Work, welfare, suicide, & society

Henning

Taxi to Parking
Gone West
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iHenning
The German saying "Work makes life sweet" refers to this tangentially. Keeping busy is the best possible path to mental health, and too much leisure time will make you bat***** crazy.

This is the hardest lesson to learn, and the hardest thing to teach, because it is so counterintuitive.

Very perceptive. Now try applying that more broadly to society. There is a perception among some that people would rather collect welfare than work. I don't believe that's particularly true, at least not for 80%. Most people want to work, they take pride in accomplishing something valuable to society. I don't care if you work at Taco Bell or CEO at GE, you contribute a needed function in society and that you can take some pride in. There were many mornings when the crew at McDonalds fed the President.

So why is it that people don't want those jobs? Because they don't pay enough. Here's the question, "why isn't it enough?" What is missing from life? If one is missing the fundamentals, shelter or food, on a full time wage, there is a true shortfall. So, you have a person, has shelter and food, but that is not enough, they want more. Now we have to question, "Why do they want more?" Where did they get the impression they should have more? Well, the people on the TV and Radio are telling them they should. And maybe they should. Most people are quite happy with a job, a modest but comfortable home, preferably nearby work, an ample supply of food and water for them and their nuclear or even extended family. Toss in the ability to take a few weeks vacation a year and you have someone who's pleased with life. Then you have the people who want more things to use, toys; planes, yachts, fun stuff. The make a lot of money so they can buy this stuff to use three times a year, and pay a lot of money to keep it taken care of. This is burden of individual ownership.

But it really doesn't have to be that way, it's only because of money that it's that way. Plenty of cultures prospered for millennia with no concept of ownership and no money. Things were public shared. Think about what money is, money is no more than a promise. It's a promise that you can trade what you have for what you need, so long as someone else needs what you have. It's also a display of lack of faith that you will get what you need regardless. Once you lose faith, you breed mistrust; you lose a peaceful, prosperous society to the costs and ravages of war.

The funny thing is, everything that exists today could exist without money, and we would be much further advanced as a society and species. Once you have money, now an industry grows around it, and the burden of it is great both from a capital and moralistic perspective. They take a piece of every motion of money as well as the creation, but that is just the capital cost. The moralistic cost is that the money industry, and therefore all industry, works for the preservation and maximization of capital itself as if it was a sacred resource like fresh water. There is no concern or consideration given to the societal benefit or cost of any project, just, "Will it make a profit?"

The founders did not want to have a central bank as we have. They disallowed Fiat currency, which is all we have now, and wanted Treasury to serve as a central bank so it could serve the people without draining the economy. It was the British Central Bank that they revolted over.

Think if we ran a banking system on the Credit Union model? Everybody puts in what they have left over at the end of the month, everybody, corporations and individual, and the National H2 Utility. Lets say you want to build a yacht. Credit union looks at the project, 30+ people employed at a good wage for 3 years, enduring employment, good recreational resource. Yacht gets built and the credit union's interest in it is that it's a shared use asset for credit union members, everyone. When Taco Bell worker living in modest housing living a modest life gets their vacation, they can book one of these public assets for a week or a weekend. How much better do you think the Taco Bell worker would be if they got the same perks as everyone else?

It's really the toys and luxury items that cause the big rifts between have and have not. The Taco Bell worker does not envy the CEO's power nor his responsibility, what he envies is the luxuries, especially when it's the CEO of Taco Bell's luxuries. Thing about luxuries, even CEOs rarely get to enjoy them. I get far more use out a yacht than any owner lol. Any given luxury yacht could serve between 200 and 500 people a year on week long vacations and they get a yacht, not a cruise ship.

Think how many people a 182 can serve. We have lost that trade is about resources and have made it about money.
 
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How many thousand examples does it take to prove that socialism fails EVERY TIME it is tried? Unrestrained capitalism is nearly as bad, so that's where intelligent tinkering comes into play.

There is no doubt that productive work enhances self-esteem, so what's the issue here? :confused::confused::confused:
 
A bigger issue is over-specialization and working to metrics.

Being able to go home at the end of the day knowing you've made a difference in the world will make up for a lot of things.

OTOH, saddle someone with too many asinine rules, paperpushers, and artificial requirements while whittling away at their productive output and watch their health and morale drop.
 
How many thousand examples does it take to prove that socialism fails EVERY TIME it is tried? Unrestrained capitalism is nearly as bad, so that's where intelligent tinkering comes into play.

There is no doubt that productive work enhances self-esteem, so what's the issue here? :confused::confused::confused:

What is unrestrained capitalism...if you mean free markets, then you'd be wrong. The freer the market, the more robust the economic activity.
 
