Women Open To Combat Roles

[JB1842]

We did? There's some revisionist history for you. We didn't get into WWII until after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor following which Hitler declared war on the US. The first place we went in the ETO was Africa to secure the Mid East oil fields. The PTO was over the Java oil fields and SE Asia rubber plantations and the Japanese bombed Pearl so our fleet couldn't defend our bankers' investments there. We gave a damned about the Jewish situation in Europe not until the soldiers came across the camps at the end of the war, not that we didn't know about it.

I know my history. But Germany was seen as a threat long before Japan was, which why our first focus was defeating Hitler. We were shipping war supplies to England years before Pearl Harbor. While I agree we didn't care directly about the concentration camps, it doesn't change the fact that our goal was to defeat Hitler, and a lot of Americans were killed during WWII.

 

[JB1842]

Not taking sides here. But just as a historical clarification, Israel did not have a military (or even exist) during the period to which you refer.

Military, no. But those 5 million Jews Hitler killed could've put up more than token resistance.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Panetta's move expands the Pentagon's action nearly a year ago to open about 14,500 combat positions to women, nearly all of them in the Army. This decision could open more than 230,000 jobs, many in Army and Marine infantry units, to women.

Senator John McCain, R-Ariz., said he supports Panetta's decision.

"The fact is that American women are already serving in harm's way today all over the world and in every branch of our armed forces," he said in a statement. "Many have made the ultimate sacrifice, and our nation owes them a deep debt of gratitude."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/panetta-opens-combat-roles-to-women/#ixzz2Iv6n9w51

 

[Ted]

BTW- You're making me feel dated in my thinking, maybe that's a healthy thing.

I think the part we're having a hard time doing right now as a society is balancing between the old thoughts of "A woman's place is in the kitchen" with not restricting women from doing what they want while maintaining gentlemanly tendencies that you and I were raised on.

 

[Henning]

I know my history. But Germany was seen as a threat long before Japan was, which I why our first focus was defeating Hitler We were shipping war supplies to England years before Pearl Harbor. While I agree we didn't care directly about the concentration camps, it doesn't change the fact that our goal was to defeat Hitler, and a lot of Americans were killed during WWII.

Right, our industry made money arming everyone through whatever they could afford making up the difference through tax dollars and War Bonds, but didn't get involved in the ETO for several years after Czechoslovakia until Hitler declared war on us. Hitler did not provide a threat to us until Rommel got too close to the Mid East oil fields, only then did we get worried.

 

[roncachamp]

I know my history. But Germany was seen as a threat long before Japan was, which why our first focus was defeating Hitler. We were shipping war supplies to England years before Pearl Harbor. While I agree we didn't care directly about the concentration camps, it doesn't change the fact that our goal was to defeat Hitler, and a lot of Americans were killed during WWII.

If by "we" you mean the US government you are incorrect. Foriegn arms sales were embargoed before November 1939, military aid by the US government began with passage of the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941.

 

[Henning]

If by "we" you mean the US government you are incorrect. Foriegn arms sales were embargoed before November 1939, military aid by the US government began with passage of the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941.

Interesting how parts were still manufactured and shipped though. Not that this is particularly a new thing. The Lusitania which got the US involved in WWI exploded out wards well away from and in excess of where a boiler would have caused the damage.

 

[steingar]

Military, no. But those 5 million Jews Hitler killed could've put up more than token resistance.

Many did, despite the fact that they were all civilians. Obviously you never heard about what happened at the Warsaw ghetto, which was far more than just "token" resistance. And many women counted themselves among the partisan fighters.

Easily the most cockeyed argument I've seen yet. So again, Israeli women have counted themselves among the soldiery, and have acquitted themselves quite well in much tougher fights than we've experienced in the modern era. Moreover, American women have already served in combat and been captured, and the military is still here. Still don't see the big deal.

 

[Henning]

Under true threat, the females of any species are the dogged and determined fighter. Males fight for breeding rights, females fight for their young.

 

[JB1842]

If by "we" you mean the US government you are incorrect. Foriegn arms sales were embargoed before November 1939, military aid by the US government began with passage of the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941.

You are right about the time frame with Lend-Lease. But you do realize that there is more to war supplies than weapons, right?

