Wings of Hope Fall 2018 Raffle airplane announced

Timbeck2 said:
No good deed goes unpunished here on PoA. All the man wanted to do was make people aware of what they may be getting into. I did that once.


Once
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I don't know. Overall, I think the peanut gallery has done an admirable job of trying to understand all sides. But it is difficult when you have previously had faith in one party, and only the other party has had their side heard.

I have no reason not to believe Hamish. But in my life, I have often formed an opinion after hearing one side, and then had to reconsider when I heard the other side.
 
I get it. The taxes on the plane are 12,500, plus the $195 ticket price. If I get 128 hours out of it, I'm ahead. If I have to junk it after the 128th hour, then I'm ok.

I have the feeling that if I had my own plane, I would fly a whole lot more than I do now. Win, win, win....that's two wins for me ;)
 
I agreed with your reasoning initially. I was wrong.
bflynn said:
I get it. The taxes on the plane are 12,500, plus the $195 ticket price. If I get 128 hours out of it, I'm ahead. If I have to junk it after the 128th hour, then I'm ok.

I have the feeling that if I had my own plane, I would fly a whole lot more than I do now. Win, win, win....that's two wins for me ;)
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HamishTHaggis said:
Admittedly, there is an element of
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Thank you for the warning about inspections on aircraft won in a raffle. I've never bought a plane, but everyone always says you need to get your own pre-buy inspection, and not from the shop that maintains the plane. I'd never considered you'd need a pre-acceptance inspection from an airplane you won in a raffle, but that sounds essential after your tale of woe.

Its possible that Ken Pederson will be able to find some resolution that is acceptable to all parties involved. I certainly hope so.
Good luck.

I'll try to remember to buy a raffle ticket Monday.
 
HamishTHaggis said:
I agreed with your reasoning initially. I was wrong.
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You were wrong because....you didn't get 128 hours out of your airplane before you had to sell it? You wound up paying more than $100/hour for your flight time?
 
Any chance you can claim a loss on the aircraft and recover the taxes paid as a result of winning the raffle?

If you can recover most of the tax and sell the plane for more than the cost of repairs you may come out OK.
 
@TigerGene For what I'd expect to be able to sell the airplane for, I won't come out ahead. Ahead of the current outstanding bill alone, maybe. But overall, pretty sure I'd have been better off renting. It's pretty painful to have a steady flow money into a hangar and insurance for a plane that can't fly. As I said before, had there been no offer to cover the costs, I'd either have made other arrangements before approving the work, or sold the plane as it was or for parts. That likely would not have been so bad, but it's not where we are. With the work done and bill outstanding, and with the information I have, unless someone offers rather more than I expect for it, I don't see how I come out ahead on this without WoH standing by their offer.

@bflynn Had I sold the plane rather than repairing all of this, it's conceivable that I would have still been ahead on the whole deal. But you're not accounting for the fact that older airplanes often need more than expected maintenance, particularly after they have been grounded for a while. Obviously don't know that this is true for ALL the planes WoH raffles, but I suspect most have been largely stationary for a while. Mine had been non-flying for a number of years, and needed 2-3 times the average expected maintenance costs in our first 18 months, as compared to other 172s - largely this was replacing or repairing older parts (in addition to the. Then when we found this degree of work was needed, I started looking for information to decide how to address it. WoH stepped up and said they'd take care of it, so work went ahead. So looking at a raffle...as I said, my advice is to ask questions, verify anything you're told, and run all the numbers carefully. Will the next winner come out ahead on the deal? I suspect probably, but not necessarily and I did not.
 
How is the income tax for winning the raffle paid? Does the seller (WOH) collect it or do you pay it when you file with the IRS at tax time?

From reading their rules, it sounded like they collect a hefty tax when you pick up the plane. I am interested in knowing how the value of the plane is determined. Obviously, in your case, the true value was much lower than they thought.

If you paid income withholding tax at the point of sale, can you now claim a credit for the difference in estimated value and actual value?

Sounds like the WOH raffle is very much like a blind auction. No telling what you will get or even if you would want it. It’s a shame that they present the aircraft as something terrific when in fact it may not be.
 
HamishTHaggis said:
@scorpio I didn't make a request for payment. I made a request for information. They offered payment, then backed away after the fact. That's the whole point.
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Prove it. Post the entire communication publicly for review.

I’m expected to believe, on your word alone, that with 53 total posts here, your story is factually correct?

Realize that WoH, a charitable organization, could very well stand to shutter their entire operation due to the damage to their brand you’re doing. That may do nothing to make you whole, but it’s obvious who you’re most interested in serving.

I get it; for some reason you (maybe) have a big mx bill. It could be an estimate for all I know.

I’ve happily bought at least one ticket a year as long as I’ve known about WoH. Except the year I was in AFG. I’ll continue to support WoH.

For the regulars, think about this: somewhere down the line, someone that bought Cloud Nine’s 414 can put Ted out of business with the same words from SGOTI.