Oh boy.... I'm pulling the chute....
 
Well, let's qualify our answers here. Don't equate my desire to own a single engine piston aircraft I fly to the tune of 150hrs/yr, with the sociopathy of the top 400 families holding on to capital equivalent to most Countries's GDP. Wealth which they hoard btw, as they cannot possibly circulate that capital numerically with enough velocity as the masses could if they were given access to it. There are orders of magnitude difference between my desire to self-actualize as an American middle-third wage slave prole and the level of wealth concentration resultant of sanctioned sociopathy at the top.

Making 30K at taco bell without the material affluence to afford the ability to exercise the discretionary pursuits desired by my level of intellectual self-awareness, is just not gonna cut it. I was happy as a child and dependent, having everything afforded to me as a consequence of the innocence of my childhood state. But that's an immature cerebral state and accepted as such. In contrast, when I worked for just subsistence costs right after college I was the unhappiest I've ever been in my life. I don't ever wish to go back to that time. Now that I doubled my income I find myself quite content. I have the ability to cover subsistence and the material affluence to pursue my self-actualization, which includes discretionary contributions to society mind you. I would love to make 300K, but to be frank it is NOT a current and active desire in my life. I'm happy at a 100K, as long as 100K continues to buy me my lifestyle for posterity.

But make no mistake, I'd rather collect welfare and entertain self-deprecating pursuits than break my back for 30K. I work so that I can afford to self-actualize. I do NOT work to afford to merely subsist. That would drive me to unproductive, even criminal behavior. I'm too intellectually advanced to tolerate such a deficient lifestyle. I rather be knocked in the head and brain damaged in a perennial state of unambitious childhood. There's no way I could be content merely subsisting. That sounds horrible. Admitting that does not make me a sociopath like the Koch brothers, et al. Let's not throw the baby with the bathwater here.
 
Well, let's qualify our answers here. Don't equate my desire to own a single engine piston aircraft I fly to the tune of 150hrs/yr, with the sociopathy of the top 400 families holding on to capital equivalent to most Countries's GDP. Wealth which they hoard btw, as they cannot possibly circulate that capital numerically with enough velocity as the masses could if they were given access to it.

Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, et. al. don't keep their money in a mason jar buried in the backyard. Their money is invested in equities, in bonds, CD's, and other vehicles which plow the money right back into the economy.
 
This is a thought provoking post. Really enjoyed reading it.
 
How many thousand examples does it take to prove that socialism fails EVERY TIME it is tried? Unrestrained capitalism is nearly as bad, so that's where intelligent tinkering comes into play.

There is no doubt that productive work enhances self-esteem, so what's the issue here? :confused::confused::confused:

There is no reason a hybrid cannot exist. You only need the public to compete in the energy, financial, and health care industries; on the open market, to fund everything to run the country. When allowed to compete, the public sector end can be run much more effectively, and more importantly with the prime focus on "General Welfare and Common Defense" rather than private profit. The consumers can vote with their pocket books where they want their money to go. The savings in defense costs alone will be astronomical, and by offering a Credit Union style central bank alternative, people can chose to invest their money in the country on long or short term basis as well as borrow direct.

The energy industry benefits everyone and works as a very equitable way to fund the infrastructure of the country as well as provide an international export product from domestic source, actually 2 products, the 2 most important products to humanity, energy and water.

Just because other attempts have failed, and really there has only been one generation of attempts at socialism, don't make it sound like it's been tried forever. Well, Jesus tried, but they killed him for it, since then, nada.
The whole point of failure is to learn and correct the errors. Very few things actually work on the first try. Besides, Communism never had a chance to try to work since all the resource had to go into fighting wars instead of building society. In the Cold War era East Block everyone was rich, they had plenty of money, they just had nothing to buy with that money because all the resources had to go to the arms race. We were just a giant economic bully of capitalism that wanted not only to not let such ideas spread, we wanted their resources and access to their markets. We made damned sure that any kind of subversive communists weren't going to be over here. Thing is, what does Communism actually subvert?

What failed wasn't communism or socialism or even capitalism, what failed is the human spirit, and we really need to fix that problem soon.
 
Oh, BTW, ALL Pre Mesopotamian society was Communist and Communism still stood for a long time until money filtered through human society.
 
