Win7

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Dave Taylor
I heard from a computer pal today that as Windows 7 comes on line, those with WinXP will find it being sunsetted (thanks to QBs for that term) which means they will no longer 'support' it, or provide security patches etc.

T or F?
or, like most things somewhere in between?
 
They'll likely be forced to provide security patches for longer than they want to. The government did this regarding Win98, and the corporate sector likely will likely demand continuing patches for XP.

Also, many low-resource mini-notebooks are still being sold with XP, so it's not exactly a dead OS. I wouldn't count on M$ backporting any new features to XP, nor do I think there's any real reason why they necessarily should. But I think the security patches will continue.

In fact, I downloaded security patches onto my Win2K machine (Stefan's data recovery machine, which I inherited when he passed away) just this week. So I wouldn't worry too much about them sunsetting XP for at least several years.

-Rich
 
XP has a huge installed base including most of the Gov't and Commercial sectors - Microsoft's prime customers. Everyone is hoping that Win7 will be a smooth upgrade, but the change path for major customers is many years long. So I'd expect XP patching (particularly for security issues) to continue for at least another five years.
 
I imagine that they will be retiring the OS. Heck look at the *nix world, the distro's sunset versions all the time. You can only support the old base for so long. BTW...from all I hear, from Windows geeks and *nix propeller heads, Win7 is supposed to be a really, really good OS.
 
XP has a huge installed base including most of the Gov't and Commercial sectors - Microsoft's prime customers. Everyone is hoping that Win7 will be a smooth upgrade, but the change path for major customers is many years long. So I'd expect XP patching (particularly for security issues) to continue for at least another five years.

And I'm told by MS that there will be no direct upgrade path to 7 from XP, which complicates matters considerably.

Although XP users will be entitled to a discount on 7, they will not be able to do an in-place upgrade. They'll either have to upgrade to Vista before upgrading to 7 (which no one is going to do); or else the "upgrade" will require backing up all data, doing a fresh install of 7, and then reinstalling all of the apps and reimporting the data. There's also no in-place upgrade path from 32-bit Vista to 64-bit 7, of course.

There will be a virtualized Windows "XP Mode" available for 7 Professional and Ultimate, which will require two separate downloads (both free). That should help avoid some of the compatibility issues for current XP users, but it will still require a complete reinstall of the OS, reinstallation of applications, and re-importation of data.

I do, however, know one young fellow who claims to have imported an entire, intact XP system into a 7 installation as a VHD using information he found here and here, and that it is running flawlessly. That would be interesting and could ease the transition in a safe way by removing the existing HD with the intact XP installation, and installing the new OS onto a fresh disk. The old hard drive with the intact XP installation could be swapped back into the machine if the VHD conversion process failed.

This is very interesting and is something I might try myself. I do wonder, however, how it would affect activation or licensing. Would XP running on a VHD recognize the Windows 7 VPC as a different machine and de-activate Windows and other software that requires activation? My friend says his installation did require reactivation, but that the reactivation was successful.

But VHMs and VPCs aside, there's no in-place upgrade path from XP to 7. There is one from Vista (assuming that the upgrade is to the same bus width version), but I suspect most Vista users are home users. Pretty much all business users I know of who bought computers since Vista's release took the XP downgrade option.

Another factor that may slow or speed the adoption of 7, depending upon how MS responds to it, is that some users actually like Vista and are in no hurry to upgrade. I know a lot of home users who love it, for whatever unfathomable reasons. Even I must admit that the 64-bit version isn't horrible. I have had 64-bit Vista Ultimate installed on one of my machines since literally the day it was released, and although I'm not crazy about it, it's usable enough.

But Microsoft, of course, wants to sell Windows 7. Most of the existing Vista user base are home users, some of whom actually like Vista. Others may not love it, but they also don't want to shell out the money for the upgrade (plus the time for someone to install it, if they're not tech-savvy). And then there are the XP users who simply don't want to spend days reinstalling all of their apps onto a virtual version of XP running on a VM on top of 7 -- just to do exactly what they're already able to do running XP.

If MS is smart, I think they'll do some work to ease the importation of existing XP systems into 7's VPC as VHDs, possibly even coming out with a tool to automate the process. There is absolutely no technical reason why this cannot be done. Even the activation process is a no-brainer: All that's needed is a patch to allow Windows Activation on the VHD to directly access the hardware to verify that it's the same physical machine, even though it's running on a VM.

