Will I be reported???

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Wooof

Filing Flight Plan
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Wooof
I am private pilot with instrument rating,
And today was my commercial checkride at another airport. So I took an airplane to take a test but just after finishing my oral portion the weather changed really bad. My checker and I agreed to make our flight test canceled and I decided to wait until the weather become better to go back to my base airport.

And after a few hours, Metar at both airports looks not that bad and the rain stopped at the moment. So I took off from the airport with VFR but on my way back to base airport, the weather condition on my destination changed IFR condition suddenly. At that moment, I didn’t know what should I do and I was kinda panic. I didn’t file my IFR plan so I requested the approach “request radar vector to the xxx airport due to visibility” and he told me your destination is in IFR condition so you are not allow to land with VFR, I replied Umm do I have to file IFR plan? I took off with the VFR but due to weather I am requesting radar vector for ILS approach on the airport, and it seems like he was mad a little and told me are you with your instructor? Are you qualified with the IFR? And I answered i am doing solo flight and I have Instrument rating, and he gave me squawk codes and I could get instructions for the ILS approach. But my question is it seems like he was mad at that moment, did I break any regulations and will I be reported? I am so worried about it so I can’t sleep. Well, I totally agree it was my fault that I didn’t check the weather information properly and made this situation. And it will be really appreciated if you guys give me any feedbacks
 
Your method of requesting the pop-up IFR clearance probably left a lot of doubt in the controller's mind as to the validity of your claims of having an Instrument ticket.

That said, you have an Instrument ticket and do not know how to request a pop-up IFR clearance to get an instrument approach into your home base?
 
As to your primary question, as long as you were not given a number to call, you are likely ok...
 
He was probably just trying to get you to ask for an IFR Clearance. He can't give you one unless you ask. Sounds like he bent the rules a bit and gave you one anyway.
Also would the weather have let you ask for a Special VFR?

Brian
 
That shouldn’t have caused you to panic. Stay VFR and find somewhere else to land, or ask to pick up and IFR clearance and continue. I doubt you’ll hear any more about it, though he may have suspected you were attempting to break the rules.
 
My "take what has happened and learn from it" comment is the following:

Once the nerves/emotions of the incident settle out, get with a good CFI-I and review the what happened and how it happened of the entire incident. Pick the entire flight apart to discover and discuss the different links of the failure chain.

From this discussion develop a lesson or three of ground and flight to improve your skills and your confidence in recognizing the correct action and doing it.

Then get out there and practice and resharpen your skills.
 
smv said:
Your method of requesting the pop-up IFR clearance probably left a lot of doubt in the controller's mind as to the validity of your claims of having an Instrument ticket.

That said, you have an Instrument ticket and do not know how to request a pop-up IFR clearance to get an instrument approach into your home base?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I didn’t have any idea about pop-up ifr until I searched about it when I get home. I have never learned about it before. Could you let me know what is the proper way to request pop-up ifr? Thank you for your comment
 
So a question from a potential IR hopeful, if you want to pickup a pop up clearance , do you have to switch to FSS and file a plan and then request or can ATC get the plan in place for you and immediately give you a clearance ?
 
brcase said:
He was probably just trying to get you to ask for an IFR Clearance. He can't give you one unless you ask. Sounds like he bent the rules a bit and gave you one anyway.
Also would the weather have let you ask for a Special VFR?


Brian
Click to expand...

I didn’t know that he can’t give me IFR clearance unless I request it. And I couldn’t think about the special VFR at that moment. Thank you for your feedback
 
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WannFly said:
So a question from a potential IR hopeful, if you want to pickup a pop up clearance , do you have to switch to FSS and file a plan and then request or can ATC get the plan in place for you and immediately give you a clearance ?
Click to expand...
Ask ATC that question. They may tell you to switch to FSS and file or they may file it for you.
 
