Wind limitations within clubs.

[saracelica]

I've been reading some that clubs within the US and an FBO up the street from where I live has limitations for renting. They only have one strip of payment (09/27) and if the crosswind is over 18kts or so you can't rent. So if I rent an airplane from them and it was only 15kts and I crash (and live) can I sue them for renting? (Sure I can sue anyone for anything) but why don't they let it PIC decision?

Slow day at work and my mind is wandering.

 

[Bob Noel]

Could it possibly be a means to reduce the cost of insurance?

 

[Apache123]

Could it possibly be a means to reduce the cost of insurance?

I know that insurance is what set a lot of the limitations when I was renting. Most of my personal limitations never reached that point though.

As far as suing at 15kts xwind, if you crashed it would most likely be a pilot error ruling.

 

[Sac Arrow]

The flight school I went to had limitations on student flights, but none of the FBO's I've delt with had any kind of weather limitations on their rentals.

 

[nosehair]

why don't they let it PIC decision?

It's a "club".

Clubs, by their very nature, set up a list of rules that they, the club, the community, agree on as serving the best interests of The Club.

Becoming a member of A Club means you allow those rules to guide and affect your PIC decisions.

Well, you said your mind was wandering,..thought I'd get you back on focus. :wink2:

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

The closest FBOs to me all have weather limits on rentals. Some of the people who rent planes from them seem to be unaware of that fact. They don't leave it up to PIC's discretion because they have a financial stake in the outcome of the flight.

I'm assuming the rule the OP mentioned is a crosswind component over 18kts. That would test the skills of many of the renter pilots I know. If one of them (not including student pilots) crashed in that weather due to their lack of skills, i wouldn't hold an FBO responsible for renting the plane to the pilot. And if it were up to me, I'd suspend the certificate of any pilot suing an FBO in that situation.

 

[poadeleted20]

As they said, it's all about the money. Those limitations help, in various ways, keep the total cost to the membership the most reasonable.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Most trainers have a demonstrated crosswind component of around 17kts, that could be a part of it. Their insurance many not cover an airplane that is wrecked if beyond those tested winds.

 

[TMetzinger]

Most trainers have a demonstrated crosswind component of around 17kts, that could be a part of it. Their insurance many not cover an airplane that is wrecked if beyond those tested winds.

I'm sure you know that the demonstrated crosswind component is not a limitation. It's just the most crosswind the test pilot found during that section of the flight test program.

The various outfits I know of around here have dispatch limits for winds for student solo operations, but none for "normal" rental operations. The limit isn't set by the insurance company, and really doesn't have anything to do with the insurance, except indirectly - setting that limit reduces the likelihood of an incident and an insurance claim. I have never heard of insurance denying a claim for wind conditions - even in a case where the student was dispatched in winds below limits (which then changed) and damaged the plane while returning in winds that were just above his limits.

I know that wind limits vary (sometimes dramatically) based on location. What's a horrible crosswind in Virginia is a gentle breeze in Kansas or Alaska.

 

[Mafoo]

My FBO also limits landings on runways longer then 3,000 feet. 15kt crosswind is the limit for them.

 

[Sac Arrow]

My FBO also limits landings on runways longer then 3,000 feet. 15kt crosswind is the limit for them.

What's the shortest they will let you land on?

 

[Ted]

If you crash in a 15 kt x-wind and sue the club, then you will surely not have any friends in the aviation community afterwards.

Nobody worth their private should crash a 172 in a 15 kt x-wind.

 

[darrell]

My club has rather strict wind limitations:

• Student Pilots (solo)
  • Max total wind: 12 knots
  • Max crosswind: 6 knots
  • Max gust factor: 0 knots
• Pilots <200 hours total time
  • Max total wind: 20 knots
  • Max crosswind: 9 knots
  • Max gust factor: 5 knots
• Pilots 200+ hours total time
  • Max total wind: 30 knots
  • Max crosswind: 12 knots
  • Max gust factor: 10 knots

 

[TMetzinger]

My club has rather strict wind limitations:

• Student Pilots (solo)
  • Max total wind: 12 knots
  • Max crosswind: 6 knots
  • Max gust factor: 0 knots
• Pilots <200 hours total time
  • Max total wind: 20 knots
  • Max crosswind: 9 knots
  • Max gust factor: 5 knots
• Pilots 200+ hours total time
  • Max total wind: 30 knots
  • Max crosswind: 12 knots
  • Max gust factor: 10 knots

Wow! Where is this club?

