Windy landings

[Toby]

Yesterday was impossible in the northeast! The wind was whipping around from 210 to 340, gusts in the mid to upper 20s. It was constantly windy at 1000 and above and sometimes quiet on the ground, maybe 3 kts at times, sign of windshear.

My first landing had a 30-degree crosswind, and the second had an 80-degree crosswind from the right with gusts of 26! I could not keep directional control on the ground. Kept veering to the right. I don't know if it's that I don't have enough strength, or I just didn't react quickly enough, but I could not keep that left rudder in without help. It felt like we were in a paper plane.

I wish I had pictures of the clouds. They were all different shades of white and gray, they were moving fast, and there was rain falling on the north shore. Some of the clouds had bottoms that dropped down vertically, almost as though someone had bounced a ball through the cloud and it ripped open the bottom of the cloud as it fell through.

Tough flying day.

 

[bbchien]

Under conditions such as that, if the aircraft is re-useable w/o the mechanic, you did fine... You haven't landed in a crosswind until you've (1) gone around, and then (2) been silly enough to bring up the power to the upwind engine to make it stick. I did this some years ago at Lincoln, ME, where there are no options for failure. The old guy running the place looked up and me and said, "you landed in that?!" which was NOT a compliment.

 

[EdFred]

Under conditions such as that, if the aircraft is re-useable w/o the mechanic, you did fine... You haven't landed in a crosswind until you've (1) gone around, and then (2) been silly enough to bring up the power to the upwind engine to make it stick. I did this some years ago at Lincoln, ME, where there are no options for failure. The old guy running the place looked up and me and said, "you landed in that?!" which was NOT a compliment.

Countering a crosswind with assymetrical thrust? Ineteresting approach - so to speak. Hard to do that in a single though! I don't mind crosswinds if they are hard - as long as they are steady. First flight in my plane I had to put it down in a hard direct crosswind. If I didn't I land it there I would have been overtaken by the incoming t-storm. Carried WAY too much speed on final, and touched down, and touched down, and touched down, and touched down. Full power and around I go. It wasn't gusty, but I had to slip-crab it in. What's a slip-crab? Well, it's when you've already got the opposite rudder all the way to the stops, and still have to crab it about 5º. As I got closer to the runway I was able to let the crab come out, but was still pretty much at the stops. Glad it wasn't gusty.

 

[Ken Ibold]

The old guy running the place looked up and me and said, "you landed in that?!" which was NOT a compliment.

Don't you hate it when people do that? Not because they're being busy bodies but because they're right! I once had an FBO operator say: "You circled to land? Come back when it's light out and you'll never do that again."

I did, and I didn't.

 

[AdamZ]

I have a good friend who once flew up to some field in Maine which is apparently known for cross winds. He said the airport bums would sit there on lawn chairs and raise up placards with numbers rating the landing. Kind of like they did on the old gong show or at ice skating competitions.

 

[azure]

Countering a crosswind with assymetrical thrust? Ineteresting approach - so to speak. Hard to do that in a single though! I don't mind crosswinds if they are hard - as long as they are steady. First flight in my plane I had to put it down in a hard direct crosswind. If I didn't I land it there I would have been overtaken by the incoming t-storm. Carried WAY too much speed on final, and touched down, and touched down, and touched down, and touched down. Full power and around I go. It wasn't gusty, but I had to slip-crab it in. What's a slip-crab? Well, it's when you've already got the opposite rudder all the way to the stops, and still have to crab it about 5º. As I got closer to the runway I was able to let the crab come out, but was still pretty much at the stops. Glad it wasn't gusty.

I agree, hard is fine as long as it's steady. So far the most fun I've had with crosswinds has been at Mackinac Island (MCD) in a 172. I went there two years in a row with very different experiences. The first time it was 16G23 by the AWOS at 40-70 degrees from the right. I thought I would have trouble, and promised my pax that I would try this ONLY ONCE, but as it turned out I did a near-greaser on the first try. It was easy because the wind, though variable in direction, wasn't too gusty.

The next year the AWOS advertised 8G14, variable from 180 to 360, but generally westerly so 26 was in use. This time I could not maintain directional control on final the first time and had to go around. The second time I managed to get down but it was NOT pretty. I touched down well left of center and had trouble taxiing on the ground. When we got out to tie the airplane down we realised the AWOS was lying through its teeth: it was more like 8G25 and the wind was changing direction so rapidly it was like being slapped on both sides of the face at once. The only thing we could guess is that the sensors could not sample the wind at short enough intervals to accurately report what it was doing.