Isn’t the first words a lawyer says is shut up and don’t talk about the case?

I don’t buy one bit of it.
 
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TCABM said:
Prove it. Post the entire communication publicly for review.

I’m expected to believe, on your word alone, that with 53 total posts here, your story is factually correct?

Realize that WoH, a charitable organization, could very well stand to shutter their entire operation due to the damage to their brand you’re doing. That may do nothing to make you whole, but it’s obvious who you’re most interested in serving.

I get it; for some reason you (maybe) have a big mx bill. It could be an estimate for all I know.

I’ve happily bought at least one ticket a year as long as I’ve known about WoH. Except the year I was in AFG. I’ll continue to support WoH.

For the regulars, think about this: somewhere down the line, someone that bought Cloud Nine’s 414 can put Ted out of business with the same words from SGOTI.

Isn’t the first words a lawyer says is shut up and don’t talk about the case?

I don’t buy one bit of it.
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I buy that it's half the story. And none of it seems particularly unbelievable or outlandish. But FWIW, it's one person's biased experience, and could serve as a cautionary tale for someone else who isn't going into the raffle open eyed. Someone here said they didn't even think an inspection would be necessary on a won airplane, and this has changed their view. I think that's healthy, really.

Do I believe that Hamish's accounting of the facts is completely true? No. But I do believe it's his truth. And I'm sure WoH has their truth. And the real truth is somewhere in the middle.

The only thing I'm wondering is if Hamish was born in the Denver area. I think Nate may have a long lost son.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
buy your tickets this am so they will do raffle and I can get my plane.

Thanks,
 
Ken Pedersen said:
Sorry to be late in chiming in.....been preoccupied with visiting grandkids. Meanwhile, back to your questions: I'm a purchasing volunteer at Wings and I just bought the new Garmin avionics for this plane. They're not yet installed but will be in place at the time of the raffle's drawing. By zero time engine it means exactly that, i.e., a new (remanufactured to "new" specs) engine, not zero time SMOH. We even plan to break it in for you! I'll try to check in more often to answer any other questions, OK? ....and mega-thanks for your continued support of our Medical Relief & Air Transport Program — so win or lose, you know your purchase is changing and saving lives.
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@Ken Pedersen, not to add to the drama here, but a completely innocent question -- any chance you can share the model of the new Garmin Avionics that are in the plane? I'm just curious -- as I'm sure are many others! Thanks!
 
ChemGuy said:
buy your tickets this am so they will do raffle
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I tried but it was sold out before I got online. Seems like it was much quicker this year. Anyone else think they were on early enough but got shut out?
 
Ryanb said:
Oh! I really like that! I could see myself flying that beauty. Wish they would include some interior shots.
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It only has one door. Not for me...:rolleyes: A two door Beech might be worth it..:)
 
awwww... scrap!!!

Early AM brain was focused on getting ready to learn to fly the club Bonanza. Didn't remember the raffle until now... and sold out.

Good luck to those who did purchase a ticket!!!
 
Any idea what the plane is valued at? Or where the valuation comes from? That seems like a pretty high amount of withholding.

"Any taxes that may be due because you have won this prize are your responsibility. Appropriate reporting to the winner and IRS will be provided. In order to award the prize, the winner must complete all documents including FAA Aircraft Registration Application, IRS Form W-9 Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification, Affidavit and Release, and other documents required to take possession of the prize. Winner must receive the prize at a location determined by Wings of Hope, Inc at its sole discretion. Winner is solely responsible for all taxes (including federal, state, and local and or income), registration, insurance and other expenses incurred with claiming the prize. The winner will receive an IRS Form W-2G from Wings of Hope, Inc. (for the calendar year the prize was awarded) for the total value of the prize determined by Wings of Hope, Inc. If a winner chooses to forfeit his/her prize and does not receive a Form W-2G he/she must do so prior to receiving the prize. The IRS requires withholding for non-cash prizes with a value exceeding $5000.00 after deducting the cost of the winner’s ticket. The winner pays the withholding tax to Wings of Hope, Inc. at the rate of 25% of the prize value"
 
  1. The Grand Prize is a 1972 Piper Cherokee PA-28-180. This beautiful Cherokee will be delivered with a zero-time engine, and Garmin avionics – GMA 345 Audio Panel, GTN650 GPS/Com/Nav/MFD, GNC 255A Com/Nav, GTX 345 Transponder with ADS-B In/Out Receiver and GI-106B Course Deviation Indicator. This will allow the traffic and weather to be displayed on an iPad. This plane is valued at $49,735. Prize must be claimed by December 31, 2018.
 
You mean that after this thread, you folks still bought tickets? WTF is wrong with you people?!
:eek:


I for one didn’t buy any tickets.







