Wife wants a twin, but does it exist?

Oh, but if you want 200 KTAS, it is possible with the right 310. I'm seeing 190-194 right now at 27 gph LOP, I'm going to do some more work to try to hit 200 with drag reduction.
 
KLRDMD said:
Paul McCracken, widely regarded as one of the best Beechcraft gurus in the world, did the pre-buy on my Baron so I feel pretty comfortable that I bought a good example.
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You may have. And you probably also got a good Twinkie as well. All I'm saying is that like any twin, there are a lot of PA30s out there that will eat a pilots lunch from a maintenance standpoint.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Oh, but if you want 200 KTAS, it is possible with the right 310. I'm seeing 190-194 right now at 27 gph LOP, I'm going to do some more work to try to hit 200 with drag reduction.
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Yeah, 200 is a trick in a 310 without turbos. With turbos it's reasonably doable but you need O2 masks.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, 200 is a trick in a 310 without turbos. With turbos it's reasonably doable but you need O2 masks.
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I am finding with 520s on the 310N and careful attention to detail, it's possible, even LOP. I'd be there if I had 550s or ROP, but burning more fuel either way.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I am finding with 520s on the 310N and careful attention to detail, it's possible, even LOP. I'd be there if I had 550s or ROP, but burning more fuel either way.
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That's it, unless you decrease drag, you have to increase fuel exponentially to get more speed. That's why we turbocharged planes, it's more efficient to reduce drag than increase power to increase speed.

The best I could get was 196TAS at 8500' at 100°ROP and 2675 rpm with the IO-470s burning 36 gph combined, and it was a cold day.
 
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My 190+ was last summer at 6k, light weight, 2500 RPM LOP. So I could hit 200+ today easily by going 2700 RPM ROP, I just want to do it at the power settings I already use.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My 190+ was last summer at 6k, light weight, 2500 RPM LOP. So I could hit 200+ today easily by going 2700 RPM ROP, I just want to do it at the power settings I already use.
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Yeah, I just tried it the once, never played with altitudes, can't stand seeing those fuel flows.:lol:
 
Forget the twin, does your wife have a sister :rofl:

One item that I'll comment on is your plan to do instruction in the plane. On the one hand, the safest bet would be a Seminole, Duchess, Travelair or Twin Comnanche in that order. These are the common training twins. An entire different way to go would be to offer checkouts and trial flights in some other kind of twin. I'd check with the various type clubs to see what the need is for those kinds of services. Another business model is to just get experience in a brand of twin and offer dual in the customers plane and use yours for commuting to and from the job. Insurance will be a factor and you might want to look into this before you get your commercial operation off the ground.
 
You can't go wrong with a Beechcraft......B55 is the go!!!
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Forget the twin, does your wife have a sister :rofl:

One item that I'll comment on is your plan to do instruction in the plane. On the one hand, the safest bet would be a Seminole, Duchess, Travelair or Twin Comnanche in that order. These are the common training twins. An entire different way to go would be to offer checkouts and trial flights in some other kind of twin. I'd check with the various type clubs to see what the need is for those kinds of services. Another business model is to just get experience in a brand of twin and offer dual in the customers plane and use yours for commuting to and from the job. Insurance will be a factor and you might want to look into this before you get your commercial operation off the ground.
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American Flyers uses 310s.
 
The Duke has it all! Just compare to the Cessna lineup of twins! A Duke has:

-the size of a 340
-the fuel burn of a 421
-the speed of a 310
-initial purchase price of all three combined!
-recurring MX of all three combined!

It's like getting three airplanes in one!

Beechcraft: the perfect airplane regardless of your mission!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The Duke has it all! Just compare to the Cessna lineup of twins! A Duke has:

-the size of a 340
-the fuel burn of a 421
-the speed of a 310
-initial purchase price of all three combined!
-recurring MX of all three combined!

It's like getting three airplanes in one!

Beechcraft: the perfect airplane regardless of your mission!
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:rofl::rofl::rofl: But you look cooler in a Duke than all three combined, I want a Duke/LearBaron.:lol:

I'm pretty sure I can operate a Beech 18 for half what it costs to operate a Duke.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: But you look cooler in a Duke than all three combined, I want a Duke/LearBaron.:lol:
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The demise of xtranormal was a shame - my LearBaron video went down with it. :(
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Insurance will be a factor and you might want to look into this before you get your commercial operation off the ground.
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I didn't mean to imply I would be trying to make a commercial venture out of it. I just meant that I could share operating costs and provide some dual with a few of my coworkers.
 