Those who work hard deserve to be rewarded for their labor. Those who choose to be lazy and suck the public teat when they have ability to do better, deserve nothing. I unfortunately see too many of this type of person in my work and I am truly sick of it. Those who cannot work due to health problems or a lack of mental ability should be cared for . They should be given what they need to live a comfortable modest life. Those who simply will not work should starve. When they get hungry enough they will go to work or steal. If they steal when they are arrested they should be put to work. They should work so hard and be so miserable that when they have served thier time they would be glad to get and hold a normal job. I am sick of supporting their sorry worthless butts. If a person has no pride they cannott be helped no matter how much money you throw at them. They must have enough pride to be willing to work for a better life for themselves and thier families. If they are willing to help themselves then I am willing to help them make it. If not then pi&& on them. Take from those who have worked for it and give to those would not , has not and will never improve their lot in life for long. They have to want something better and be willing to go work for it. Its the old story of give a man a fish and he eats for a day or teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime. The is pride to be taken from any job in which you give your best efforts.
 
On Star Trek this problem was solved when free energy was developed.
 
Nobody deserves anything except to die. If you think what you should work for is to earn things, you are lost as to what life is about.
 
If you think what I should work for is to house and feed people who don't want to work, you are lost as to what life is about.

Taking care of people who cannot take care of themselves is one thing. Taking care of people who see things being given out and would rather get those things than work, is a bad thing. Removing the shame from living on public handouts just encourages more people to do this. Fewer working to take care of everyone results in higher taxes on those who work, and smaller handout to those who don't work, and a decrease in happiness/satisfaction for everyone.

Sure am glad I went flying this morning, or I'd be really unhappy after reading this thread.

What is the aviation tie-in again?? :dunno: Guess it's time to ignore this thread. I'll keep henning around, he sometimes has good things to say. Just not today, it seems.
 
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If you think what I should work for is to house and feed people who don't want to work, you are lost as to what life is about.

Taking care of people who cannot take care of themselves is one thing. Taking care of people who see things being given out and would rather get those things than work to get what they want, is a bad thing. Removing the shame from living on public handouts just encourages more people to do this. Fewer working to take care of everyone results in higher taxes on those who work, and smaller handout to those who don't work, and a decrease in happiness/satisfaction for everyone.

How many of those people who just want to be handed everything do you think exist? I bet you a whole lot less than you fear. Here's the thing, it's easy and inexpensive to provide food and shelter to the 20% who just don't want to work, easier and cheaper than dealing with the consequences of them not having it. It's not that most people don't want to work, it's that most people don't want to work for chump change, that's why people chose criminal activity to minimum wage jobs. The problem is only going to get worse with increased automation. What will you say when your career is automated away and you're off the the employment line at Mc Donald's?

Besides, I'm not asking for your tax money to pay for it, I'm going to take that from the profits of the energy/water utility letting foreign interests fund our welfare class. However as the surrounding manufacturing and technology industries grow around the new energy source, the welfare class may decline even further.

We saw an 8 year 'Peace Dividend' in this country and look what developed when we could use our economy to create things instead of destroy them.

The reason to work is because it's the right thing to do, it's your part of what makes everything work, that's why you should work.if everything works, you will be far more prosperous than living in the cluster**** of dysfunctionality we live in now.

Also, supporting the 20% at the bottom will cost far less than supporting the .2% at the top as we do now.
 
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Very perceptive. Now try applying that more broadly to society. There is a perception among some that people would rather collect welfare than work. I don't believe that's particularly true, at least not for 80%. Most people want to work, they take pride in accomplishing something valuable to society. I don't care if you work at Taco Bell or CEO at GE, you contribute a needed function in society and that you can take some pride in. There were many mornings when the crew at McDonalds fed the President.

So why is it that people don't want those jobs? Because they don't pay enough. Here's the question, "why isn't it enough?" What is missing from life? If one is missing the fundamentals, shelter or food, on a full time wage, there is a true shortfall. So, you have a person, has shelter and food, but that is not enough, they want more. Now we have to question, "Why do they want more?" Where did they get the impression they should have more? Well, the people on the TV and Radio are telling them they should. And maybe they should. Most people are quite happy with a job, a modest but comfortable home, preferably nearby work, an ample supply of food and water for them and their nuclear or even extended family. Toss in the ability to take a few weeks vacation a year and you have someone who's pleased with life. Then you have the people who want more things to use, toys; planes, yachts, fun stuff. The make a lot of money so they can buy this stuff to use three times a year, and pay a lot of money to keep it taken care of. This is burden of individual ownership.

But it really doesn't have to be that way, it's only because of money that it's that way. Plenty of cultures prospered for millennia with no concept of ownership and no money. Things were public shared. Think about what money is, money is no more than a promise. It's a promise that you can trade what you have for what you need, so long as someone else needs what you have. It's also a display of lack of faith that you will get what you need regardless. Once you lose faith, you breed mistrust; you lose a peaceful, prosperous society to the costs and ravages of war.