 

[Henning]

You are right about the time frame with Lend-Lease. But you do realize that there is more to war supplies than weapons, right?

Yep, parts and profit.

 

[JB1842]

Many did, despite the fact that they were all civilians. Obviously you never heard about what happened at the Warsaw ghetto, which was far more than just "token" resistance. And many women counted themselves among the partisan fighters.

Easily the most cockeyed argument I've seen yet. So again, Israeli women have counted themselves among the soldiery, and have acquitted themselves quite well in much tougher fights than we've experienced in the modern era. Moreover, American women have already served in combat and been captured, and the military is still here. Still don't see the big deal.

The uprising on the Warsaw Ghetto didn't happen until years after they were rounded up. Their effort was valiant, but they eventually failed. Would the atrocities of the Holocuast have happened if more people stood up to Hitler from the start? I don't know. Women have been in combat in our military. Fighting against an convoy ambush or from behind sandbags from your perimeter is still far different from being in a forward operating base and being on foot patrol. Just delcaring a lift on a combat ban for equality reasons is not the way to do things.

 

[Henning]

The uprising on the Warsaw Ghetto didn't happen until years after they were rounded up. Their effort was valiant, but they eventually failed. Would the atrocities of the Holocuast have happened if more people stood up to Hitler from the start? I don't know. Women have been in combat in our military. Fighting against an convoy ambush or from behind sandbags from your perimeter is still far different from being in a forward operating base and being on foot patrol. Just delcaring a lift on a combat ban for equality reasons is not the way to do things.

I agree, we should just get out of wars we have no business in and let the women fight the real threats.

 

[JB1842]

Yep, parts and profit.

Yep. There was a "cash and carry" clause in the nuetrality acts of the 1930's. If you had cash, you could get stuff. There is way too much involved in the other reasons for the war, such as the military-industrial machine, to get into it on the internet. War profiteers will always think war is good as long as they get their pockets lined with money.

 

[Skylane81E]

Nice analogy, but off point as well.

I'm more interested in hearing from our combat veterans here as to what they think of this development.

I am not a vet but will share a story told me by a Marine.

His unit was a field MP unit and as they were not a "combat" unit (saw plenty however) they were a mixed gender group.

He reported that while in action they were as affective as any all male unit.

He also reported that they spent significantly less time in action as they had to be frequently rotated to the rear for hygiene.

Take from this what you will.

 

[roncachamp]

You are right about the time frame with Lend-Lease. But you do realize that there is more to war supplies than weapons, right?

Yes, I do. Are you saying the US government was shipping war supplies other than weapons to England prior to passage of the Lend-Lease Act?

 

[TMetzinger]

Norplant

Off the market (it was my plan for my daughter when she got to the age where that would be an issue). A good potential solution, though.

 

[JB1842]

Yes, I do. Are you saying the US government was shipping war supplies other than weapons to England prior to passage of the Lend-Lease Act?

Yep. Cash and carry. It was a policy passed in 1939. It's also how Japan was able to build their military. They bought rough materials from us which they used to build planes and ships.

 

[Henning]

Yes, I do. Are you saying the US government was shipping war supplies other than weapons to England prior to passage of the Lend-Lease Act?

Well, how does 'Other than to England' constitute an embargo when England can get them and redistribute them where ever they please?

 

[JB1842]

I am not a vet but will share a story told me by a Marine.

His unit was a field MP unit and as they were not a "combat" unit (saw plenty however) they were a mixed gender group.

He reported that while in action they were as affective as any all male unit.

He also reported that they spent significantly less time in action as they had to be frequently rotated to the rear for hygiene.

Take from this what you will.

There is more to combat than pulling a trigger. That's what most people don't realize, and what your friend was probably referring to.

 

[Skylane81E]

unless we Americans want to admit we aren't made of the same high quality stuff as Israelis.

Lets be honest, we aren't. Man(or woman) for man the IDF would whip us like school kids. I mean no disrespect to our armed forces, but we have not been dealing with decade upon decade of war at home.

 

[N801BH]

First they let girls fly planes..

And now they want to let them out on the battlefield....

Has anyone called Archie Bunker and told him about this..

