William F. Buckley, Jr. on Medical Marijuana

[astanley]

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/wfb200506071421.asp

What an excellent piece. I like to see, that at least in the liberal and conservative media, this issue is getting the attention (and, IMO, the backing) it deserves.

As a supporter of the legalization and control of marijuana for medical use (I know a number of people who have greatly benefited from MM, two persons with serious glaucoma, 2 persons dying of HIV/AIDS, a person who suffers from crippling migranes and 2 folks dying of cancer), I applaud the Supreme Court's decision this week - because the Court cannot legislate, they must leave that to the Legislative and Executive branches. It's good to see the majority rule based in clear judicial thought. But it is even more delightful to see members of all forms of polarized media support MM initiatives, breaking down the issue to one of humanity rather than one of supposed morality.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[poadeleted3]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

 

[astanley]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

Hear, hear Joe.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[wsuffa]

In a newspaper article yesterday on the Griswold v Connecticut case, a woman spoke out against the decision and against contraception. She was quoted as indicating that "radical individualism" is the cause of many of our societal conflicts.

I read it to imply that this woman doesn't believe that we should be allowed to act individually, instead needing strict laws prohibiting individualism. I submit that is the same reason that marijuana in general, and MM specifically, are held to be illegal.

The Constitution was intended to be a permissive document, in other words, personal liberties were to be protected and allowed, not restricted, wherever possible. This country has certainly moved away from that.

 

[Ghery]

The Constitution was intended to be a permissive document, in other words, personal liberties were to be protected and allowed, not restricted, wherever possible. This country has certainly moved away from that.

Well, actually, it is intended to be a restrictive document in that it severely limits the power of the federal government. What happened to that?

 

[Frank Browne]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

Once again Joe, you have managed to cut right through all the BS to get at the heart of the issue.

 

[Licketysplit]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

I agree completely. I've often wondered why alcohol, tobacco products, and all other legal stimulants are not made illegal like pot. I look at it this way. It's either all or none and I don't buy the statement that pot leads to hard drugs.
Yeah, I smoked in my younger years, and I stayed home and mined my own business. Drinking made me think I was Mohammed Ali. Every thing I did that I am ashamed of and every friend I ever lost was directly related to Jose Quervo.
I don't think pot has played a part in destroying our society like smack, cocaine, meth, and crack has. Maybe legalizing pot will aid in getting rid of those other damaging chemicals.
I also despise random drug testing to. Lab you know who treated me like a criminal. I've never felt so violated in my life. My job says I have no choice in the matter. A refusal is the same as failure and in my State there goes your drivers licenses, and someday, it will find its way to the FAA via the DOT, and guess what. So the least they could do is have some good looking nurse attend the surrender in order to make it pleasurable, right?

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people. Don't believe me? Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club." It's about people getting stoned. For every 1 actual sick person who gets pot at a club, there are ten more who are there for the express purpose of getting high. I checked one out once. Was offered a script without exam or any legitimate medical purpose for $150 - cash.

 

[Licketysplit]

Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club."

I guess I live under a rock. I didn't know there was such a thing.

 

[Richard]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

The question is, do we possess free will? Depending upon who you ask, the answer will be yes, or it will be no. And both are correct. From a philisophical standpoint we are not free because the occurance of events outside of our control can prevent us from doing as we choose. There is also natural law which governs. These conspire to deny us free will.

To the moralist there is the belief there are a strict set of innate guidelines which should not be violated. Lack of adherence always has consequence. We get to decide.

For any society to thrive there are rules established by consensus which are designed to prosper that society. When these mores are violated the society begins to decay. Individualism, another word for rationalism, is contrary to society.

In all cases, the individual bears responsibility for his conduct because he has the freedom to choose. This determinism (freedom to choose) is often not compatable with morality because the tenants of morality right is right, regardless of passage of time or a given situation and that for morality to remain intact one must choose the stronger of two desires, that is, one must act in accordance with an established ideal and morals exist in themselves, regardless of the progression of our thoughts.

What it boils down to is the question whether ethics are relative. When one possess a strong moral understanding it becomes more clear what the choice is to be made. That is not to say choosing correctly is easy. To the existentialist there is no question of right or wrong because he believes whatever he chooses is right for him and that moment in time. This 'situational ethics' is a true source of society's woes. Also, the problem here is it becomes impossible to make the 'best' decision when the standard is not a known, or absolute.

No matter what you believe, we'll all find out who was right come the day of judgement. Unfortunately, many actively pursue those things which matter not but for the short time.