WannFly said:
So a question from a potential IR hopeful, if you want to pickup a pop up clearance , do you have to switch to FSS and file a plan and then request or can ATC get the plan in place for you and immediately give you a clearance ?
Click to expand...
Just ask ATC. If you’re already on FF, they already have your info, and will give you a clearance limit and route
 
"Metropolis Approach, Cessna 12345, I'd like to request a pop-up IFR."
"Cessna 12345, go ahead."
"I'm five miles north of Littlesberg, I'd like direct Podunkville, 5000 feet. I'm a 172-slant-golf."
...and see what they say...

I wonder if the controller might have labeled you as an "emergency"? I believe sometimes they'll do that if the pilot seems to be having one, even if the pilot doesn't use the magic "E-word". If they were asking you whether you had an instructor on board, they were probably sensing you were in trouble. And once you're having an emergency, regs are out the window and it's just about getting you down safely.
 
I doubt anything will come of it.

Now you know the right way if comes up again. I've started just filing IFR anytime I'm going somewhere just in case, also you can stop worrying about whether you need to descend, turn, or climb to miss the scattered clouds ahead.
 
...also remember, to do this "pop-up IFR" business legally, you have to be not just instrument rated, but also instrument-CURRENT. And the airplane has to be instrument-capable and all that stuff. Same requirements as if you were filing ahead of time.
 
Wooof said:
I didn’t file my IFR plan so I requested the approach “request radar vector to the xxx airport due to visibility” and he told me your destination is in IFR condition so you are not allow to land with VFR
Click to expand...

Yup, as others said that was you only mistake...should have been "request pop up to XXX"...your statement probably inferred that you were an unprepared VFR pilot now in trouble...in reality you were an unprepared IFR pilot but now that you know a pop up is a thing it is easy peasy and you would have likely been given a clearance without hesitation. Use them all the time when CA Coastal fields get socked in with the marine layer before arrival.

And not sure that is true that they can not offer IFR clearance if you are rated, current and capable...I have had a pop up offered getting into some marginal VFR and terrain but wanted to avoid clouds due to potential icing with MVA altitudes as long as I safely could have. SVFR...that needs to be requested.

WannFly said:
So a question from a potential IR hopeful, if you want to pickup a pop up clearance , do you have to switch to FSS and file a plan and then request or can ATC get the plan in place for you and immediately give you a clearance ?
Click to expand...

A "pop up" typically means you get a an IFR clearance directly from the controller you are talking to without filing or FSS. Generally if you are in the controller's sector especially due to unforeseen weather they can issue you a pop up easy peasy and usually without hesitation. Now if you just take off VFR and request a pop up on a long cross country because you were too lazy to file...that is when they may send you to FSS to file if they are busy
 
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Wooof said:
Honestly, I didn’t have any idea about pop-up ifr until I searched about it when I get home. I have never learned about it before. Could you let me know what is the proper way to request pop-up ifr? Thank you for your comment
Click to expand...

I find that very hard to believe if you are instrument rated. When and where did you get your IR?
 
luvflyin said:
I find that very hard to believe if you are instrument rated. When and where did you get your IR?
Click to expand...

I suspect he was taught by one of those ab-inito pilot mills. The instructor himself likely has no “real world” experience either - just training students under the hood.

It’s not the OP’s fault, but illustrates what’s wrong with these pilot training operations these days.
 
Serious teachable moment here.

Not trying to be a dick but you 100% should know what a pop up is and how to obtain one. After all you are doing a check ride for a commercial ticket.

This really is a routine situation.
You are VFR. Weather goes south...you really need to be on a clearance to stay compliant.

As many much more knowledgeable pilots have recommended....Ask for pop up clearance.

If you really want to take it a step further, be 100% prepared to read back everything the controller asks you for...he may ask you to cite chapter and verse data for a plan ( I have had this happen and to be perfectly honest, I choked and had to get him to ask me line by line) or he may ask you for it item by item...

Also @AggieMike88 really has a solid post above. Rock solid advice.
 
Why did you go through all the time expense to get an IR and then not use it? Forget the pop up, if the weather was bad, why in the world didn’t you file IFR?
 
Salty said:
Why did you go through all the time expense to get an IR and then not use it? Forget the pop up, if the weather was bad, why in the world didn’t you file IFR?
Click to expand...