For that matter, even if the existing XP system is imported onto a VM running on a new physical machine running Windows 7, MS should allow it to be reactivated onto the new machine, with a promise to wipe it from the old machine after a 90-day grace period (just in case it doesn't work properly on the VM).

There may be problems with third-party apps that are licensed for only one machine, but those would only come into play if they're installed onto 7 itself (not the VHD) in addition to the VHD. But if they run properly on 7, they can then be uninstalled from the VHD to comply with the single-machine license.

The final factor I wonder about with regard to 7's adoption has to do with the hardware requirements for Windows 7 to run properly. The minimum requirements specified by MS don't seem too scary, but those are minimums; and MS has historically (and notoriously) understated minimum requirements for new OS releases. Their official stated minimum RAM requirement for XP with full functionality was 128 MB, for example. Just try running XP on 128 MB of RAM.

The official minimum requirements for 64-bit WIndows 7 include 2 GB of RAM, plus 1 GB if you want to run XP on the VM. That's minimum. Many existing mobos have a maximum RAM capacity of 4 GB, which gets a little close to the minimums. I don't know how long 7 will run well on 4 GB of RAM. I do know that I have clients whose XP machines once ran well enough on 256MB, but now require at least a Gig of RAM to get out of their own way, even with only very ordinary business apps installed.

Finally, both corporate and home users do have a choice. In addition to Mac, Ubuntu is now a viable option. I've done scads of Ubuntu conversions for home users, as well as a few for SOHOs and a couple for medium-sized businesses. Is it perfect? No. But with a little education, it is possible to run a business primarily on Ubuntu, reserving a few Windows machines for those apps that need it.

Realistically, however, I don't think MS is losing sleep over Ubuntu -- yet -- but I do think they're watching. The latest version of Ubuntu (Karmic Koala, to be released next week) is very polished, very stable, very resistant to malware, and very free. If MS tries to force businesses to adopt 7 before they're ready to do so by withdrawing security patches, more businesses might start eying Ubuntu (or Mac, for that matter).

In short, although I was impressed with the beta of 7 (comparatively speaking), there are many, many obstacles to its widespread acceptance. MS will have to both ease the transition process and continue providing at least security updates for XP for quite some time to come if they want to avoid alienating their core market.

-Rich
 
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Windows XP's support life runs until 2016, IIRC. There's still time.
 
Also, many low-resource mini-notebooks are still being sold with XP, so it's not exactly a dead OS.

New Toshiba netbook on the way to my house today....with Win 7 Starter installed. You'll start to see the XP/Ubuntu choice being replaced with Win 7/Ubuntu. It will be interesting. Both the OS and IE8 have a smaller footprint.

On the Enterprise front, we're moving to Win 7 on new lease replacements starting Mar. 2010. Our client PCs, servers, and network infrastructure are on a 3 year lease replacement. We are about 50/50 Vista / XP now on approx. 2000 client machines. We never upgrade existing hardware with OS or Office. For us, the XP to Win 7 upgrade issue is non-existent.

Interestingly enough, we never had problems with Vista. Turn off UAC and it is a very well behaved OS in our experience.
 
New Lenovo laptop on order for home with Win 7 Home Premium installed. Should have the Vista -> Win 7 upgrade disc waiting for me when I get home from this trip tomorrow night. My quad core has been running Vista Home Premium for 2 1/2 years. Overall, Vista has been OK, but it still has some annoyances that I'm hoping Win 7 will correct. Less OS overhead would be nice, too. We'll see...
 
New Lenovo laptop on order for home with Win 7 Home Premium installed. Should have the Vista -> Win 7 upgrade disc waiting for me when I get home from this trip tomorrow night. My quad core has been running Vista Home Premium for 2 1/2 years. Overall, Vista has been OK, but it still has some annoyances that I'm hoping Win 7 will correct. Less OS overhead would be nice, too. We'll see...
Yeah, I'd do the same. Unfortunately, my Vista machine has 4GB RAM, but is only running the 32-bit version of Vista. Moving to the 64 bit version of Win 7, which is required to fully exploit all the RAM, requires a full install of the OS. Meanwhile, I'm planning to replace the HD on my XP laptop. Again, XP -> Win7 requires a full install rather than a nice upgrade. :(
 
