Would or How to log this?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
Normal day to go flying. You start the airplane. While the engine warms, you begin to program the avionics. You are now ready to taxi and do so at a speed that does not exceed a walking pace. You reach the end of the taxiway where you perform your runup.

Scenario 1: the engine quits and refuses to restart during the runup. You have the airplane towed back to parking to have a mechanic look at it, but your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 2: you have a bad magneto and after all checking including checking for lead fouling, you are not satisfied the engine is airworthy. You taxi back to parking to have a mechanic later look at it. Your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 3: conditions are 0/0 and you had determined to accept the risk of a 0/0 takeoff but with a recalcitrant engine, like either 1 or 2 above, it ain't happening. You call ATC, cancel your IFR departure clearance and hang it up for the day.

Would you and how would you log the time in your logbook since the airplane moved under its own power with the purpose of flight?
 
I only log time that's >30kts GS. I never log taxi time.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Would you and how would you log the time in your logbook since the airplane moved under its own power with the purpose of flight?
Click to expand...

I've done it before; once just a taxi-back for no mag drop, once for aborted takeoff with a defective RPM gauge (I guess I did get about a foot off the ground that time).

You've got the long and short of it: moved under its own power for the purpose of flight.

I forget the exact rule, but by the letter of the law you're supposed to log from first motion until coming to the first stop after landing. My understanding is that the FAA accepts reasonable estimations of that, and the reasonable estimation I always use is Hobbs time. In all of the above cases, I would log the Hobbs time.
 
Q: Were you the PIC while you taxi'd that plane or was someone else?

Easy answer IMO.
 
mcmanigle said:
I've done it before; once just a taxi-back for no mag drop, once for aborted takeoff with a defective RPM gauge (I guess I did get about a foot off the ground that time).

You've got the long and short of it: moved under its own power for the purpose of flight.

I forget the exact rule, but by the letter of the law you're supposed to log from first motion until coming to the first stop after landing. My understanding is that the FAA accepts reasonable estimations of that, and the reasonable estimation I always use is Hobbs time. In all of the above cases, I would log the Hobbs time.
Click to expand...

You MAY log it. You aren't required to if you aren't counting it towards anything.
 
I log Hobbs time, therefore taxi time, but only if I get off the ground. A couple of months ago I took off for a cross country and saw that the ceilings weren't what I liked, so I landed. Logged 0.3 hours, which obviously includes taxi. Had I made my no-go decision on the ground, I wouldn't have logged anything.
 
I don't log it if I don't fly.

The regs allow me to log time "for the purpose of flight," but frankly, I don't see the point if no takeoff has happened.

Generally, I don't get charged for it either.
 
MAKG1 said:
I don't log it if I don't fly.

The regs allow me to log time "for the purpose of flight," but frankly, I don't see the point if no takeoff has happened.

Generally, I don't get charged for it either.
Click to expand...

I hired one of my regular CFIs to help me knock the rust off after a bit of time off flying (really just a confidence issue). We were now ready to depart and took considerable note of a T-Storm cell a few miles just beyond the DE and considered a judgement call. The plan was to stay in the pattern and this cell was moving swiftly.

I considered it a good exercise in judgement to call it quits. I logged it. The CFI congratulated my decision and didn't accept his fair pay, which I felt he earned. My confidence returned sufficiently to fly again soon after.
 
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
FAR 1.1 defines it as "from the time the airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing."
Did you land?
In the spirit of the rule, the time you move for the purpose of flight is when you have completed your run-up and decided to take flight. So when you have been cleared for take-off, or cleared yourself at a non-towered airport, and taking the runway, then you are moving forward for the purpose of flight.
The culture has determined that Hobbs time is the rule, because that's how we pay on a rental, but it ain't flight time.
Just my 2c.
Old school rules.
 
nosehair said:
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
FAR 1.1 defines it as "from the time the airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing."
Did you land?
In the spirit of the rule, the time you move for the purpose of flight is when you have completed your run-up and decided to take flight. So when you have been cleared for take-off, or cleared yourself at a non-towered airport, and taking the runway, then you are moving forward for the purpose of flight.
The culture has determined that Hobbs time is the rule, because that's how we pay on a rental, but it ain't flight time.
Just my 2c.
Old school rules.
Click to expand...
Good Point! I suppose those are market forces at work. But it's nice to know that under the new regime, I'm accruing credit for prep time, which has means I'm less likely to rush, enhancing safety, since I'm already burning gas.