I don’t get why an instrument rated pilot wouldn’t just click the mic and say “request IFR clearance to...”. Should’ve done that several times during instrument training.
 
Wooof said:
I didn’t know that he can’t give me IFR clearance unless I request it. And I couldn’t think about the special VFR at that moment. Thank you for your feedback
Click to expand...
Same goes for Special VFR. You have to ask. I once heard a controller practically beg a pilot to ask. "Is there anything SPECIAL I can do for you?..."
 
Lon Stratton said:
Same goes for Special VFR. You have to ask. I once heard a controller practically beg a pilot to ask. "Is there anything SPECIAL I can do for you?..."
Click to expand...
Does a Special VFR clearance allow you to land at a socked in airport or just take off from one if it is clear nearby?
 
Wooof said:
Honestly, I didn’t have any idea about pop-up ifr until I searched about it when I get home. I have never learned about it before. Could you let me know what is the proper way to request pop-up ifr? Thank you for your comment
Click to expand...

.....“request radar vector to the xxx airport due to visibility” and he told me your destination is in IFR condition so you are not allow to land with VFR, I replied Umm do I have to file IFR plan? I took off with the VFR but due to weather I am requesting radar vector for ILS approach on the airport,.....

1) request radar vector to xxx airport due to visibility could be that you are just having trouble finding the airport and want some help. This is not an IFR Request.
2) requesting vector for ILS approach is a request for IFR clearance. Controller cannot give you an IFR clearance until you request. You did. That was a "pop up request.' You don't have to use the words "pop up."
3) the controller may have just been frustrated that he was having to make so many transmissions and ask so many questions when one would have been enough. He might have been mad about that. He shouldn't have let his anger sound through on the radio. But it happens, a lot, get used to it. Don't let it scare you.
4) when you requested clearance for the ILS Approach, you did file a flight plan. It's called an Abbreviated Flight Plan. Look in the Pilot Controller Glossary. You will find this:

ABBREVIATED IFR FLIGHT PLANS− An
authorization by ATC requiring pilots to submit only
that information needed for the purpose of ATC. It
includes only a small portion of the usual IFR flight
plan information. In certain instances, this may be
only aircraft identification, location, and pilot
request. Other information may be requested if
needed by ATC for separation/control purposes. It is
frequently used by aircraft which are airborne and
desire an instrument approach or by aircraft which are
on the ground and desire a climb to VFR-on-top.
(See VFR-ON-TOP.)
(Refer to AIM.)
 
JOhnH said:
Does a Special VFR clearance allow you to land at a socked in airport or just take off from one if it is clear nearby?
Click to expand...

As long as "socked in" still allows Clear of Clouds and one mile visibility, yes. And you can also get SVFR thru a Surface Area with no intent to land at an Airport in it. This isn't so common nowadays with the demise of much Class G airspace surrounding Surface Areas that would make it useful.
 
JOhnH said:
Does a Special VFR clearance allow you to land at a socked in airport or just take off from one if it is clear nearby?
Click to expand...

SVFR does not allow you to enter IMC, it just reduces the 3-1/5/2 VFR limitations to be able to operate clear of clouds if granted.
 
ateamer said:
I don’t get why an instrument rated pilot wouldn’t just click the mic and say “request IFR clearance to...”. Should’ve done that several times during instrument training.
Click to expand...

This is better phraseology. "Pop-up clearance" is just jargon/nickname for getting and IFR clearance when in the air. If you want to gain the confidence of the controller, say ".... request IFR clearance, destination xyz."

Your instructor failed you. But I've noticed a lot of instrument-rated pilots are weak when it comes to getting clearances in the air (pop-ups). The other important thing lacking is how to get clearances and releases at non-towered fields. I've encountered a lot of CFI-Is who don't know how to do those. Every time I had been asked to help prep an IR student for their checkride (after instructed by their own CFI-I), I would ask them how they would do it. They would never have a clue - guaranteed.
 
Controllers almost always sound a little PO'ed if you don't sound knowledgeable in what you are asking for. But they are a good bunch of folks and I am sure he got over it pretty quickly. No number to call, no worries.