It just kills me that MS went to such pains (see the article) to satisfy the PC manufacturers demands. Yes, they are the customer but only the intermediate customer! Why not go to the end user and start with their requests first? Both groups should be looking at the person who writes the final checks, not trying to make each other happy.
Instead of all these unnecessary upgrades (which really don't make a hill of beans difference to us but do liven up the income side of their balance sheet), they ought to find out what we want and focus on providing that.

maybe this is not strictly OS related but I would like to do away with the 8 varieties of optical discs - or at least make them invisible to the end user by sending out all computers with a universal reader/burner that does every disk. Discs will be labelled by size only.
And prohibit sending any free trials of Office, Norton etc. Either include it or don't. We should not be paying for you to advertise these things.
 
And prohibit sending any free trials of Office, Norton etc. Either include it or don't. We should not be paying for you to advertise these things.

At least leave the AOL software off. I don't want that virus on any machine of mine. Granted, my problem with that software from from a number of versions back, but still....
 
It just kills me that MS went to such pains (see the article) to satisfy the PC manufacturers demands. Yes, they are the customer but only the intermediate customer! Why not go to the end user and start with their requests first? Both groups should be looking at the person who writes the final checks, not trying to make each other happy.
Instead of all these unnecessary upgrades (which really don't make a hill of beans difference to us but do liven up the income side of their balance sheet), they ought to find out what we want and focus on providing that.

maybe this is not strictly OS related but I would like to do away with the 8 varieties of optical discs - or at least make them invisible to the end user by sending out all computers with a universal reader/burner that does every disk. Discs will be labelled by size only.
And prohibit sending any free trials of Office, Norton etc. Either include it or don't. We should not be paying for you to advertise these things.

The free trials annoy me enough that I dread setting up computers from certain manufacturers, especially HP and Compaq, who really load their systems up with crapware. Dell's not much better these days.

When I have a choice, I deal with an outfit in Syracuse, New York called Seneca Data. They're an Acer distributor, and they also put out their own line of PCs under the NexLink label. If I tell them all I want is the OS installed, that's what I get. They're also great about building custom configurations: I've given them some real oddball configurations for specialized machines, and they've never messed one up. Fast service and U.S.-based sales and support, too.

They won't sell to end users, however; they deal strictly with resellers.

-Rich
 
Although XP users will be entitled to a discount on 7, they will not be able to do an in-place upgrade. They'll either have to upgrade to Vista before upgrading to 7 (which no one is going to do); or else the "upgrade" will require backing up all data, doing a fresh install of 7, and then reinstalling all of the apps and reimporting the data.

Yeah, I'd do the same. Unfortunately, my Vista machine has 4GB RAM, but is only running the 32-bit version of Vista. Moving to the 64 bit version of Win 7, which is required to fully exploit all the RAM, requires a full install of the OS. Meanwhile, I'm planning to replace the HD on my XP laptop. Again, XP -> Win7 requires a full install rather than a nice upgrade. :(

Really?

So you guys are saying that an upgrade from something other than Vista requires you to completely nuke the machine and start over? :dunno:

Really?!?
 
Really?

So you guys are saying that an upgrade from something other than Vista requires you to completely nuke the machine and start over? :dunno:

Really?!?
Yes, that's what Microsoft is saying at this time. Given the number of corporate clients they have who never moved to Vista, that may change, of course. On the other hand, those clients probably are expected to move to Win 7 as part of the normal equipment replacement cycle, so may not be doing an upgrade (as opposed to a replacement) anyway.
 
My .02.

Machine cost has dropped to where upgrading an old PC is not really worth the effort. Historically they did not run the next gen OS well.

There is a significant benefit to having the old machine available during the data and application migration to the new one.

Why watch your machine run blue bars for half a day to discover that it will take a week to be productive again. That's how every in place OS upgrade wroked for me.
 
Machine cost has dropped to where upgrading an old PC is not really worth the effort. Historically they did not run the next gen OS well.

+ 1.

There is no justification to upgrade hardware anymore. There is also no justification in doing in-place upgrades of the OS or Office suite. None. Upgrade software when you upgrade hardware. 3 years is workable replacement point that works well when you lease.
 
+ 1.