Liz

 

[John J]

Had an exerience 10 years ago. I was coming home to the Boston area from a trip from Long Island. The weather was quite decent winds 330 at 10-20 and would deminish by the the time I got home. Well we all know forecasts can and do "go out the window." As I flew northeast I saw the scattered clouds change texture and the bases became dark and ragged. I tuned in various ATIS's ASOS and AWOS`plus tower frequenices. It was quite interesting for the chatter on the radio went from benign to reports of lots of bumps and wind. The trip only took barly an hour. 25 miles out from home I called the local controller to get winds etc. She reported winds from 300 to 360 at 20 gusts to 32 and a peak wind at 36. The ride in to Runway 35 was not bad until the last 400 feet. Lots of airspeed spikes and cross wind corrections that change in a second. Over the runway the wind just smoothed out as if were calm. Amazing for the minute I turned off the runway it roared up again and I had to taxi at a craw to get to the tiedown.

As one of the locals said, "The weather can never be counted on to do what you want it to."

John J

 

[Earthroamer]

Welcome to Oklahoma weather! Your welcome! LOL

Brent

 

[Diana]

He said the airport bums would sit there on lawn chairs and raise up placards with numbers rating the landing. Kind of like they did on the old gong show or at ice skating competitions.

Guess what? That's what we're doing at Gaston's this year!

 

[wsuffa]

Guess what? That's what we're doing at Gaston's this year!

If I come, I'm landing at Baxter County

 

[Toby]

When we got out to tie the airplane down we realised the AWOS was lying through its teeth: it was more like 8G25 and the wind was changing direction so rapidly it was like being slapped on both sides of the face at once. The only thing we could guess is that the sensors could not sample the wind at short enough intervals to accurately report what it was doing.

Yes, I've often noticed AWOS/ATIS lies. The sensors also report only what's right above them. Yesterday they also didn't seem to see all the clouds speeding through the vicinity. They were saying broken at 8,000, but that was definitely not the case.

 

[Toby]

Guess what? That's what we're doing at Gaston's this year!

Yes, and we'll be on our handhelds, broadcasting the scores for all in the vicinity, right, Diana?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Guess what? That's what we're doing at Gaston's this year!

You'd better have your cards go up to 11, then.

 

[Diana]

You'd better have your cards go up to 11, then.

Does that mean you're coming?

 

[Diana]

Yes, and we'll be on our handhelds, broadcasting the scores for all in the vicinity, right, Diana?

Toby, just in case some of those landings might be mine, we might want to re-think that one.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Does that mean you're coming?

I'm building my plans on a house of cards, but at least I'm building them!

(Boy, is that a fractured metaphor. I apologize to the English language.)

 

[gkainz]

I'm building my plans on a house of cards, but at least I'm building them!

(Boy, is that a fractured metaphor. I apologize to the English language.)

Just don't get desCarte before deHorse and you'll be fine...

 

[Rudy]

Guess what? That's what we're doing at Gaston's this year!

$50 to anyone who gives me a 10, I will be in a C-182, N71640. HAHA

 

[Diana]

$50 to anyone who gives me a 10, I will be in a C-182, N71640. HAHA

LOL!

Oh, Rudy, that's priceless!

Now Toby, if you and Tom and I each give Rudy a "10" we will almost have enough to cover the cottage for one night.

 

[Toby]

Now Toby, if you and Tom and I each give Rudy a "10" we will almost have enough to cover the cottage for one night.

The judges will not be bribed...........except by offers of rides.

 

[Diana]

The judges will not be bribed...........except by offers of rides.

Rudy, you can give me the money when you take me for a ride.

 

[spiderweb]

Toby, it was the same here.

Yeah, I considered not going, but I thought I really could use the practice. I got her down on the landings, but they weren't greasers. For me, the challenge was flying an ILS with an indicated 100 knots, but a groundspeed of 135 knots, with wild bumps that made sticking the needles very difficult. The thing is, though, that if you're in bumpy clouds, that's what those needles do!

The only "advice" I can give is:1) In gusty crosswinds, don't flare the nose too high, and 2) don't try for a greaser--try for stability.

Yesterday was impossible in the northeast! The wind was whipping around from 210 to 340, gusts in the mid to upper 20s. It was constantly windy at 1000 and above and sometimes quiet on the ground, maybe 3 kts at times, sign of windshear.