The funny thing is, everything that exists today could exist without money, and we would be much further advanced as a society and species. Once you have money, now an industry grows around it, and the burden of it is great both from a capital and moralistic perspective. They take a piece of every motion of money as well as the creation, but that is just the capital cost. The moralistic cost is that the money industry, and therefore all industry, works for the preservation and maximization of capital itself as if it was a sacred resource like fresh water. There is no concern or consideration given to the societal benefit or cost of any project, just, "Will it make a profit?"

The founders did not want to have a central bank as we have. They disallowed Fiat currency, which is all we have now, and wanted Treasury to serve as a central bank so it could serve the people without draining the economy. It was the British Central Bank that they revolted over.

Think if we ran a banking system on the Credit Union model? Everybody puts in what they have left over at the end of the month, everybody, corporations and individual, and the National H2 Utility. Lets say you want to build a yacht. Credit union looks at the project, 30+ people employed at a good wage for 3 years, enduring employment, good recreational resource. Yacht gets built and the credit union's interest in it is that it's a shared use asset for credit union members, everyone. When Taco Bell worker living in modest housing living a modest life gets their vacation, they can book one of these public assets for a week or a weekend. How much better do you think the Taco Bell worker would be if they got the same perks as everyone else?

It's really the toys and luxury items that cause the big rifts between have and have not. The Taco Bell worker does not envy the CEO's power nor his responsibility, what he envies is the luxuries, especially when it's the CEO of Taco Bell's luxuries. Thing about luxuries, even CEOs rarely get to enjoy them. I get far more use out a yacht than any owner lol. Any given luxury yacht could serve between 200 and 500 people a year on week long vacations and they get a yacht, not a cruise ship.

Think how many people a 182 can serve. We have lost that trade is about resources and have made it about money.

It's funny, I've been in this same discussion since my sophomore year at the University of Wisconsin, when I took a course called "Comparative Communism". It was fascinating, and put forth much of what you describe as a workable alternative to our effed-up economic world.

The only thing no one -- not you, and not that crazy professor -- could ever answer for me was this: Why would I want to be a CEO, and work a bajillion hours, if I could work at Taco Bell (to steal your example) and have access to the same perks?

Running a business is a *****. I spend way too much effort, for way too little reward, as it is -- if I had to work my usual 60 hour weeks for the same reward as those who were working 40, at a much less-taxing Taco Bell job, I would certainly quit doing what I'm doing.

So who would do the hard jobs? WHY would they do them? Answer: They would be left un-done.

For a fascinating examination of what happens when real Socialism/Communism is adapted by a society, read the history of the Amana Colonies in Iowa. To make a long story short, it worked well so long as the original idealistic zealots were alive and in charge -- but by the third generation they had to pay outsiders to harvest their grain, because NO ONE wanted to work. Soon thereafter, they voted themselves back into the real world.
 
It is SO FUNNY to see people who live off of the rich, damning capitalism. Just more stupidity, squared, and fed back.
 
Well, let's qualify our answers here. Don't equate my desire to own a single engine piston aircraft I fly to the tune of 150hrs/yr, with the sociopathy of the top 400 families holding on to capital equivalent to most Countries's GDP. Wealth which they hoard btw, as they cannot possibly circulate that capital numerically with enough velocity as the masses could if they were given access to it. There are orders of magnitude difference between my desire to self-actualize as an American middle-third wage slave prole and the level of wealth concentration resultant of sanctioned sociopathy at the top.

Making 30K at taco bell without the material affluence to afford the ability to exercise the discretionary pursuits desired by my level of intellectual self-awareness, is just not gonna cut it. I was happy as a child and dependent, having everything afforded to me as a consequence of the innocence of my childhood state. But that's an immature cerebral state and accepted as such. In contrast, when I worked for just subsistence costs right after college I was the unhappiest I've ever been in my life. I don't ever wish to go back to that time. Now that I doubled my income I find myself quite content. I have the ability to cover subsistence and the material affluence to pursue my self-actualization, which includes discretionary contributions to society mind you. I would love to make 300K, but to be frank it is NOT a current and active desire in my life. I'm happy at a 100K, as long as 100K continues to buy me my lifestyle for posterity.

But make no mistake, I'd rather collect welfare and entertain self-deprecating pursuits than break my back for 30K. I work so that I can afford to self-actualize. I do NOT work to afford to merely subsist. That would drive me to unproductive, even criminal behavior. I'm too intellectually advanced to tolerate such a deficient lifestyle. I rather be knocked in the head and brain damaged in a perennial state of unambitious childhood. There's no way I could be content merely subsisting. That sounds horrible. Admitting that does not make me a sociopath like the Koch brothers, et al. Let's not throw the baby with the bathwater here.