In case you're still reading and still wonder what this has to do with what Joe said, here it is: people have rights, but the govt has the obligation to form the society in the manner which has been prescribed. To deny the govt that obligation is to open the door towards, um, anarchy. Continue to chip away at that duty to protect the society and soon there will be nothing but mayhem. It's already in our schools and courts.

 

[SJP]

/sarcasm on.

We must protect the public :

I mean, lets face it - the terminally ill patient in chronic long-term pain might fire up a marijuana joint, and risk getting the munchies while they get stoned to enjoy a temporary reprieve from their hellish suffering.

/sarcasm off

Legislation
Regulation
Medication

 

[Ken Ibold]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people.

When my father in law, a straight-arrow Lt Cdr in the navy, came down with pancreatic cancer, he started growing pot on his farm. A good friend of his, a state trooper, asked him one day what it is. He was honest about it -- with no legal repurcussions because the trooper could see the fallacy of your statement.

Chemo destroys appetite and morale. Pot helps the appetite, eating helps the patient have more energy and therefore a more positive outlook. Albert died less than a year after his diagnosis, but I am firmly convinced that the pot helped improve his quality of life dramatically in those final weeks/months.

So I beg to differ. Pot can be a strong ally.

 

[gismo]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people. Don't believe me? Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club." It's about people getting stoned. For every 1 actual sick person who gets pot at a club, there are ten more who are there for the express purpose of getting high. I checked one out once. Was offered a script without exam or any legitimate medical purpose for $150 - cash.

Seems like you're saying MJ shouldn't be available to those who can truly benefit because others might abuse it. That's true for a lot of medicines.

 

[corjulo]

Medical marijuana nothing. It makes no sense for pot to be illegal and alcohol illegal. More to the point, it is absurd for a government of a supposedly free people to inflict the damage they have on it's own citizenry over a matter of adult choice.

Joe, glad to see the change in your position. I remember you being rather anti pot, pro government restriction in previous posts

As for medical uses. I too have always been dubious of such claims. But my best friend psychiatrist (and a republican) would adamantly disagree with us. He is convinced of medical benefits for at least three categories of mental illness; Manic (bipolar) as well as some eating and panic disorders.

 

[Anthony]

Why can't the Pharmaceutical companies extract the active ingredient in Marijauna and produce a legal pill which can be presribed by a doc?

 

[poadeleted3]

Joe, glad to see the change in your position. I remember you being rather anti pot, pro government restriction in previous posts

snip.

I'm not entirely sure how you can remember me taking such a stance. I've never in my life taken an anti-pot stance. Not even when I was a cop. I think pot should be legal, and always have. Further, I'm rarely in favor of government restrictions. In fact, I'm usually more than willing to rag on the government. Surely there are those who remember the fights I used to have with folks like Doug Hanson on such subjects?

I kind of suspect that rather than remembering me taking such stances you, like many folks I've ran into in the Northeast, simply expect such stances from a conservative Republican because that's what the blue state propaganda machines says we stand for. It's really a whole other subject, but it is an interesting attitude I've noticed more than a few times since moving to Philadelphia. I've had more than a few folks tell me what it must be that I believe.

 

[poadeleted3]

Why can't the Pharmaceutical companies extract the active ingredient in Marijauna and produce a legal pill which can be presribed by a doc?

Bet they can. Wonder how profitable it would be, though?

 

[corjulo]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people. Don't believe me? Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club." It's about people getting stoned. For every 1 actual sick person who gets pot at a club, there are ten more who are there for the express purpose of getting high. I checked one out once. Was offered a script without exam or any legitimate medical purpose for $150 - cash.

But, That can be said of almost any medication. How many kids are on stimulants just to enhance academic performance and have no behavioral problems? How many people pop valium or Provac who really don't need it?

In each case there are patients who truly need these drugs that have a whole lot of extra hassle because of the abusers. I agree we need a better delivery system then a club but for now thats all we have

 

[astanley]

Why can't the Pharmaceutical companies extract the active ingredient in Marijauna and produce a legal pill which can be presribed by a doc?

Not as effective, IIRC. They have a pill, Cannibol?, but the absorption of THC in concentration is not as effective versus when smoked. I also believe there is a strict control on who can study and work with it, through the DEA.

Some may not know this, but cocaine is used medically (quite extensively too). I was given a cocaine "losenge" to snort through my nose when I had it packed 3 years ago. They mix in bittering agents to make it digusting. I would have rather the doc just packed it up without it, bleeeech.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

I'm not entirely sure how you can remember me taking such a stance. I've never in my life taken an anti-pot stance. Not even when I was a cop. I think pot should be legal, and always have. Further, I'm rarely in favor of government restrictions. In fact, I'm usually more than willing to rag on the government. Surely there are those who remember the fights I used to have with folks like Doug Hanson on such subjects?

