and her boyfriend back and shot the ILS with a 300' ceiling. Just another trip.
 
Here's something to think about... How about getting your wife and/or kids (if they're capable) some flying lessons so when you have that heart attack or brain aneurysm your family doesn't have to die with you. Hate to sound morbid but these things happen, even to the most physically fit and healthy people. Don't fly your family in situations where you don't have a way out if things go to crap. That's pretty selfish if you do, just saying..
 
hkyplr18 said:
Here's something to think about... How about getting your wife and/or kids (if they're capable) some flying lessons so when you have that heart attack or brain aneurysm your family doesn't have to die with you. Hate to sound morbid but these things happen, even to the most physically fit and healthy people. Don't fly your family in situations where you don't have a way out if things go to crap. That's pretty selfish if you do, just saying..
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I see what you are saying, but the looking at the NTSB reports of accidents like that, something along those lines is so, so rare.

One is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime or die in a house fire, that to be killed when the PIC is incapacitated.

Sure, it COULD happen, but we are drifting into statistical noise territory, talking about just 1% of all GA accidents.

Much better to focus on eliminating (or at least minimizing) on the 5 biggest GA killers that one of the poster previously listed.
 
beestforwardspeed said:
I see what you are saying, but the looking at the NTSB reports of accidents like that, something along those lines is so, so rare.

One is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime or die in a house fire, that to be killed when the PIC is incapacitated.

Sure, it COULD happen, but we are drifting into statistical noise territory, talking about just 1% of all GA accidents.

Much better to focus on eliminating (or at least minimizing) on the 5 biggest GA killers that one of the poster previously listed.
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(stand up applause)
 
I'm just getting started, but I have every intention of flying with the family.

I did have the initial concerns about safety because I always hear about the "dangers of GA", but the more I looked into it the more factual information I found the more comfortable I felt. As has already been stated, the dangers are typically self induced.

I do plan to get my Instrument rating as quickly as possible after my PPL to minimize any potential weather oopses.
 
Traveling with family? Preferably with a twin or a Cirrus. I wholeheartedly accept the risk when flying alone, and realize that I will only kill myself if I goof. Friends and family really don't understand what they're getting into when they climb into that crate, so I'd prefer to give them every fighting chance by flying an airplane that has more options.

I always have second thoughts about bringing someone I love up in a single. And, I pick my route to allow for more options should the fan quit.

No need to start anything on a multi flying on one engine... yadda yadda. I know.
 
bullwinkle said:
Unlike driving, most of the risks of flying are controlled by the pilot. Minus mechanical failures, almost all of them are. While your statement above is true across all pilots and all flying, if you take out the usual "stupid pilot tricks":

* flying into marginal or deteriorating weather

* having insufficient fuel for the flight

* maneuvering at low level / impromptu "airshow"

* inadequate flight planning with good alternates

* good speed and directional control in pattern especially base-to-final turn

* exceeding gross weight or CG
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Disagree that the controllable risks are dramatically different in terms of ratios of incidents.

If you stack the decks in your favor in driving then you are also far less likely to die in a wreck. Don't drink and drive. Don't drive in bad weather. Drive defensively. Stay out of blind spots. Don't speed. Don't text and drive. The reality is that you control an ton of your own destiny in both modes of commuting.

It would be easy to convince me that driving does have a higher percentage of deaths of, for lack of a better word, innocents. But I've been with far more crappy drivers than crappy flyers and have read enough accident reports that I don't believe for a moment that the tables turn completely between the two.
 
172andyou said:
Disagree that the controllable risks are dramatically different in terms of ratios of incidents.

If you stack the decks in your favor in driving then you are also far less likely to die in a wreck. Don't drink and drive. Don't drive in bad weather. Drive defensively. Stay out of blind spots. Don't speed. Don't text and drive. The reality is that you control an ton of your own destiny in both modes of commuting.

It would be easy to convince me that driving does have a higher percentage of deaths of, for lack of a better word, innocents. But I've been with far more crappy drivers than crappy flyers and have read enough accident reports that I don't believe for a moment that the tables turn completely between the two.
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I think you've missed the point.

Of course if you don't personally drink and drive that will help, but the issue on the road is that people that text or drink while driving tend to kill other drivers, not themselves. You can't control for that.
 
Take the family?

I guess..

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I have a terrible time keeping them out of a plane..
 
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