 

[roncachamp]

Yep. There was a "cash and carry" clause in the nuetrality acts of the 1930's. If you had cash, you could get stuff. There is way too much involved in the other reasons for the war, such as the military-industrial machine, to get into it on the internet. War profiteers will always think war is good as long as they get their pockets lined with money.

That appeared in the Neutrality Act of 1937, it was not in the Neutrality Acts of 1935 and 1936.

 

[roncachamp]

Yep. Cash and carry. It was a policy passed in 1939. It's also how Japan was able to build their military. They bought rough materials from us which they used to build planes and ships.

Nope. Cash and carry allowed belligerent nations to purchase materials from US firms, the US government provided no funds or transport.

 

[roncachamp]

Well, how does 'Other than to England' constitute an embargo when England can get them and redistribute them where ever they please?

I don't know what you mean by 'Other than to England'. Before the Neutrality Act of 1937, which was the first to have the "Cash and Carry" provision, these materials were embargoed; US firms were not allowed to deal with belligerent nations. Cash and Carry permitted sales, but the US government did not provide funds or transport as it did under Lend-Lease.

 

[JB1842]

That appeared in the Neutrality Act of 1937, it was not in the Neutrality Acts of 1935 and 1936.

The Neutraility Act of 1937 was not in effect at the time of the most recent cash and carry, which is why it was Roosevelt pushed for it in 1939. But you are correct that it wasn't a new concept.

 

[JB1842]

Nope. Cash and carry allowed belligerent nations to purchase materials from US firms, the US government provided no funds or transport.

That was only because of the findings of the Nye Committee. The government didn't want to be seen as bowing down to industry so they wanted to stay neutral, so they didn't directly sell materials. The U.S. government wanted to keep up this charade of neutrality while still "allowing" private firms to sell materials.

 

[steingar]

The uprising on the Warsaw Ghetto didn't happen until years after they were rounded up. Their effort was valiant, but they eventually failed. Would the atrocities of the Holocuast have happened if more people stood up to Hitler from the start? I don't know.

How someone can be dumb enough to compare people not rising up against their duly elected government and women in the US military is beyond me.

Women have been in combat in our military. Fighting against an convoy ambush or from behind sandbags from your perimeter is still far different from being in a forward operating base and being on foot patrol. Just delcaring a lift on a combat ban for equality reasons is not the way to do things.

Again, the Israelis have been doing this for a long time. The only argument you can make (and an utterly pathetic one at that) is that the Jews didn't resist the Holocaust. Since you've nothing more cogent to add I'll have to leave the counterargument to others.

 

[JB1842]

How someone can be dumb enough to compare people not rising up against their duly elected government and women in the US military is beyond me.



Again, the Israelis have been doing this for a long time. The only argument you can make (and an utterly pathetic one at that) is that the Jews didn't resist the Holocaust. Since you've nothing more cogent to add I'll have to leave the counterargument to others.

How someone can not realize that the thread went off on a tangent and other topics were discussed is beyond me. Someone wanted to state that the IDF was better than our military. As a veteran, I take offense to that and defended it. While my analogy might have offended some, it does IMHO raise a valid argument. And if our country wasn't one of the main suppliers of weapons to the IDF during the infancy of their country and still one of their main supporters, I doubt they would still exist.

 

[roncachamp]

That was only because of the findings of the Nye Committee. The government didn't want to be seen as bowing down to industry so they wanted to stay neutral, so they didn't directly sell materials. The U.S. government wanted to keep up this charade of neutrality while still "allowing" private firms to sell materials.

Private firms weren't allowed to sell materials previously.

 

[JB1842]

Private firms weren't allowed to sell materials previously.

Maybe not, but the cash and carry provision was in the different neutrality acts of the 30's.

 

[Gerhardt]

Squaring off any female assigned to a combat role against anyone here rallying against it, my money's on the soldier. I think we'll find that most will perform exemplary.

 

[roncachamp]

Maybe not, but the cash and carry provision was in the different neutrality acts of the 30's.

Yes, as I said previously, it appeared in the Neutrality Act of 1937, it was not in the Neutrality Acts of 1935 and 1936.

 

[JB1842]

Yes, as I said previously, it appeared in the Neutrality Act of 1937, it was not in the Neutrality Acts of 1935 and 1936.