Special VFR and pop up clearances should have been taught in the IR ground. I went to a Pt 141 ''puppy mill'' and both subjects were taught and tested on in ground school, and practiced in the air.
 
As an instrument rated pilot you should be the one answering those questions. Not asking. I’m not usually a prick here but this kinda ticks me off. Should been part of ground school. Should have been part of flight training. Pop up clearance should be something easy to do. Often when close to destination it is exceedingly simple. They would have likely just cleared you to the IAF or vectored you in. Slightly more tricky the further away you are-but still Pretty simple.
Id find an instructor and do a good IPC to see what the cobwebs exist and what needs to be worked on.
 
Shawn said:
SVFR does not allow you to enter IMC, it just reduces the 3-1/5/2 VFR limitations to be able to operate clear of clouds if granted.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it lets you in when things are less than 3-1/5/2 as long as you can maintain Clear of Clouds and 1 mile visibility. 3-1/5/2 is the minima for VMC. So allowing you in when it is IMC is what it does do.

INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS
(IMC)− Meteorological conditions expressed
in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling
less than the minima specified for visual meteorological
conditions.
(See INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES.)
(See VISUAL FLIGHT RULES.)
(See VISUAL METEOROLOGICAL
CONDITIONS.)
 
kath said:
"Metropolis Approach, Cessna 12345, I'd like to request a pop-up IFR."
"Cessna 12345, go ahead."
"I'm five miles north of Littlesberg, I'd like direct Podunkville, 5000 feet. I'm a 172-slant-golf."
...and see what they say...
Click to expand...

Two ways how this continues:

A.
'Cessna 45 are you instrument rated and equipped?'
'Affirmative'
'Cessna 45 squawk 0204 and ident'
etc.

Or

B.
'Contact flight service at xxx.xx to file then back with me this frequency'

A is what you get with some sleepy military tracon where the guy doesn't mind punching a few numbers into his keyboard. B is what you get at a class B approach where you can't get a word in to start with.


The simplest solution is just to file IFR for a point to point trip in iffy weather.
 
I was once flying VFR to northeast Kansas to an airport without an instrument approach. The weather upon takeoff in central Kansas was VFR with a ceiling of about 4000 ft. The problem was that it was incredibly rough. The cloud layer was forecast only as a scattered layer, and reports even 50 miles from where I was, showed clear below 12000. I hate the bumps, so i requested a IFR clearance to VFR on top. The Wichita approach controller gave me a clearance to the Hutchinson airport and to climb to 7000 ft. I thought that it was odd that he was clearing me to Hutchinson, which was actually behind me. I am guessing he did that because he was in control of the airspace that included Hutchinson, and I was going to eventually be entering the Kansas City Center sector. To give me an IFR clearance toward my destination would have meant coordinating with Kansas City center. I only needed the clearance to climb through the clouds. Once safely vfr on top, I canceled IFR. If there are controllers on this board, maybe they can confirm or debunk my analysis.
 
weilke said:
Two ways how this continues:

A.
'Cessna 45 are you instrument rated and equipped?'
'Affirmative'
'Cessna 45 squawk 0204 and ident'
etc.

Or

B.
'Contact flight service at xxx.xx to file then back with me this frequency'

A is what you get with some sleepy military tracon where the guy doesn't mind punching a few numbers into his keyboard. B is what you get at a class B approach where you can't get a word in to start with.


The simplest solution is just to file IFR for a point to point trip in iffy weather.
Click to expand...

You forgot C., where they don't even say "Cessna 12345, go ahead" before giving you B.
 
Wooof said:
I am private pilot with instrument rating,
And today was my commercial checkride at another airport. So I took an airplane to take a test but just after finishing my oral portion the weather changed really bad. My checker and I agreed to make our flight test canceled and I decided to wait until the weather become better to go back to my base airport.