Banjo33 said:
I didn't mean to imply I would be trying to make a commercial venture out of it. I just meant that I could share operating costs and provide some dual with a few of my coworkers.
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Yep, the Business/Pleasure policy I had on the 310 allowed having 5 students in training.
 
Henning said:
It's still out there, you can find it on YouTube, I saw it not long ago.
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I've seen the Duke video on YouTube (which wasn't me), but not the LearBaron one (which I made after Felix said the P-Baron was really like a Lear).
 
Mods, if you prefer, you can add "SPOUSES: KEEP OUT!!!" to the thread title, I understand, lol.

**SPOILER ALERT**
Twin owners, if you're scared to know how much you spend (approx.) to fly your 310/Baron/Twinkie, read no further! :hairraise:

For the rest of us that are gluttons for punishment, have a severe dislike for unspent money, or those of us that know we can't keep our wives from seeing the bottom-line at some point...so we better come clean up front :nono:; I've tried to calculate the costs of owning a twin based on several hours worth of reading on BT, POA, random Google hits, and with the help of feedback from 5 different twin owners this week.

Obviously everyone's situation will likely be different based on condition of the aircraft, local economics, etc., but here's what I've found so far:

BE55/C310 (96 hrs./year [8 hrs./mth for easy math])

Monthly Costs:
Hangar 200 (est.)
Insurance 250 (est. 3k/yr.)
Annual 625 (est. $7.5k, but be prepared for the occasional $20k surprise annual)
$1075/month fixed

Fuel 1200 (est. 8h/mth, 25gph, $6gph =$150/hr)
Eng. 480 (est. 60k with 1000 TBO = $60/hr)
Oil 30 (24qts/50 hrs. = 3.60/hr)
$2785/mth (+ note if you're financing any of it)
*or $348/hr wet all-in (96 hrs/year)
*or $213.75 wet plus fixed costs

Twinkie differences:
Annual 417 (est. 5k)
$867/mth fixed

Fuel 720 (15gph)
Eng 320 (est. 40k = $40/hr)
Oil 15 ($1.80/hr)

$1922/mth
*$242/hr wet all-in
*$131.80 plus fixed costs

Unmentioned costs include budgeting for paint, interior, avionics upgrades, GPS subscriptions, and (per one recommendation) keeping $20k handy for pop-up surprises. I also have not accounted for any periodic training (highly recommended).

For any of you owners that think I've grossly misrepresented a figure or missed something completely, I'd be happy to edit the post for accuracy.
 
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For estimates, what you have is probably reasonable. I doubt you'll get a Baron or 310 down to 20 GPH block time, 25+ GPH is probably more accurate. Also, while the surprise $20,000 annual is possible on a Baron or 310 I doubt that a surprise annual would be more than $10,000 on the Twin Comanche. Finally, I'm paying less than $2000 a year insurance on my twin Comanche.

Based on your research with a little bit of tweaking it looks like the Twin Comanche would run a little over $200 an hour and the Baron or 310 close to $350 an hour. That's fairly consistent with my experience having owned both a Baron and Twin Comanche.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I've seen the Duke video on YouTube (which wasn't me), but not the LearBaron one (which I made after Felix said the P-Baron was really like a Lear).
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I found your Lear/Baron one as well, but I wasn't looking for it so I forget what xtranormal **** search string I used.
 
KLRDMD said:
For estimates, what you have is probably reasonable. I doubt you'll get a Baron or 310 down to 20 GPH block time, 25+ GPH is probably more accurate. Also, while the surprise $20,000 annual is possible on a Baron or 310 I doubt that a surprise annual would be more than $10,000 on the Twin Comanche. Finally, I'm paying less than $2000 a year insurance on my twin Comanche.

Based on your research with a little bit of tweaking it looks like the Twin Comanche would run a little over $200 an hour and the Baron or 310 close to $350 an hour. That's fairly consistent with my experience having owned both a Baron and Twin Comanche.
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I was under 23 block, but I'm LOP by 500'.
 
Thanks Ken, I updated to 25gph.

How much do turbos add to the annual Mx of a Twinkie? Do they have an overhaul cycle, similar to the engine?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've seen the Duke video on YouTube (which wasn't me), but not the LearBaron one (which I made after Felix said the P-Baron was really like a Lear).
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The author of the Duke video bought another one a year or two after he made the video.
 