 

[GCA319]

My club has rather strict wind limitations:

• Student Pilots (solo)
  • Max total wind: 12 knots
  • Max crosswind: 6 knots
  • Max gust factor: 0 knots
• Pilots <200 hours total time
  • Max total wind: 20 knots
  • Max crosswind: 9 knots
  • Max gust factor: 5 knots
• Pilots 200+ hours total time
  • Max total wind: 30 knots
  • Max crosswind: 12 knots
  • Max gust factor: 10 knots

I can think of many days in my neck of the woods that would not be flyable with these limitations...Forget flying in the spring too

 

[MDeitch1976]

If you crash in a 15 kt x-wind and sue the club, then you will surely not have any friends in the aviation community afterwards.

Nobody worth their private should crash a 172 in a 15 kt x-wind.

I have to agree here. How can you hold the club responsible for pilot error? The only thing I could see suing the club for would be an accident that involved fudged maintenance records regarding something that you could not examine on a typical pre-flight.

 

[jspilot]

I'll just add that where I rent from is the same flight school I trained out of. They only limit as far as I know to minimum runway length of 3,000 feet. Although they may make an exception for Block Island because it is very popular in this neck of the woods and the runway is like 2800 or something.

Honestly, where I rent the rule is that if you're past your student solo you must be able to land in any weather condition. Obviously they don't let people take off in bad conditions but to limit crosswind max is kind of pointless. What if you take off, fly and return to the airport with a freak wind condition? Are you not allowed to land because of the wind, would you be kicked out of the club???

 

[jbarrass]

My club has rather strict wind limitations:

• Student Pilots (solo)
  • Max total wind: 12 knots
  • Max crosswind: 6 knots
  • Max gust factor: 0 knots
• Pilots <200 hours total time
  • Max total wind: 20 knots
  • Max crosswind: 9 knots
  • Max gust factor: 5 knots
• Pilots 200+ hours total time
  • Max total wind: 30 knots
  • Max crosswind: 12 knots
  • Max gust factor: 10 knots

It scares me that students from this place will be private pilots with very limited crosswind experience (6kts) and no gust experience without a CFI on-board.

 

[denverpilot]

Everyone answered why the clubs do it, but not the original question, which was would the CLUB be in trouble for renting at 15 knots with an 18 knot limit...

And of course, the answer is no. The ultimate responsibility still falls on the PIC for the safe outcome of the flight.

 

[S Joslin]

It scares me that students from this place will be private pilots with very limited crosswind experience (6kts) and no gust experience without a CFI on-board.

That's exactly what I was thinking!!

 

[jesse]

My club has rather strict wind limitations:

• Student Pilots (solo)
  • Max total wind: 12 knots
  • Max crosswind: 6 knots
  • Max gust factor: 0 knots
• Pilots <200 hours total time
  • Max total wind: 20 knots
  • Max crosswind: 9 knots
  • Max gust factor: 5 knots
• Pilots 200+ hours total time
  • Max total wind: 30 knots
  • Max crosswind: 12 knots
  • Max gust factor: 10 knots

Well it's a good thing that club isn't in Nebraska. They'd never have to worry about pilots getting to the 200 hour category....

 

[steingar]

I honestly don't understand these policies. So you take off, and while you're up the winds kick up. What are you supposed to do, not land?

 

[DavidWhite]

If you crash in a 15 kt x-wind and sue the club, then you will surely not have any friends in the aviation community afterwards.

Nobody worth their private should crash a 172 in a 15 kt x-wind.