30K at Taco Bell? Where do fast food restaurants pay that much? Around here it's $8.50 per hour, no full time positions available, and in many cases, a flexible schedule is required, so it's very hard to work a second job.

More likely that Taco Bell employee envies silly things like healthcare and decent food, and particularly some of the security that comes with having some money in the bank and not fearing that a car repair is going to put you behind on the rent.
 
Much of it is fed to us by the media - "If you don't have THIS (insert whatever here) then you CANNOT possibly be happy and you CANNOT in any way be considered popular" - "If you cannot afford THIS then we would certainly be MORE then happy to offer financing so that you may have this sense of happiness"

Think for just one moment what chaos would exist if all the little people were truly free from debt ? The super wealthy could not be without the little guy being in debt. We MUST by all measures insure that the yoke of debt is firmly in place upon the shoulders of the little people or the world would surely grind to a halt.

Oh, and BTW the "Federal" Reserve Board is not by any means Federal - it is as it's always been merely a banking cartel.
 
It's funny, I've been in this same discussion since my sophomore year at the University of Wisconsin, when I took a course called "Comparative Communism". It was fascinating, and put forth much of what you describe as a workable alternative to our effed-up economic world.

The only thing no one -- not you, and not that crazy professor -- could ever answer for me was this: Why would I want to be a CEO, and work a bajillion hours, if I could work at Taco Bell (to steal your example) and have access to the same perks?

Running a business is a *****. I spend way too much effort, for way too little reward, as it is -- if I had to work my usual 60 hour weeks for the same reward as those who were working 40, at a much less-taxing Taco Bell job, I would certainly quit doing what I'm doing.

So who would do the hard jobs? WHY would they do them? Answer: They would be left un-done.

For a fascinating examination of what happens when real Socialism/Communism is adapted by a society, read the history of the Amana Colonies in Iowa. To make a long story short, it worked well so long as the original idealistic zealots were alive and in charge -- but by the third generation they had to pay outsiders to harvest their grain, because NO ONE wanted to work. Soon thereafter, they voted themselves back into the real world.


Simple, pride and sense of accomplishment. Plus you don't wok a gajillion hours, you work a reasonable human schedule of 20 a week. Most of these guys run nuts way harder than the job needs because they are (unnecessarily) micromanaging stress cases. Most of the time they are that way because they are protecting a scam. It's their own bad karma that gives them a heart attack.

People will do a very good job for little more than some recognition. THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN MONEY. The real question is why would you make someone CEO who is willing to throw away their own life to make money? Why do we want people with the wrong set of priorities setting the standards? Do we really want to continue on a selfish greed driven path? That is what has us here and now.

Besides which, my system would not eliminate personal wealth, just the need for it. If it's important to you to live like that, you are free to. The real question becomes 'Why do people want to live like that?' It's not really comfort, the lap of luxury really isn't any more comfortable than living modestly, in fact, it's often less comfortable as things are bought for esoteric reasons and are not really meant for use. So why? People are pretty much happy at most any economic station. When you analyze it down you'll conclude that desire to amass wealth is a serious mental illness.
 
What is unrestrained capitalism...if you mean free markets, then you'd be wrong. The freer the market, the more robust the economic activity.

Apparently you haven't noticed your electric rates since deregulation or the number of PRIVATELY OWNED toll roads and red light cameras. Don't get me wrong; I'm basically a libertarian, but I realize that humans are highly corruptable.
 
Simple, pride and sense of accomplishment. Plus you don't wok a gajillion hours, you work a reasonable human schedule of 20 a week. Most of these guys run nuts way harder than the job needs because they are (unnecessarily) micromanaging stress cases. Most of the time they are that way because they are protecting a scam. It's their own bad karma that gives them a heart attack.

People will do a very good job for little more than some recognition. THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN MONEY. The real question is why would you make someone CEO who is willing to throw away their own life to make money? Why do we want people with the wrong set of priorities setting the standards? Do we really want to continue on a selfish greed driven path? That is what has us here and now.

Besides which, my system would not eliminate personal wealth, just the need for it. If it's important to you to live like that, you are free to. The real question becomes 'Why do people want to live like that?' It's not really comfort, the lap of luxury really isn't any more comfortable than living modestly, in fact, it's often less comfortable as things are bought for esoteric reasons and are not really meant for use. So why? People are pretty much happy at most any economic station. When you analyze it down you'll conclude that desire to amass wealth is a serious mental illness.
Well, there is that. No one, for any amount of money, could pay me enough to work as hard as I do -- but I will gladly do it for laughably poor wages, because it is MINE.