Banjo33 said:
Thanks Ken, I updated to 25gph. How much do turbos add to the annual Mx of a Twinkie? Do they have an overhaul cycle, similar to the engine?
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The turbos in the TC are manual Ray Jay ones. The same as used in many other older applications. The general consensus is that since TCs like to fly high due to their wing, turbos really don't add much until above 15,000 ft (specifically in the TC, not in other applications).

I know my normally aspirated TC flies very well at 14,500 ft, the highest I've had it so far.

Theoretically, the Ray Jays will go an engine TBO before needing work but I would plan on at least one overhaul at mid time. I had the Ray Jay in a Mooney F model and no one I knew with Ray Jays got "book" numbers. Mine would fail to maintain MP around 13,000 ft (you only boost to 27"). By 17,500 ft I was down to about 22" MP. The Ray Jays certainly helped in the Mooney, but not as much as was advertised. And I wouldn't want a TC with Ray Jays either as down low (below 10,000 ft) they're slower since the turbos are always in the system making it less efficient.

Henning has experience with the Ray Jays on a Travel Air.
 
So is the 310 the "RV-10" of the twin threads now? :D

I still think this mission could be accomplished by a cheaper to operate single and more comfortably for pedestrians with one fuel stop but hey, this 'Murica, if a man can afford options then more power to him.
 
Banjo33 said:
Thanks Ken, I updated to 25gph.

How much do turbos add to the annual Mx of a Twinkie? Do they have an overhaul cycle, similar to the engine?
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Couple bucks an hour for turbos tops unless you run hard enough to cook a set, and that's running really hard.
 
hindsight2020 said:
So is the 310 the "RV-10" of the twin threads now? :D

I still think this mission could be accomplished by a cheaper to operate single and more comfortably for pedestrians with one fuel stop but hey, this 'Murica, if a man can afford options then more power to him.
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Of course it can be accomplished, but did you miss the part where he says his wife wants a twin?
 
hindsight2020 said:
So is the 310 the "RV-10" of the twin threads now? :D

I still think this mission could be accomplished by a cheaper to operate single and more comfortably for pedestrians with one fuel stop but hey, this 'Murica, if a man can afford options then more power to him.
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Some people are not comfortable traveling at night or in IMC in a single engine plane, I am one of them. If I want a plane to use for travel, I buy a twin, I've had two. I had a turbo normalized Travelair which was a great plane, extremely efficient, but to get 180kts TAS out of it required an oxygen mask. I was pretty happy with 160 out of it though which it would do pretty much at any altitude on 17gph combined. Living and working it out in the mountains out west it was great.

The 310 is a different plane though, the cabin is considerably roomier than the Bonanza/Travelair/55-56 Baron cabin. With 520hp you have pretty reasonable single engine climb ability with full fuel, 350 lbs in the front and 150lbs baggage in the back at DAs < 5000'. One up full fuel I climbed nicely from 250' to 7500' where I leveled off for cruise and ended the test. I was still climbing a few hundred feet a minute, and this was off the coast of Florida in the spring. The 310 would give me 175-180kts TAS at 21gph in the 7500'-10,000' range. It would go faster, but it costs fuel. The nice thing about 520hp available is I can out climb a 210 on 21gph as well. As soon as I'm established in my climb around 500' I grab the mixtures. Normally I would climb at 24 gph, but if I wasn't in a rush to get to altitude I'd climb at 21.
 
If I wanted to downgrade to a single from the 310, I really can't think of one that I could do that with that would save me money while maintaining the speed. An A36 is the closest, but still slower (and I really don't like them). A Malibu costs way more than a 310. A Saratoga is just... no.

Could go turboprop, but it would be much cheaper to get into a Cheyenne or an MU2 than a Meridian/JetProp or TBM.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If I wanted to downgrade to a single from the 310, I really can't think of one that I could do that with that would save me money while maintaining the speed. An A36 is the closest, but still slower (and I really don't like them). A Malibu costs way more than a 310. A Saratoga is just... no.

Could go turboprop, but it would be much cheaper to get into a Cheyenne or an MU2 than a Meridian/JetProp or TBM.
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Just go turbo Cirrus.


:rofl:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Did he finally learn that the Duke's TIO-541s don't have an intake that goes through the sump?
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I think he sold it before he had to take the cowlings off (to buy a King Air, which he sold in favor of a 421.....).
 
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