I kind of suspect that rather than remembering me taking such stances you, like many folks I've ran into in the Northeast, simply expect such stances from a conservative Republican because that's what the blue state propaganda machines says we stand for. It's really a whole other subject, but it is an interesting attitude I've noticed more than a few times since moving to Philadelphia. I've had more than a few folks tell me what it must be that I believe.

I think he is confusing you with Doug, Joe. IIRC Doug (and some others) were adamantly against marijuana; you and Agatha were supporters (among the conservative camp)

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people. Don't believe me? Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club." It's about people getting stoned. For every 1 actual sick person who gets pot at a club, there are ten more who are there for the express purpose of getting high. I checked one out once. Was offered a script without exam or any legitimate medical purpose for $150 - cash.

Just like the docs that have been arrested for overprescribing OC, or selling OC perscriptions... my cousin (black sheep) when and paid a doc in boston $500 to be qualified as "disabled". She now recieves Section 8, SSD payments, Welfare, WIC, etcetera.

If there is money to be made - someone with less than ideal ethics and morals will be there to cash in.

And, like Ken, I beg to differ entirely. I've seen and known many people who this has benefitted - people who were unable to eat, unable to rest, unable to move sometimes (migranes so severe that they could not get out of bed, were on a trickle of powerful narcotics, Imitrex, and neurontin), and marijuana helped them. And if that gives them the quality of life they deserve - far be it from me, or anyone else, to intrude on their pursuit of happiness.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Ken Ibold]

... you and Agatha were supporters (among the conservative camp)

insert thread about hemp clothing here

 

[bbchien]

Not as effective, IIRC. They have a pill, Cannibol?, but the absorption of THC in concentration is not as effective versus when smoked.

Marinol does NOT work.

 

[Frank Browne]

Keep it illegal. Pot isn't a medicine for sick people. Don't believe me? Go visit a so-called "medical marijuana club." It's about people getting stoned. For every 1 actual sick person who gets pot at a club, there are ten more who are there for the express purpose of getting high. I checked one out once. Was offered a script without exam or any legitimate medical purpose for $150 - cash.

I don't care if a person shoots up crack while swilling Jack Danials and smoking a joint. As long as they don't try to operate a vehicle, and are clear of eye and straight of back at work, it is none of my concern.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Marinol does NOT work.

Maybe I should give Pfizer my recipe for brownies ...

 

[Richard]

I don't care if a person shoots up crack while swilling Jack Danials and smoking a joint. As long as they don't try to operate a vehicle, and are clear of eye and straight of back at work, it is none of my concern.

Therein lies the rub. That shootin', swillin', smokin', behavior is a characterization of a mindset. Mebbe add rapin, or thievin' to the mix--does that get your attention? Let's say they do show up at work, do you really want them there? Bob Gerace has something to say about that. Yes, it is of your concern.

 

[Frank Browne]

Therein lies the rub. That shootin', swillin', smokin', behavior is a characterization of a mindset. Mebbe add rapin, or thievin' to the mix--does that get your attention? Let's say they do show up at work, do you really want them there? Bob Gerace has something to say about that. Yes, it is of your concern.

As long as what they do in their own home doesn't hurt anybody, and as long as it doesn't affect their work...no, it isn't my concern.

 

[Richard]

As long as what they do in their own home doesn't hurt anybody, and as long as it doesn't affect their work...no, it isn't my concern.

What I'm saying is that it is improbable to compartmentalize various behaviors. Snortin and swillin will leak into other areas of one's life and exert influence on performance. Honestly, how is it possible that shootin crack while in their own home doesn't hurt anyone?

 

[wsuffa]

Maybe I should give Pfizer my recipe for brownies ...

That reminds me of a story an acquantence told me about 15 years ago. Seems they spent a couple of days in Amsterdam. Bought some "brownies" for the rest of the trip. As they were riding the train, approaching the German border, they realized that the Customs folks would search thier stuff. So, they had to get rid of it. They ate them. All. About 3 pounds worth. They din't seem to know how to end the story....

 

[corjulo]

I think he is confusing you with Doug, Joe. IIRC Doug (and some others) were adamantly against marijuana; you and Agatha were supporters (among the conservative camp)

Cheers,

-Andrew

My bad, must have been Doug.