So, somehow we need to retain private ownership of business -- while socializing access to the perks of wealth?

And, of course, without working more than 20 hours a week.

Methinks you haven't quite got all the bugs out. Let me know when you've found an economic and societal structure that takes human nature into account, and we shall continue this experiment.

Perhaps what we need to do is discuss changing human nature to fit your Utopian economic structure? Welcome to Marxist/Leninist theory, with a dash of eugenics thrown in for good measure.

None of which, BTW, I am necessarily opposed to. In the end, it's a laudable goal, and may represent humanity's best long-term survival option. I just don't think that society will ever change in this direction without massive coercion, along the lines of Nazi Germany, or the Stalinist USSR.. And we saw how well that worked out.
 
Yep, changing Human nature is the issue. It's been tried before, it's just so easy for people to be lead astray and frightened. Every major religion/social philosophy has taught the same basic lessons, we just never follow them. The 10 commandments are as violated today as the day Moses came off the mount, and every different movement all throughout the ages has had the same set of rules, but somehow there is always the guy that convinces everyone they don't need faith, "you need Gold!"

Whether you read these texts as honest accounts or parables is inconsequential, the outcome is the same, we violate all the rules for a peaceful prosperous society because we lack all faith, and the proof of lack of faith is in the requirement for money.

Here's an interesting experiment you can try Jay. Don't charge for your rooms. Put up a sign, "Welcome, Pay what you like." Show some faith, See how it works out.
 
Yep, changing Human nature is the issue. It's been tried before, it's just so easy for people to be lead astray and frightened. Every major religion/social philosophy has taught the same basic lessons, we just never follow them. The 10 commandments are as violated today as the day Moses came off the mount, and every different movement all throughout the ages has had the same set of rules, but somehow there is always the guy that convinces everyone they don't need faith, "you need Gold!"



Whether you read these texts as honest accounts or parables is inconsequential, the outcome is the same, we violate all the rules for a peaceful prosperous society because we lack all faith, and the proof of lack of faith is in the requirement for money.



Here's an interesting experiment you can try Jay. Don't charge for your rooms. Put up a sign, "Welcome, Pay what you like." Show some faith, See how it works out.


Are you pitching this to your boss about his yacht? Let me know when he hangs the sign out.

Why start with Jay? You can make a difference right now. Raise awareness. All that crap. First free yacht on the planet. I'm sure they'll go for it.

I'll tip ya $100 for a short ride, you get to cover the fuel.
 
Henning, you make some good points - You too Jay.
But your ivory tower professor who taught comparative communism has never set foot in the real world.
Many people who work at part time at taco hell, et. al. do work for a living but cannot make it on that small sum of money so qualify for extra help in the form of welfare and medicaid. They would cheerfully work full time at higher paying jobs and take no welfare if they could find the jobs. Low educational achievement and no skills beyond the strength of their backs make that outcome rare indeed. They are good people trapped in poverty.

Then there are the others (sigh) Ah yesss, the others.
They don't work. And they won't work. You cannot glue them to a job and have it stick. As an old emr doc, a jail doc, and the only doc in a rural poverty village for over 30 years I can rattle off the family surnames. I have pictures of me (smiling) in the birthing room with great grandma 45, grandma 30, momma 15, and newborn 5 days. Four generations on welfare on one room and the odds for that newborn breaking free of that culture are just about zero. Three generations in the exam room at the office were common to the point of being routine. And momma plus baby on welfare was half of my business.
Surprisingly, 30 plus years ago, it was common for the women to be married (becoming rare now). Anyway, the men were not employable. If they did manage to show up at the job 3 days a week it only took one phone call that the fish were running, or so and so had poached a deer and needed help to haul it home before the DNR found out, or that some acquaintance had come into enough money for some beer and party was starting - and they were gone buddy, gone.

"When you analyze it down you'll conclude that desire to amass wealth is a serious mental illness"
So says a man who owns and personally flies a multi engine aircraft - a position in life that way less than one half of one percent of the population can aspire to
Just pointing out the irony ;)
 
So says a man who owns and personally flies a multi engine aircraft - a position in life that way less than one half of one percent of the population can aspire to
Just pointing out the irony ;)


Pretty sure the insurance company owns it now don't they?

Henning wouldn't give up his salary and all he owns to start his little revolution. He's got great ideas... That are already documented in history by numerous philosophers. They're not new, and they haven't worked yet. But they make for nice fictional reading material.
 
Are you pitching this to your boss about his yacht? Let me know when he hangs the sign out.