For me, I start my flight timer when the Engine goes on, so I can maintain a hedge on fuel usage. My fuel planning is based on cruise GPH and book climb consumption. I don't have a totalizer and refuse to be a starvation statistic. Again, you raise a good point sir.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Normal day to go flying. You start the airplane. While the engine warms, you begin to program the avionics. You are now ready to taxi and do so at a speed that does not exceed a walking pace. You reach the end of the taxiway where you perform your runup.

Scenario 1: the engine quits and refuses to restart during the runup. You have the airplane towed back to parking to have a mechanic look at it, but your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 2: you have a bad magneto and after all checking including checking for lead fouling, you are not satisfied the engine is airworthy. You taxi back to parking to have a mechanic later look at it. Your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 3: conditions are 0/0 and you had determined to accept the risk of a 0/0 takeoff but with a recalcitrant engine, like either 1 or 2 above, it ain't happening. You call ATC, cancel your IFR departure clearance and hang it up for the day.

Would you and how would you log the time in your logbook since the airplane moved under its own power with the purpose of flight?
Click to expand...

Hahaha my very first flight lesson, we taxi out and my CFI talks me through the runup procedure following the checklist. After determining we had a bad mag, we taxi back. No other planes available, so no flying that day.
My first logbook entry: 5/23/98 KTEB-KTEB, Bad Mag check, Hobbs-.3 :D

I was proud of that .3, it was my first lesson in systems and critcal ADM. Plus my CFI knew how eager I was to get into the air after a week of ground school and a long drive to the airport that day:yes:
 
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^^^ yep, my hobbs meter is hooked to an airflow switch on the belly

over the course of time toward something like 500hr repetitive airframe inspection, you can use up a lot of those hours sitting on the ground waiting for a clearance etc. That isn't flight time, it doesn't count. If your hobbs is hooked to an oil pressure switch or if you are using tach time, you are cheating yourself on inspections and depreciation.
 
I wouldn't log it. But I suppose you could. The rule is, if you intend to fly, you can log the taxi time. Gives you credit for the abort.
 
nosehair said:
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
FAR 1.1 defines it as "from the time the airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing."
Did you land?
In the spirit of the rule, the time you move for the purpose of flight is when you have completed your run-up and decided to take flight. So when you have been cleared for take-off, or cleared yourself at a non-towered airport, and taking the runway, then you are moving forward for the purpose of flight.
The culture has determined that Hobbs time is the rule, because that's how we pay on a rental, but it ain't flight time.
Just my 2c.
Old school rules.
Click to expand...

That's splitting hairs in my opinion. Do I care whether I log the actual time in flight or the total time from key on to key off? No, does me no good either way, I don't need additional time for anything. Am I going to go through the effort to track ground time vs. air time? Hell no.

Same deal when I had a plane without a Hobbs meter in it. I just logged tach time, and it underestimated actual time on most of my flights except the longer ones.
 
nosehair said:
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
FAR 1.1 defines it as "from the time the airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing."
Did you land?
In the spirit of the rule, the time you move for the purpose of flight is when you have completed your run-up and decided to take flight. So when you have been cleared for take-off, or cleared yourself at a non-towered airport, and taking the runway, then you are moving forward for the purpose of flight.
The culture has determined that Hobbs time is the rule, because that's how we pay on a rental, but it ain't flight time.
Just my 2c.
Old school rules.
Click to expand...

For the 20 years I have been flying, everyone, including myself has always logged hobbs time.

Now if you start the plane with the intention of going up flying and decide at the runway not to go, that is time that can be logged, as long as the intention was to go flying.

That's been the rules I have known for 20 years, until I see writing or a DPE says otherwise.
 
Personally, I don't log any time unless I get i to the air. If I logged all the taxi time, would probably add 50 hours over the years.
 
I actually thought about this same situation, thought about it and decided its not really worth it since its taxi time and not airtime that i actually "flew", but thats just my opinion.
 
murphey said:
Personally, I don't log any time unless I get i to the air. If I logged all the taxi time, would probably add 50 hours over the years.
Click to expand...