And after a few hours, Metar at both airports looks not that bad and the rain stopped at the moment. So I took off from the airport with VFR but on my way back to base airport, the weather condition on my destination changed IFR condition suddenly. At that moment, I didn’t know what should I do and I was kinda panic. I didn’t file my IFR plan so I requested the approach “request radar vector to the xxx airport due to visibility” and he told me your destination is in IFR condition so you are not allow to land with VFR, I replied Umm do I have to file IFR plan? I took off with the VFR but due to weather I am requesting radar vector for ILS approach on the airport, and it seems like he was mad a little and told me are you with your instructor? Are you qualified with the IFR? And I answered i am doing solo flight and I have Instrument rating, and he gave me squawk codes and I could get instructions for the ILS approach. But my question is it seems like he was mad at that moment, did I break any regulations and will I be reported? I am so worried about it so I can’t sleep. Well, I totally agree it was my fault that I didn’t check the weather information properly and made this situation. And it will be really appreciated if you guys give me any feedbacks
Click to expand...

Others have addressed the pop up question.

My only comment is that you were in a stressful situation where you required a service you are qualified to get. Who the F cares about whether the controller is mad or not???!!! Don't worry about that stuff, too many pilots are worried about controllers and whether they are angry or not and it affects decision making. Save your life, get what you need out of the controller, don't give a crap as to whether he is mad or not, his job is to assist you. Don't lose sleep over this, you did nothing wrong getting a pop up. I'd be more upset about the weather and if I should have known it would be ifr at the destination. In fact, I would have probably just filed if I thought it would be close to IMC, one less thing to worry about and good practice.
 
Piper18O said:
I was once flying VFR to northeast Kansas to an airport without an instrument approach. The weather upon takeoff in central Kansas was VFR with a ceiling of about 4000 ft. The problem was that it was incredibly rough. The cloud layer was forecast only as a scattered layer, and reports even 50 miles from where I was, showed clear below 12000. I hate the bumps, so i requested a IFR clearance to VFR on top. The Wichita approach controller gave me a clearance to the Hutchinson airport and to climb to 7000 ft. I thought that it was odd that he was clearing me to Hutchinson, which was actually behind me. I am guessing he did that because he was in control of the airspace that included Hutchinson, and I was going to eventually be entering the Kansas City Center sector. To give me an IFR clearance toward my destination would have meant coordinating with Kansas City center. I only needed the clearance to climb through the clouds. Once safely vfr on top, I canceled IFR. If there are controllers on this board, maybe they can confirm or debunk my analysis.
Click to expand...

Pretty much just what you said. If he gives you a Clearance Limit outside his airspace, there is coordination to be done, either verbally or entering a Flight Plan into the ATC computer, likely both. What else was in the Clearance? You got a Clearance Limit and altitude, but what did he give you for route? Did you tell him what your destination was?
 
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The more important lesson here is "How did I get into this mess?" Was your pre-flight weather analysis insufficient? How could it have been improved? Why did you not file IFR? Should you have, given the larger weather perspective? What criteria should you use to determine the need to file? Do you need to review ATC procedures and tools available to you as an IFR-rated pilot? How could you improve your awareness of available procedures and tools? Encountering deterioriating weather enroute while VFR should not normally be a problem for a current IFR-rated pilot.
 
luvflyin said:
Pretty much just what you said. If he gives you a Clearance Limit outside his airspace, there is coordination to be done, either verbally or entering a Flight Plan into the ATC computer, likely both. What else was in the Clearance? You got a Clearance Limit and altitude, but what did he give you for route? Did you tell him what your destination was?
Click to expand...
I did tell him where I was headed which was way out of his sector. My request was just for an IFR clearance to VFR on top. I believe he cleared me to Hutchinson via radar vectors with instructions to fly present heading, which was odd because present heading was going away from Hutchinson. I obviously canceled IFR While still in his sector.
 
Piper18O said:
I did tell him where I was headed which was way out of his sector. My request was just for an IFR clearance to VFR on top. I believe he cleared me to Hutchinson via radar vectors with instructions to fly present heading, which was odd because present heading was going away from Hutchinson. I obviously canceled IFR While still in his sector.
Click to expand...

He was probably very aware of what the tops were and that you'd be cancelling soon. He's got I's to dot and T's to cross. Clearance limit, route and altitude are the minimum elements required in a Clearance. Lets have some fun. You went Nordo. Whatcha gonna do.
 
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