I was too late. :(
 
SkyDog58 said:
You mean that after this thread, you folks still bought tickets? WTF is wrong with you people?!
:eek:
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I bought in. Regardless of the thread, if I was the winner, the first thing I'd do is hang a for sale sign on it. My favorite color of airplane is yellow but my favorite color of money is green. :D
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I bought in. Regardless of the thread, if I was the winner, the first thing I'd do is hang a for sale sign on it. My favorite color of airplane is yellow but my favorite color of money is green. :D
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What kind of pilot are you?! First thing you do (aside from the prebuy/etc.) is go fly her! Hang the for sale sign after you get it home if that's the end goal.
 
First thing to do is have your mechanic thoroughly inspect the airplane and logs.

Then accept the aircraft and pay WOH the IRS 25% tax, $12,433.75, and pay sales tax if any.

Then fly it home and sell it if desired.
 
TigerGene said:
First thing to do is have your mechanic thoroughly inspect the airplane and logs.

Then accept the aircraft and pay WOH the IRS 25% tax, $12,433.75, and pay sales tax if any.

Then fly it home and sell it if desired.
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Eff that. Glance at the plane as you walk to it. Kick the tires. Fly that beyotch home...
 
I know the tix are sold out and I admire anyone that uses aircraft in a charitable cause but...

Isn't that a terrible mathematical return??? On the order of spending over $5 to win $1? You would be better off to buy $75 worth of scratch-offs with a $50k payout each. More chance of winning the $50k than winning this $50k airplane.
 
alfadog said:
I know the tix are sold out and I admire anyone that uses aircraft in a charitable cause but...

Isn't that a terrible mathematical return??? On the order of spending over $5 to win $1? You would be better off to buy $75 worth of scratch-offs with a $50k payout each. More chance of winning the $50k than winning this $50k airplane.
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I don’t understand your math.
 
alfadog said:
I know the tix are sold out and I admire anyone that uses aircraft in a charitable cause but...

Isn't that a terrible mathematical return??? On the order of spending over $5 to win $1? You would be better off to buy $75 worth of scratch-offs with a $50k payout each. More chance of winning the $50k than winning this $50k airplane.
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Terrible return for who? WOH gets $300,000 (slightly less depending on how many pirchase 3 tickets at a discount). Ticket purchasers get a 1 in 4,000 (0.025%) chance for each $75 ticket sold. Buy 3 and its 0.0749%. Checked my states odds for a $50,000 scratchoff and they are typically 1 in 2.160 million (0.000046%). Buy 75 and its 0.003472%

Spending over $5 to win $1 doesn’t make sense. Money lines in sports gambling commonly have those odds, bet $110 to win $100 but in that case you’re only spending $110 if you lose, win and you get $100.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I don’t understand your math.
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gdwindowpane said:
Terrible return for who? WOH gets $300,000 (slightly less depending on how many pirchase 3 tickets at a discount). Ticket purchasers get a 1 in 4,000 (0.025%) chance for each $75 ticket sold. Buy 3 and its 0.0749%. Checked my states odds for a $50,000 scratchoff and they are typically 1 in 2.160 million (0.000046%). Buy 75 and its 0.003472%

Spending over $5 to win $1 doesn’t make sense. Money lines in sports gambling commonly have those odds, bet $110 to win $100 but in that case you’re only spending $110 if you lose, win and you get $100.
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Mathematical expectation. If 4000 tickets are sold on a $60k airplane (say) then each ticket is worth $15. Selling them for 5x that amount is a huge bad bet for the purchaser. Much worse than scratch-offs. Again, supporting WOH may be a good thing; I am just commenting on the bet.
 
gdwindowpane said:
Checked my states odds for a $50,000 scratchoff and they are typically 1 in 2.160 million (0.000046%).
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From North Carolina, I grabbed a $3 game that pays $50,000. The chances of winning $50,000 is about 1 in 728,546 because there are 6 top prizes. But even then, if you play $200 worth (ignoring the partial ticket), you only get the odds for $50,000 up to about 1 in 10,928. Plus, after taxes, you're only getting a 30,000 airplane.

WOH are much better odds from that standpoint.

Now the expected return for the scratch off game is a different problem - expected return on $200 of scratchoff tickets is around $99, but that is including a lot of prizes that don't get you an airplane and about 70% won't even get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Bottom line, don't play these things to win.
 
Bad investment good investment aside, let’s not forget its a charity!! I’ve gone to charity events and bought raffle tickets or bid on an auction for stuff merely just as a fun way to give some money away. i doubt very highly that there are 3999 ppl out there super ****ed off that they didn’t win. They didn’t expect to. Just a fun way to give some moolah away. If WoH is not your bag or you have a problem with them that’s a different story.
 
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nrpetersen said:
Lotteries are bait for those that don't understand the laws of probability.
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Not really. Most people understand that the chances of winning are very slim. But the possibility of turning a $2 ticket into millions of dollars is an attractive risk. It’s such a small amount to spend even if the probability of winning is minuscule. The $4 I spend each week on my two tickets is far less than smokers and coffee drinkers spend on their zero chance of an ROI expenditures.
 
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