I can land the 'hawk in a crosswind as long as I have rudder.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

I honestly don't understand these policies. So you take off, and while you're up the winds kick up. What are you supposed to do, not land?

The policy is there to reduce perceived risk, not eliminate it.
Incidentally, the local policy reads "don't fly with wind that exceeds, or is forecast exceed, ..." Obviously that won't always prevent the situation you describe, but it maybe reduces the frequency of people flying in whatever conditions someone arbitrarily labelled as too risky.

 

[Mafoo]

What's the shortest they will let you land on?

lol, yea, written poorly. 3000 feet is the shortest runway you can land on. It can be as long as you like, above 3000

 

[darrell]

Wow! Where is this club?

It's the Navy Flying Club on NAS Jacksonville.

The wind doesn't seem to keep many people from flying, so I guess, historically-speaking, the winds here are not so bad (I'm not originally from Florida, so I don't really know the weather patterns yet).

My assumption is that it's part insurance-based and part government-redtape-CYA-based, since the club is paid for out of the base's MWR budget.

 

[Ghery]

No maximum crosswind requirements in our club. We're limited to paved runways, however.

 

[GauzeGuy]

1. Wind:
• Student Solo: Maximum 10 knots with 5 knot crosswind component. 15 knots with 8 knot crosswind component is allowed with crosswind training entered in logbook and instructor approval immediately prior to flight.
• Private Pilot: Maximum 20 knots with 10 knot crosswind component with less than 100 hours logged. Maximum 25 knots with 10 knot crosswind component with more than 100 hours logged.
• Commercial: Maximum 25 knots with 12 knot crosswind component in C-152 and 15 knot crosswind component in C-172 with less than 1500 hours total time. Maximum 30 knots with 12 knot crosswind component in C-152 and 15 knot crosswind component in C-172 with over 1500 hours total time and 150 hours in the past calendar year.

 

[BrianR]

Here's our club policy:

Club aircraft shall not be removed from hangar or tie down when the wind velocity exceeds 25 knots, including gusts, or when the crosswind component exceeds the rated crosswind component as specified in the aircraft's operating handbook, except for maintenance reasons or emergencies vital to the safety of the aircraft. There shall be no wind limitations on FAA Certified Flight Instructors or commercial rated pilots.

For primary solo students, the limitations are 15 kt surface wind, including gusts, and 8 kt or less crosswind component.

 

[douglas393]

I've been reading some that clubs within the US and an FBO up the street from where I live has limitations for renting. They only have one strip of payment (09/27) and if the crosswind is over 18kts or so you can't rent. So if I rent an airplane from them and it was only 15kts and I crash (and live) can I sue them for renting? (Sure I can sue anyone for anything) but why don't they let it PIC decision?

Slow day at work and my mind is wandering.

First the apology. Now the rant. Here we a a perfectly good question which is of interest to most of us because it concerns multiple issues including club responsibilities to both the individual club members, and the club in general, and more importantly to perspective club members because it involves a question to ask that they may have not thought of, and people like me because it gives me insight into what others think about setting personal limits. Then we mess up this perfect good(even great question) by asking if I do something stupid, that was done because I did something I was not able to do, and should have known I was not able to do it, but someone let me do it, and as a result of me choosing to do this stupid thing I hurt myself, and possibly others can I sue them because they let me do this activity I knew I should not do. Well yeah you can sue anyone for anything in this crazy mixed up world, but more importantly where is your responsibilty to yourself and your passengers in making correct go and no go decisions. You are PIC , YOU CHOOSE when to fly and not to. If you utilize a club and their limitations are more restrictive than your personal limits then you are stuck with their limits, if their limits are less restrictive, then be a good pilot and stick to your personal limits. If you crash the plane, it is your fault not theirs and asking whether you can sue is in my opinion absurd. Be an adult and take some personal responsibility for your actions!(I hope I just misread this and your question was tongue in cheek and if so nevermind).

Okay I'm done.

Well maybe not. Why stop at the club, why not sue the controller in the tower for letting you take off, your instructor for not teaching you about personal limits, the airport authority for letting you use the runway, the DPE and FAA for giving you your ticket, the aircraft manufacturer for making a faulty product, and me for ranting in an uncontrolled fashion...