My first landing had a 30-degree crosswind, and the second had an 80-degree crosswind from the right with gusts of 26! I could not keep directional control on the ground. Kept veering to the right. I don't know if it's that I don't have enough strength, or I just didn't react quickly enough, but I could not keep that left rudder in without help. It felt like we were in a paper plane.

I wish I had pictures of the clouds. They were all different shades of white and gray, they were moving fast, and there was rain falling on the north shore. Some of the clouds had bottoms that dropped down vertically, almost as though someone had bounced a ball through the cloud and it ripped open the bottom of the cloud as it fell through.

Tough flying day.

 

[Ken Ibold]

$50 to anyone who gives me a 10, I will be in a C-182, N71640. HAHA

Does that mean you'll give me $500 for a 100?

 

[Rudy]

Rudy, you can give me the money when you take me for a ride.

Deal! haha, i still need to catch you on that. Maybe sometime in the next week. I am actually free tommorow and i think it is suppose to be somewhat nice. Whatever works for you!!

 

[Rudy]

Does that mean you'll give me $500 for a 100?

I don't know, let me talk it over with my lawyer!!! haha

 

[Diana]

Does that mean you'll give me $500 for a 100?

Gee, a while ago you were happy with an 11.

 

[gismo]

You'd better have your cards go up to 11, then.

This is not a Richter Scale where the higher numbers mean the ground shakes more Ken!

 

[wsuffa]

I don't know, let me talk it over with my lawyer!!! haha

Just pay up now. It'll cost you that much just to talk to the lawyer.

 

[Rudy]

Just pay up now. It'll cost you that much just to talk to the lawyer.

haha thats no joke!!

 

[gismo]

Re: Windy landings, where to aim

WRT to crosswind landings how many of you deliberately land off the centerline in a crosswind? Of those that have, do you go for the upwind side or the downwind side? No doubt this is a bigger issue in a taildragger than a tricycle.

I've been told that the downwind side is preferred since the plane will want to weathervane into the wind, but I have experienced times when the wind seemed to be blowing me off the downwind side and full aileron deflection into the wind wouldn't prevent the upwind wing from rising as I attemted to turn back towards the center.

 

[Ken Ibold]

This is not a Richter Scale where the higher numbers mean the ground shakes more Ken!

Oh, you've SEEN me land, then. Or felt it, maybe?


"Gee Ken, was that a landing or were we shot down?"

 

[gibbons]

Re: Windy landings, where to aim

WRT to crosswind landings how many of you deliberately land off the centerline in a crosswind? Of those that have, do you go for the upwind side or the downwind side? No doubt this is a bigger issue in a taildragger than a tricycle.

I've been told that the downwind side is preferred since the plane will want to weathervane into the wind, but I have experienced times when the wind seemed to be blowing me off the downwind side and full aileron deflection into the wind wouldn't prevent the upwind wing from rising as I attemted to turn back towards the center.

I'll generally cheat to the upwind side a bit (as if I can actually control where the airplane hits the runway ). I always three point and the second or two right before touchdown is when I'm most likely to be effected by the wind if I'm not on my toes, so I cheat to the high side.

 

[poadeleted3]

Re: Windy landings, where to aim

WRT to crosswind landings how many of you deliberately land off the centerline in a crosswind? Of those that have, do you go for the upwind side or the downwind side? No doubt this is a bigger issue in a taildragger than a tricycle.

I've been told that the downwind side is preferred since the plane will want to weathervane into the wind, but I have experienced times when the wind seemed to be blowing me off the downwind side and full aileron deflection into the wind wouldn't prevent the upwind wing from rising as I attemted to turn back towards the center.

I always aim for the centerline. Partly a result of training at an airport with a 24' wide runway, where missing too much meant hitting a mountain, I supposed. I'm a little obsessive about the centerline, and always unhappy when I miss it no matter the reason.

 

[John J]

Re: Windy landings, where to aim

WRT to crosswind landings how many of you deliberately land off the centerline in a crosswind? Of those that have, do you go for the upwind side or the downwind side? No doubt this is a bigger issue in a taildragger than a tricycle.

I've been told that the downwind side is preferred since the plane will want to weathervane into the wind, but I have experienced times when the wind seemed to be blowing me off the downwind side and full aileron deflection into the wind wouldn't prevent the upwind wing from rising as I attemted to turn back towards the center.