Why start with Jay? You can make a difference right now. Raise awareness. All that crap. First free yacht on the planet. I'm sure they'll go for it.

I'll tip ya $100 for a short ride, you get to cover the fuel.
Actually, I do something like this every year. On Veterans Day -- every 11/11 -- we give the entire hotel away to veterans. All you need to do is show proof that you are either active duty or were honorably discharged, and poof! Your room is on the house.

Thankfully, many of these great folks add a day or two to their free stay, knowing that it will help. Lots of them buy our mugs or t-shirts, also in an effort to help. This is the charitable, helpful nature that makes our country so great.

And then, there is a tiny subset who get upset because we require either a credit card on file or a $50 deposit, to serve as a damage deposit. (Hey, I'm crazy, not stupid.) These are usually the same people who order the maximum amount of bakery (for their delivered breakfast) and select coffee AND tea, AND decaf, AND sugar, sweetener, creamer -- and anything else they can pack up and take home. They flip cigarette butts into the parking lots (ignoring the butt receptacles), trash the towels and pillow cases, and bring beer bottles and pets to the pool.

In short, they are the azzwipes, much as you will see everywhere in society. They are the ones who force the entire system to adopt restrictive, stupid laws, because they just don't play well with others.

This, by the way, is the real reason people pay $200/night for a hotel room. It's not for the room, or for the fancy lobby -- it's so you don't have to rub elbows with the azzwipes of the world.
 
This, by the way, is the real reason people pay $200/night for a hotel room. It's not for the room, or for the fancy lobby -- it's so you don't have to rub elbows with the azzwipes of the world.


That's the low end of the spectrum of azzwipes.

The way to avoid the other end of the spectrum of azzwipes is to stay off of the yachts. ;)
 
Pretty sure the insurance company owns it now don't they?

Henning wouldn't give up his salary and all he owns to start his little revolution. He's got great ideas... That are already documented in history by numerous philosophers. They're not new, and they haven't worked yet. But they make for nice fictional reading material.

I own nothing to give up, I don't need to own anything. When I started out I worked old schooners for no pay, only room, board, and tips. We all worked hard and with pride on those boats. Most of my money I made doing photography. I'd also gladly set up a system that will pay for the country for no pay, I'll give it away, give me three years and all the resource I ask for.
 
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Actually, I do something like this every year. On Veterans Day -- every 11/11 -- we give the entire hotel away to veterans. All you need to do is show proof that you are either active duty or were honorably discharged, and poof! Your room is on the house.

Thankfully, many of these great folks add a day or two to their free stay, knowing that it will help. Lots of them buy our mugs or t-shirts, also in an effort to help. This is the charitable, helpful nature that makes our country so great.

And then, there is a tiny subset who get upset because we require either a credit card on file or a $50 deposit, to serve as a damage deposit. (Hey, I'm crazy, not stupid.) These are usually the same people who order the maximum amount of bakery (for their delivered breakfast) and select coffee AND tea, AND decaf, AND sugar, sweetener, creamer -- and anything else they can pack up and take home. They flip cigarette butts into the parking lots (ignoring the butt receptacles), trash the towels and pillow cases, and bring beer bottles and pets to the pool.

In short, they are the azzwipes, much as you will see everywhere in society. They are the ones who force the entire system to adopt restrictive, stupid laws, because they just don't play well with others.

This, by the way, is the real reason people pay $200/night for a hotel room. It's not for the room, or for the fancy lobby -- it's so you don't have to rub elbows with the azzwipes of the world.

Unfortunately, with the oil/gas boom, that's no longer a discriminator. Much of the hospitality business and service economy in Shreveport, where I was stationed before I transferred to Texas (thank God), is all about catering to these $10K/mo nouveau riche rednecks. My exwife still works in landscaping up there and though it kept her employed through the recession, the site consultations were hilarious. South Louisiana trophy wife with her roots color sticking about halfway down her stripper hair yells across the driveway: "Hey billy, you mind moving your six chrome-wheeled muddy ATVs and your work truck from the [$150K] front yard? This lady has to take some measurements.." 450K brand new construction mind you, the ol' money folks gasping on the corner lol. :rofl:

Money doesn't buy you much these days, education and a long term economic outlook is the only escape from that social deficit. Fortunes change. Education and values are forever.
 
I own nothing to give up, I don't need to own anything. When I started out I worked old schooners for no pay, only room, board, and tips. We all worked hard and with pride on those boats. Most of my money I made doing photography.

And whoever owned those boats still held the title to them and sold them for whatever they were worth when they became a liability instead of an asset. Or at least not a massive money hole in the water if they were making their living elsewhere and keeping the boat as a "labor of love".