Okay now I'm done really.

Have a good day.

Doug

 

[bflynn]

I've been reading some that clubs within the US and an FBO up the street from where I live has limitations for renting. They only have one strip of payment (09/27) and if the crosswind is over 18kts or so you can't rent. So if I rent an airplane from them and it was only 15kts and I crash (and live) can I sue them for renting? (Sure I can sue anyone for anything) but why don't they let it PIC decision?

Slow day at work and my mind is wandering.

Can you sue then for your ineptness? Sure, but just hope that I'm not on the jury...

 

[zaitcev]

I honestly don't understand these policies. So you take off, and while you're up the winds kick up. What are you supposed to do, not land?

It happened to me a couple of times. In both cases I landed at an alternative airport. BTW, one of those times a CFI was onboard and even he could not handle it. The airplane was flying sideways.

P.S. We have a couple of local fields notorious for crosswinds. Angel Fire is one, and some moron crashed a Lance on takeoff there in January. It was gusting 40! He drifted into the snowbank. I saw private pictures of the remains, and the left window was busted from the inside where his stupid head hit it.

 

[CBeaulieu]

Not such WX related limitations at the FBO I work at part time/rent from. We do have two limitations for reting specific aircraft, though.

To rent the Sierra you need to have at least 150 total hours and get a checkout from the Chief Flight Instructor.

To rent the Baron (nobody ever does, it's nearly $700.00/hr) you need to have an MEI with you at all times, so no solo rentals. Thankfully I am lucky enough to fly dead-legs in that puppy for free or I wouldn't be able to fly it at all.

 

[Matthew]

I honestly don't understand these policies. So you take off, and while you're up the winds kick up. What are you supposed to do, not land?

One of the FBO's where I used to rent had wind limitations. The policy was worded in such a way that takeoff was not allowed if surface winds were above some limit (possibly x-winds, too, but I can't remember). It did not put a limit on the winds when you landed.

--

And the whole lawsuit thing - really?

 

[saracelica]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was just curious about other clubs policy. It seemed weird that clubs would/do have policy on it and I'm glad ours does not. Continue to post your own clubs policy if you'd like to share.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Some of you guys would never be able to fly in the Midwest. 15G25 is a good day.

Also in that area (I know KRAP does it) when you're cleared to takeoff they start with "winds 160 at 12 gust 23, clear for takeoff 14" or the like. I'm guessing it pounds it into the heads of those who aren't familiar with those kinds of situations. I had the winds change on me there over the course of just a couple hours from really simple (like 10kts) to 45 thankfully I did have a high time pilot with me as I was about a 100hr private. I think taxiing was harder than landing (straight down the runway)

 

[zaitcev]

Also in that area (I know KRAP does it) when you're cleared to takeoff they start with "winds 160 at 12 gust 23, clear for takeoff 14" or the like. I'm guessing it pounds it into the heads of those who aren't familiar with those kinds of situations.

I thought every tower did that. ABQ does it even though you tell them "with information Bravo". Winds change, ATIS may be out of date or incorrect. And they have a bunch of windsocks all over the airport, too.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I thought every tower did that. ABQ does it even though you tell them "with information Bravo". Winds change, ATIS may be out of date or incorrect. And they have a bunch of windsocks all over the airport, too.

KRAP is the only place I remember hearing it consistently. I guess I didn't pay much attention when I was in KABQ. No place in the Phoenix area does it though I read something that it used to be in the controllers handbook but they don't do it anymore for one reason or another (time?)

 

[Palmpilot]

If the FBOs and clubs here put in restrictions like the ones described in this thread, that would make me buy an airplane!

 

[Palmpilot]

lol, yea, written poorly. 3000 feet is the shortest runway you can land on. It can be as long as you like, above 3000

Wimps!

I'm always amazed when people think less than 3000 feet is a short runway, since I got my PPL at a 2500 foot one, which is more than three times the ground roll of a 172.