If the runway is wide enough I land on the downwind side on a heading that is close to the relative wind direction. If in a tail wheel plane(tail dragger) do a wheelie. Nose gear land the same but with the nose just off the ground. Once the mains are on then get the nose down and let the plane work to the up wind side. I do not use brakes until very slow. Lots of aileron is needed along with rudder to make it work No brakes except as a last resort and get ready to take a ride that you will not forget.

John J

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, I was planning on coming to Gastons, but will have to reconsider!! How far was that shuttle from Mountain Home? I make great landings when no one is around to notice. Figures, Huh?

Dave

 

[fgcason]

Re: Windy landings, where to aim

I always aim for the centerline. Partly a result of training at an airport with a 24' wide runway, where missing too much meant hitting a mountain, I supposed. I'm a little obsessive about the centerline, and always unhappy when I miss it no matter the reason.

Like me, you learned on runways where the paint stripe, when it wasn't grass (at which time you just centered yourself between the hard objects), was important.
Since you already have the skill to put it on a tire wide stripe, just redefine your definition of centerline as needed. Who cares where they went crazy with a paintbrush or why they made the runway crooked.

 

[Henning]

Under conditions such as that, if the aircraft is re-useable w/o the mechanic, you did fine... You haven't landed in a crosswind until you've (1) gone around, and then (2) been silly enough to bring up the power to the upwind engine to make it stick. I did this some years ago at Lincoln, ME, where there are no options for failure. The old guy running the place looked up and me and said, "you landed in that?!" which was NOT a compliment.

My favorite one was when I went with a guy in his 182 to pick up a Stinson he had just bought to bring it back for him since he didn't have much time in tailwheel planes. When we left, things were calm, nice day . When we got back the wind was blowing 45-50 straight across the only runway. He called me on CTAF and asked me where I wanted to divert to. I told him I was landing right here and he informed me the x-wind was too strong. I told "I know, follow me in if you want" and flew the pattern landing across the runway lined up on the taxiway and the big hanger. The airport manager/flight instructor/A&P-IA (and occassional employer of mine) watched this, opened the hangar door, and I just taxied in. The other guy just said "I would have never have though of that."

 

[gismo]

What are your thoughts on this technique?
Crosswind Takeoff
1. Start on downwind edge
2. Point the plane towards a point ~100 yards ahead on the opposite side of
the runway
3. On takeoff roll start a curve away from the wind
4. Decrease the curve rate as speed is gained
5. By the time you get to the "100 yard" mark be on runway heading
6. Keep the curve going at a much slower rate
7. At rotation the plane should be just a little off runway heading toward
the downwind side

Advantages: A. Centrifugal force is in your favor (trying to tip the plane
over into the wind). B. Helps prevent drift when the mains are still on
the ground and the wing begins to pick up its load.
Caution: Do not do this with less than half full tanks due to the
possibility of unporting the fuel outlet.

Could work. I've used such a technique a few times and it seemed OK. OTOH, unless the runway is fairly wide, you won't have much of an angle and you'd better pay close attention to your position on the runway as you start the takeoff. It wouldn't take much of a distraction to find you running right off the far side.

Crosswind Landing
1. Start ~200 feet parallel to the runway on the downwind side
2. Near the airport boundary, cut towards the runway at ~15 degrees
(depending on runway width and crosswind speed)
3. Flare just before crossing the downwind edge of the runway
4. Start the curve away from the wind (increase the curve rate as plane
speed is decreased)
5. Continue curve past runway heading ~10 degrees

Advantages: Same as those for takeoff.

The biggest problem I see with this is that you might run out of rudder during the turn away from the wind and find yourself unable to avoid running off the upwind side.

Of course in a taildragger with limited or no forward visibility either of these techniques come with problems for locating yourself relative to the runway during the time your view is blocked. Normally when I can't see out the front, I use my peripheral vision on both sides to sense something of the runway edges and the parallelism of my track to them. When deliberately angling away from the centerline this may prove rather difficult.

 

[The Old Man]

You'd better have your cards go up to 11, then.

Or in my case -1.

 

[Ken Ibold]

What are your thoughts on this technique?

Runway loss of control accounts for about 35-40 percent of all general aviation accidents. That means the runway environment tends to be THE most difficult thing for pilots to handle. I think this introduces a serious complication at a time that pilots historically have shown they already have a hard time handling.

Yes, it could work. But I think the marginal increase in go/no-go capability is overwhelmed by the potential for trouble. If you NEED this to land/takeoff, I submit you'd be better off a) staying on the ground or b) finding a runway more closely aligned into the wind.