There is no justification to upgrade hardware anymore. There is also no justification in doing in-place upgrades of the OS or Office suite. None. Upgrade software when you upgrade hardware. 3 years is workable replacement point that works well when you lease.

I dunno about that, at least touching upon hardware. I think it depends upon the situation, especially if you're dealing with clients who bought top-of-the line hardware previously.

I have some clients who bought high-end machines a few years ago that work just fine and have plenty of extra resources. Maybe all they need to run Win7 well is a processor or RAM upgrade, but probably not even that. I specified high-end, multiple-core chips and maxed out the RAM on these machines when they were first ordered with the express intent to make them last through at least one OS upgrade.

So if my clients do decide to go to Win7 (which I'm not pushing on my XP users just yet because most of them use proprietary apps that are still being tested on 7, but which I am considering for my few Vista users), I'll evaluate each machine individually to decide whether to suggest replacement or upgrade. In most cases where I ordered their existing machines, they'll be able to handle 7 just fine, with at most minor upgrades. For example, if going from 32-bit- to 64-bit, I'd add RAM, because I never specified more than 4 GB on a 32-bit machine. I'd probably replace the hard drives preemptively on any machine over a year or so old, as well.

I had the same situation on the machine I'm using now, in fact. Some of my newer software preferred a dual-core processor and a better video card, and I was still running a single-core processor and a video card with 128 MB RAM. (There's an old Italian story about the cobbler's children going barefoot...)

Because the machine worked pretty much flawlessly otherwise, I chose to upgrade the CPU and video card; and while I was at it, I did some other miscellaneous upgrades and preventative maintenance. I added a card reader, preemptively replaced an old hard drive I suspected was getting ready to fail (just because it didn't "feel" quite right when accessing data), cleaned and lubed the fans, and so forth.

My total cost was about $240.00, as opposed to whatever it would have cost me to replace the machine (probably $800 - $1,500, depending on how carried away I wanted to get with the parts). Also, remember that only the CPU upgrade and the video card upgrade (combined cost: $168.00) were done to address specific deficiencies. The card reader was done because I got one on sale really cheap at MicroCenter, and the hard drive replacement was based on a subjective hunch that one of the drives was funky.

I should add that this machine is now more than capable of running 32- or 64-bit Win7 (including the Aero interface); so even though that wasn't my particular reason for upgrading it, I probably would have done the same thing even if that were my objective. Why spend hundreds of dollars for new hardware unnecessarily in these economic times, especially if that cost is multiplied over multiple computers?

-Rich
 
+ 1.

There is no justification to upgrade hardware anymore. There is also no justification in doing in-place upgrades of the OS or Office suite. None. Upgrade software when you upgrade hardware. 3 years is workable replacement point that works well when you lease.


The problem, Greg, is that it is quite pricy to do that. Part of the reason that I didn't go the Vista route is support for certain hardware & the programs that drive them. I don't want to have to replace my film scanner, my paper archiving scanner, printer(s), etc, in addition to upgrading all the application software.

Buying a computer with the OS is the cheap part. It would cost me thousands of dollars to replace everything (and some stuff can't be replaced....) There's Office. There's Photoshop. There's reactivation of any software that's moved (assuming that the vendor allows it).....

I'm thinking about a new computer and setting up dual-boot between XP and 7, with a second hard drive just for data storage..... Then taking the old 3 GHz box and converting it to a second-level firewall.

That's the home system.

Corporate is just now starting to roll out Vista to users....
 
I dunno about that, at least touching upon hardware. I think it depends upon the situation, especially if you're dealing with clients who bought top-of-the line hardware previously.

That's why we lease. The equipment might be good after three years, or it might not be. It doesn't matter. No decision needs to be made about upgrades.
 
The problem, Greg, is that it is quite pricy to do that.

Actually, if you do the math...it makes more sense financially. You have to factor in your support costs over the three year period, hardware and software upgrades, etc. For us, it was cheaper to lease all hardware. Client PCs, Servers, Routers, Switches, etc. Laptops...especially those truly on the road, have a useful wear and tear of about 3 years. We have MS Select licensing so software costs are spread across.

One of our biggest issues was disposing of old hardware. Now, we ship it back to the leasing company.
 
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One of our biggest issues was disposing of old hardware. Now, we ship it back to the leasing company.