That they were able to find people like yourself willing to work that cheap to keep the thing afloat, is impressive.


I'd also gladly set up a system that will pay for the country for no pay, I'll give it away, give me three years and all the resource I ask for.

Huh. Waddaya know! I've heard of that Ponzi scheme before.

I already told ya. Figure out how to make the politicians rich, they'll hold a gun to the rest of our heads and give you all the resources you need.

And once it's up and running they'll still charge us all to use it. Because at their core, that's who they ARE.

You can't magic away sociopaths who want power. Well, unless your plan includes shooting all of them, but that would mean you're the next sociopath. You can present the best possible technological plan (and yours has significant holes in it) to produce electrical power ever devised... A sociopath hiding behind the PC terms "politician" or "businessman" will be along to take it from you by force and control it.

That's what control freaks do. And that isn't going to change while either of us is alive. I suspect never. But since I'll be dead before then, I won't care. :)
 
This, by the way, is the real reason people pay $200/night for a hotel room. It's not for the room, or for the fancy lobby -- it's so you don't have to rub elbows with the azzwipes of the world.

Only it doesn't work....$200/night just changes the flavor of the azzwipe...my last stay in Dallas is a prime example - guy decided to have breakfast in the cafe in his pajamas. He refused to be seated in a booth - had to be out in the middle.
 
Only it doesn't work....$200/night just changes the flavor of the azzwipe...my last stay in Dallas is a prime example - guy decided to have breakfast in the cafe in his pajamas. He refused to be seated in a booth - had to be out in the middle.


ROFL... Joe Walsh's song comes to mind... :)
 
Just because other attempts have failed, and really there has only been one generation of attempts at socialism, don't make it sound like it's been tried forever. Well, Jesus tried, but they killed him for it, since then, nada.
The whole point of failure is to learn and correct the errors. Very few things actually work on the first try. Besides, Communism never had a chance to try to work since all the resource had to go into fighting wars instead of building society. In the Cold War era East Block everyone was rich, they had plenty of money, they just had nothing to buy with that money because all the resources had to go to the arms race. We were just a giant economic bully of capitalism that wanted not only to not let such ideas spread, we wanted their resources and access to their markets. We made damned sure that any kind of subversive communists weren't going to be over here. Thing is, what does Communism actually subvert?

What failed wasn't communism or socialism or even capitalism, what failed is the human spirit, and we really need to fix that problem soon.

So what's Cubas excuse? They have had a total of 0 wars and yet the island has no economy and is falling apart. The ongoing experiment into socialism/communism has been running for 55yrs now. The people all work for the same thing(nothing) and all have access to the same perks(nothing). I think I like the way it works in the US, you can have anything you want all you have to do is WORK for it.
 
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ROFL... Joe Walsh's song comes to mind... :)

Life's been good....as I sit in a hotel in Riverton, WY...ribs and tips were good in Casper on the drive up...no one in pajamas but a few roughnecks in the bar
 
Taking care of people who see things being given out and would rather get those things than work, is a bad thing.

The only people I know on welfare are single mothers (except a cousin who got blown up in our foreign wars). I know a couple other single mothers who would be on welfare were it not for familial support. Not how I want things, but a young woman can be stuck for a long time with the results of a momentary poor choice. I for one would not ask a woman to give up her child under any circumstances, works too hard against biology. Certainly don't like the thought of punishing children with starvation because of a poor choice by their parents.

The only thing about welfare of which I am utterly certain is that we as a nation spend less on it than our military spends on toilet paper.
 
And whoever owned those boats still held the title to them and sold them for whatever they were worth when they became a liability instead of an asset. Or at least not a massive money hole in the water if they were making their living elsewhere and keeping the boat as a "labor of love".

That they were able to find people like yourself willing to work that cheap to keep the thing afloat, is impressive.




Huh. Waddaya know! I've heard of that Ponzi scheme before.

I already told ya. Figure out how to make the politicians rich, they'll hold a gun to the rest of our heads and give you all the resources you need.

And once it's up and running they'll still charge us all to use it. Because at their core, that's who they ARE.

You can't magic away sociopaths who want power. Well, unless your plan includes shooting all of them, but that would mean you're the next sociopath. You can present the best possible technological plan (and yours has significant holes in it) to produce electrical power ever devised... A sociopath hiding behind the PC terms "politician" or "businessman" will be along to take it from you by force and control it.

That's what control freaks do. And that isn't going to change while either of us is alive. I suspect never. But since I'll be dead before then, I won't care. :)

Unless you're already pushing 65 and are in bad health, I wouldn't be counting on it. I suspect never as well, but the job is to keep trying, so I do.
 
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