You are PIC during the taxi and exercising care and caution. Aren't you flying the plane (safety conscious) from tiedown to tiedown?
 
nosehair said:
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
Click to expand...

I know you're talking about GA, and I understand your point, but for the sake of argument, the FAA considers the time I spend dicking around on the ground to be part of my flight time limitation under Part 117. So for logging purposes, it's standard to use block time - from push back to block in. And honestly, I do the same for GA.

That said, if I get out to the runway and have to return to the gate - that doesn't get logged (but I do get paid!). :)
 
JHW said:
***If your hobbs is hooked to an oil pressure switch or if you are using tach time, you are cheating yourself on inspections and depreciation.
Click to expand...

One of the planes at my school has a tach and a Hobbs meter, so they do 100-hour inspections based on the tach and rental fees based on the Hobbs.

It's a perfect world from somebody's perspective, though not mine. :(
 
I'm on a timeshare, and thinking back it would have been prudent to log that time when a mag failed in run-up, since they go by Hobbs time.
 
If something out of the ordinary happens I make a note of it in the logbook for future reference.
 
The only time it would make sense to log would be a student on the off chance they are ready for their check ride .3 early. I'm guilty, had to run up a helicopter to check something I lifted up to a hover and set it back down so I could log the run up as flight time. If I launch my paraglider in light winds and have a sled ride, <30 seconds at the beach, I log it. Time is meaningless but when I flip through my logbook the haven't flown since x scorecard is reset. Nov will be the first month in over a year I didn't get a flight in.
 
I would be ashamed to log something of that nature. Often times, short on time, I'd preflight, do a couple of tos and landings, put it away and go back to work. Never logged these either.
 
Jaybird180 said:
You are PIC during the taxi and exercising care and caution. Aren't you flying the plane (safety conscious) from tiedown to tiedown?
Click to expand...
Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
a : to move in or pass through the air with wings
b : to move through the air or before the wind or through outer space
c : to float, wave, or soar in the air <flags flying at half-mast>
2
a : to take flight : flee
b : to fade and disappear : vanish

3
a : to move, pass, or spread quickly <rumors were flying>
b : to be moved with sudden extreme emotion <flew into a rage>
c : to seem to pass quickly <the time simply flew>

4
: to become expended or dissipated rapidly

5
: to operate or travel in an airplane or spacecraft

You may choose to log flight time whenever you are operating the aircraft. I choose to log flight time only if the wheels leave the ground. Personal preference.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Normal day to go flying. You start the airplane. While the engine warms, you begin to program the avionics. You are now ready to taxi and do so at a speed that does not exceed a walking pace. You reach the end of the taxiway where you perform your runup.

Scenario 1: the engine quits and refuses to restart during the runup. You have the airplane towed back to parking to have a mechanic look at it, but your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 2: you have a bad magneto and after all checking including checking for lead fouling, you are not satisfied the engine is airworthy. You taxi back to parking to have a mechanic later look at it. Your flying is done. You note the time expended on tach and Hobbs.

Scenario 3: conditions are 0/0 and you had determined to accept the risk of a 0/0 takeoff but with a recalcitrant engine, like either 1 or 2 above, it ain't happening. You call ATC, cancel your IFR departure clearance and hang it up for the day.

Would you and how would you log the time in your logbook since the airplane moved under its own power with the purpose of flight?
Click to expand...

You can log anytime accumulated from the point you set out with the intention to take flight, so technically you could log the .1 or .2 if you want and leave the take off and landing blank. Would I? No.
 
Henning said:
You can log anytime accumulated from the point you set out with the intention to take flight, so technically you could log the .1 or .2 if you want and leave the take off and landing blank. Would I? No.
Click to expand...

Well, if you look at the 1.1 definition of Flight Time, it seems to imply a landing is required, ergo a takeoff.

Having said that, personally I wouldn't log it regardless. But I don't need the occasional one tenth of an hour either.:no:;)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, if you look at the 1.1 definition of Flight Time, it seems to imply a landing is required, ergo a takeoff.