For a big outfit, I suppose that's true. For me, getting rid of old computers is a lot of fun.

The ones that the clients don't want for their kids, I refurbish and give away to nursery schools, senior citizens' centers, and so forth. The ones for the nursery schools usually get Edubuntu and every free game and educational app I can find; the ones for the old folks usually get Windows, OpenOffice, Firefox, and a virus scanner (usually the free version of Comodo Internet Security, which I'm liking more and more).

Of course, I'm only talking about 15 - 25 machines a year, so I can do that in my spare time. And besides, it's a mitzvah.

I also get machines that are replaced for reasons I just don't get, because they're reasonably current and perfectly usable. Usually these are machines that were owned by home users who decided that they "just didn't like them," usually because of damage that they themselves caused by loading them up with garbage.

I tell these people I can fix their machines and make them like new, but sometimes they have developed such an irrational hatred for their computers that they literally scream at me to take them away.

Fine. I take the machine, blow the dust out of it, wipe the hard drive, reinstall the OS, clean the exterior and wipe it with an Armor All wipe, and sell it on Craig's List. I use the money to help defray the cost of the parts I use to refurbish the ones I give away for free.

I guess being able to do stuff like that is an advantage of being a small-time operator. :smile:

-Rich
 
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Did the upgrade from Vista to Win 7 this weekend. Almost 3 year old machine with an Intel Q6700 (Core 2 Quad) processor. Painless upgrade. What I'm hoping for is faster operation due to less overhead on the part of the OS. We'll see. Also ordered a new laptop for my wife, and it comes pre-loaded with Win 7. Just have to buy a copy of Office 2007 (educator edition, she's a teacher) and it will be ready to go. Should arrive tomorrow, just after I leave for a week and a half in Taiwan. No problem, our son is a computer geek and he'll set it up for her. Just have to remember to dig out the wireless router password for him tonight.
 
Actually, if you do the math...it makes more sense financially. You have to factor in your support costs over the three year period, hardware and software upgrades, etc. For us, it was cheaper to lease all hardware. Client PCs, Servers, Routers, Switches, etc. Laptops...especially those truly on the road, have a useful wear and tear of about 3 years. We have MS Select licensing so software costs are spread across.

One of our biggest issues was disposing of old hardware. Now, we ship it back to the leasing company.

For business, I'd agree that's probably true.

For resonable computer saavy home use, it's not. I don't get depreciation (or leasing) deductions from my taxes, so it's 100% real cash from my pockets. ANd I don't pay for support.

Sorta like cars: businesses find it more cost effective to replace cars at a certain age/number of miles. Yet I'm driving a 12 year old SUV (and a 3 year old Honda) that is much tougher to look at replacing.
 
Yes, that's what Microsoft is saying at this time. Given the number of corporate clients they have who never moved to Vista, that may change, of course. On the other hand, those clients probably are expected to move to Win 7 as part of the normal equipment replacement cycle, so may not be doing an upgrade (as opposed to a replacement) anyway.

Hmmm...


:rofl:
 
Kent, somehow I knew that (or something like it) was coming! And it isn't far off the mark! I was planning to update my Dell Inspiron 710M, but at this point I'm not convinced it'll run 7 with full video support.
 
But do you think they will still add security patches or whatever those updates are, for free, til 2014?
 
The way I read if for x32 bit machines the 2014 date is valid for SP2.

???

"Microsoft is ending support for Windows XP with SP2 (Service Pack 2) due to take place on July 13, 2010"
 
???

"Microsoft is ending support for Windows XP with SP2 (Service Pack 2) due to take place on July 13, 2010"

If you went to the link in the post before mine and followed the how to install SP3 link.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/help/learn-how-to-install-windows-xp-service-pack-3-sp3

You find this

Note

There's no SP3 for the 64-bit version of Windows XP. If you're running the 64-bit version of Windows XP with SP2, you have the latest service pack and will continue to be eligible for support and receive updates until April 8, 2014. To find out what version you're running, see Is my PC running the 32-bit or 64-bit version of Windows?
 
Thanks
(Although it does not exactly say anything in that, about 32bit)
If you're running the 64-bit version of Windows XP with SP2, you have the latest service pack and will continue to be eligible for support and receive updates until April 8, 2014.
 
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So, gents, what's the latest opinion of 7?