Going to have to read up more on it. The whole build up to WWII is a very intersting story, and highly ignored in schools today. Hitler started WWII, Nazis did the Holocaust, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the Allies won. That's about all I can remember being taught.

 

[steingar]

How someone can not realize that the thread went off on a tangent and other topics were discussed is beyond me. Someone wanted to state that the IDF was better than our military.

No, someone said that the IDF had women soldiers going back a long way and quite a few wars, and that their duty was no lighter than that of our more local variety.

As a veteran, I take offense to that and defended it. While my analogy might have offended some, it does IMHO raise a valid argument.

Actually, no it doesn't. Professional soldiers and civilians are not directly comparable. I'm not too thrilled with your antisemitism, either.

And if our country wasn't one of the main suppliers of weapons to the IDF during the infancy of their country and still one of their main supporters, I doubt they would still exist.

The Israelies carved out their own country with no help from anyone, including us. If you talk about the Yom Kippur War, you may have a valid point.

 

[N801BH]

Going to have to read up more on it. The whole build up to WWII is a very intersting story, and highly ignored in schools today. Hitler started WWII, Nazis did the Holocaust, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the Allies won. That's about all I can remember being taught.

The bad part is each administration seems to be able to "massage" the facts in school text books to fit their agenda...a 100 years from now, kids reading books will probably not get even a hint of truth to history, and what REALLY happened....

 

[JB1842]

No, someone said that the IDF had women soldiers going back a long way and quite a few wars, and that their duty was no lighter than that of our more local variety.



Actually, no it doesn't. Professional soldiers and civilians are not directly comparable. I'm not too thrilled with your antisemitism, either.



The Israelies carved out their own country with no help from anyone, including us. If you talk about the Yom Kippur War, you may have a valid point.

I'm not antisemitic. Sorry you feel that way. And the Israelies did not carve out their own country. This thing called United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was responsible. And professional soldiers and civilians aren't directly comparable? I think our revolutionary war shoots holes into that theory, and look at the going ons in Egypt, Libya, and Syria. Look at the problems the Soviets and our country has had in Afghanistan. The IDF are some bad mo-fo's, but our military is better.

 

[Henning]

Going to have to read up more on it. The whole build up to WWII is a very intersting story, and highly ignored in schools today. Hitler started WWII, Nazis did the Holocaust, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the Allies won. That's about all I can remember being taught.

Even that's not true, Mussolini started WWII in Ethiopia in 1929 if you want to go back to the beginning, and if you want to go back a bit further you could even say the French started it at Versailles.
As for the Pacific Theater, look at the history of the Asian Sphere of Influence and what the Japanese were fighting for and against.

 

[JB1842]

Even that's not true, Mussolini started WWII in Ethiopia in 1929 if you want to go back to the beginning, and if you want to go back a bit further you could even say the French started it at Versailles.
As for the Pacific Theater, look at the history of the Asian Sphere of Influence and what the Japanese were fighting for and against.

\

True. There is a lot more that history left out. You could even argue that WWII didn't end, just that the enemies changed sides and the name was changed to the Cold War.

 

[steingar]

I'm not antisemitic. Sorry you feel that way.

And I never said the IDF was any better than our local boys. But claiming there was something wrong with Jewish civilians because they didn't overthrow their lawful government in Nazi Germany smells of it. Lots to that story, though I doubt much is known to you.

And the Israelies did not carve out their own country. This thing called United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was responsible.

And that just isn't true. Just because the UN mandates something doesn't make it happen. In the case of Israel, it was Jewish fighters with their boots on the ground, and not the useless UN.

And professional soldiers and civilians aren't directly comparable? I think our revolutionary war shoots holes into that theory, and look at the going ons in Egypt, Libya, and Syria.

Soldiering in the Revolutionary war was not what it is today. And if you look at what our folks do in these conflicts, the larger part is training. No, civilians and soldiers are not directly comparable. And saying women shouldn't be in the military because the Jewish citizens of Nazi Germany were victimized borders on patent nonsense.

Look at the problems the Soviets and our country has had in Afghanistan. The IDF are some bad mo-fo's, but our military is better.

Seems like both invaded, had potshots taken at them by locals, and left under internal pressure. I don't see that big a difference, to be honest. Then again, no one had really been able to conquer that country since Alexander the Great, so I don't think we should feel that badly.