Having said that, personally I wouldn't log it regardless. But I don't need the occasional one tenth of an hour either.:no:;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see your point. I've never had to pay for rental I had to bail out of, so I never really thought about before.
 
nosehair said:
OK, my favorite pet peeve: people who log hobbs time as if it were flight time.
Flight time is time in the air, not taxi and preparation time for the flight.
FAR 1.1 defines it as "from the time the airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing."
Did you land?
In the spirit of the rule, the time you move for the purpose of flight is when you have completed your run-up and decided to take flight. So when you have been cleared for take-off, or cleared yourself at a non-towered airport, and taking the runway, then you are moving forward for the purpose of flight.
The culture has determined that Hobbs time is the rule, because that's how we pay on a rental, but it ain't flight time.
Just my 2c.
Old school rules.
Click to expand...

My plane begins to move for the purpose of flight as soon as I release the brakes in front of the hangar. The mile-long taxi is "for the purpose of flight," since I can't takeoff in front of the hangars.

While training, my CFI logged Hobbs time for me; now I've got no Hobbs, so I log time from the yoke clock that I use to track fuel usage.
 
Jaybird180 said:
You are PIC during the taxi and exercising care and caution. Aren't you flying the plane (safety conscious) from tiedown to tiedown?
Click to expand...
Are you THAT much in need of .2 - .3 hours in the logbook?

I think you are noticing that regardless of what the FAA considers loggable, most self-respecting pilots don't log time for the scenarios you've suggested.
 
Flight time in airplanes is, by FAA regs, begins "when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." So, if you never took off, you never landed, and that means either the flight time continues until the next time you land (a day or a week or a month later) or there is no flight time at all. By the logic principle of reductio ad absurdum, I would say it's the latter.
 
redtail said:
Hahaha my very first flight lesson, we taxi out and my CFI talks me through the runup procedure following the checklist. After determining we had a bad mag, we taxi back. No other planes available, so no flying that day.
My first logbook entry: 5/23/98 KTEB-KTEB, Bad Mag check, Hobbs-.3 :D
Click to expand...
I'd log that as ground training, not flight time.
 
Wouldn't bother logging the time, if I didn't actually fly but it's my airplane and I don't need the hours
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, if you look at the 1.1 definition of Flight Time, it seems to imply a landing is required, ergo a takeoff.
Click to expand...
Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing
Click to expand...

One might read the definition that way. Another way would be you intend to go flying and start the clock when the aircraft moves under its own power. You get to the end of the runway, a mag check convinces you it is not a good idea to go flying. You return the aircraft to the shop and get it repaired. Since you did not land the airplane, the clock may not cease. The next day you continue on your flight by departing and going around the pattern once. After landing the aircraft comes to rest, you can now stop the clock.:dunno:
 
In the iinterest of safety and training time, I am mostly concerned with the training for Private Pilot. After that, go ahead and log your taxi and run-up time as flight time.
I see the minimum 40 hours for a PPC as a minimum of FLIGHT time- flight control manipulation time.
At a small non-towered, not too busy airport, the taxi/run-up time isn't very significant.
But I have trained initial students in a big busy airport environment where a typical 1.5 flight on the hobby is actually about an hour of actual flight control manipulation time.
It's a rip-off to the student.
That didn't exist in the old days before the Hobbs meter was added to the instrument panel.
We noted the T.O. and landing times more accurately, which we are supposed to do for fuel and planning, but also because that was the training time we were actually accumulating and paying for.
Mostly we used the tach time, which was the very close to actual flight time.
The engine running time meter (Hobbs) is an added meter by the rental facility to get more money for the airplane, but is not a flight time meter.
 
Boy, I must come from a different "old" school. I was taught in 1993 to log engine on to engine off.

Even if you taxi it across the airport, you log it as PIC (assuming you were) as you are the sole manipulator of the controls. I've had several flight instructors since who have agreed with engine on to engine off. I've logged taxi to the pumps, and other taxi time, as well. You're really selling yourself short if you don't.

So you all are telling me that if you land at ORD or DFW where taxiing could take 15-20 minutes you would not log that?? You're sole manipulator of the controls, under ATC direction, and certainly are in command of an aircraft.

I log engine on to engine off. Anything else and I'm understating my experience.

Short answer: YES, I would log every second of it... flight or not, go or no-go.

-Andrew
 
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