I need to buy two new laptops for my business and I guess my only choice is to upgrade. Sure would like to stay with xp pro but...

To you in the IT business: Has 7 proven it's salt?

EDIT: These will be the only two machines we have and they will serve us for both our business and personal use so I don't have to worry about networking with xp pro. I just want reliable machines.

I gotta say, I hate learning new software versions. It would be like if every time you bought a new car the steering wheel was installed in a different location (okay today we're driving the car from the right rear seat) and the pedals were re-arranged.

Merry Christmas to all.
 
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So, gents, what's the latest opinion of 7?

I need to buy two new laptops for my business and I guess my only choice is to upgrade. Sure would like to stay with xp pro but...
So far I have not found any issues with Win 7. It is pretty user friendly and way nicer than Vista. The user interface is better than XP and way better than Vista. I have not had nearly the issues that I had with Vista but best of all it does not feel as dated as XP.

To you in the IT business: Has 7 proven it's salt?
I am not in the IT business, but I recently got a new computer at work. It was fully optimized for Win7 and had all kinds of new features on it. But alas our IT image is of XP and half the stuff does not work as a result. I spoke to the IT guys about when they thought we might go to Win7 and their response was that it would not be for another year or two. They have far too much management software and process set up for XP that a change to Win7 would disrupt their ability to handle all the software and security updates for our computers. IOW they would have to do work to test all their tools on Win7. Since our IT is a contractor group they told me that they are not motivated to do this until some customer of their wishes to go to Win7 and will pay for the testing of the tools. SIGH! Someone tell me again how outsourcing is better? By better I mean for the users, not the finance division.

I am seeing more and more people around the office using 'engineering equipment controllers'. Those are computers that are off of the IT grid and are managed by the user. Ostensibly for the direct development and control of products we are developing, but hey! they also run M$ office pretty darn good too!!! This was what we used to do many years ago. In the early 90's only management was allowed to have computers on their desks, everyone else had to use the group PCs or Macs. So engineers realized that since they were testing a lot of stuff that if they automated their test setup they could save money. So instrument controllers were ordered. These looked like Macs yet had an HPIB (now IEEE488) port on the back to automate the HP test equipment. AND THEY COULD RUN OTHER SOFTWARE!! How convenient.
 
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Scott,

It's my understanding that there's a version of 7 that comes with an XP mode. Would that solve your problem at work?
 
Scott,

It's my understanding that there's a version of 7 that comes with an XP mode. Would that solve your problem at work?

I'm running Win7/64 on my laptop. Win7 Pro comes with both the 32bit and 64bit version of Win7 along with a copy of XP that can be run on a Virtual PC. There are a few issues with XP apps that interface to external hardware but so far I've been able to deal with those successfully. And most XP apps will run under Win 7/64 directly without having to resort to the Virtual PC option. At this time there are only two apps I use that need the VPC to work. One is a PLC programming tool and the other is the reader/search engine for automotive shop manuals. I haven't been able to get OnTop (IFR sim) to work at all but AFaIK that's because it only works with hardware serial ports (comm1-2) and my laptop has none.
 
I was just forced to go to Win7 - HP stopped supporting the XP drivers a couple years ago. Motherboard fried, didn't feel like building a new box and there's far too many sales on hardware right now.

What I don't like about Win7 - too (*&*%&(^%) difficult to figure out what it's doing to me in the interest of "not expecting the consumer to know anything about computers". I took the drive out of the fried system, put it into a USB enclosure & no problems reading anything. I've slowly been installing the software from the fried system. Haven't gotten to FliteStar yet, it's not high priority right now. I did have to get a PCI-X parallel board so I could run the HP 6MP printer (talk about bullet-proof - it's over 12 years old and the only fix was an $8 rubber roller on the output side).

Except....

My login is set up as Administrator. Yet everytime I need to do something, I'm forced to change the security privs because "You are not an Administrator".

There was a time (In the XP Days) when this was not a problem. Now it is.So I'm spending an enormous amount of time trying to figure out the security/access process and rules. Not a happy camper.

Of course I'm writing this on my Unix box. But I've got to have a WinTel system for some billable work.
 
I'm very happy with Win7/64 on my laptop. I do run an XP Virtual Machine on the system for remote access, so that if something bad happens my "normal" OS is left alone.
 
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