Why We Need Aviation User Fees

dell30rb said:
www.americaflies.us

sign the petition there
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Well the internet petition we signed did get the attention it promised, I don't really see why a new one would be any different. We got back a laughable letter (The "fair share" bit was hilarious given... nevermind ) titled "Why We Need Aviation User Fees" which IMHO was is a fairly blatant statement that they aren't going to even try to compromise and we can go pound sand.
 
FWIW, the "abolish the TSA" petition got a similar response. These petitions are only a method to troll for e-mail addresses
 
I don't suppose this would dip the fuel tax, no it doesn't work like that they just keep raising taxes adding taxes.. They spend money they [we] don't even have yet just to justify raising the taxes even more and when the taxes don't cover it all they add "fees"

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Cap'n Jack said:
FWIW, the "abolish the TSA" petition got a similar response. These petitions are only a method to troll for e-mail addresses
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The bottom line is although they pretend to listen they don't give a **** about anybody else but themselves its US vs THEM

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p1l0t said:
The bottom line is although they pretend to listen they don't give a **** about anybody else but themselves its US vs THEM

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9000 people signing an online petition is not going to have any affect on any law no matter the topic.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why are people so bent out of shape over something that will not affect most of GA?
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It's a real good thing our local traffic chopper guy traded in his JetRanger for an R44 about a year ago. He's based at a Class D airport. With his previous helicopter being turbine, and flying in controlled airspace, and flying morning/evening rush hours with multiple refueling stops thrown in, and flying extra flights whenever there is something newsworthy happening, or one of many charity events, I could easily have seen him getting hit for $$$$$ every single day, too.

That guy is also one of the biggest GA ambassadors in this area so it does hit GA.

Once the user fees get passed along to the passengers, and they will, and 135 flights on anything with a turbine start to dwindle, and revenues go down, and even more bureaucrats are hired to collect the fees and even more money is needed to pay them, then the rest of GA will start feeling it by getting hit with either more user fees, higher fuel taxes, or both.

This was a case of fixing something that wasn't broken.
 
Ghery said:
You haven't ridden on toll roads in NY state or NJ recently, have you. I have. I wouldn't call them the best roads in America. Far from it.

I agree that the fees would not be used to improve the system, however.
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2010 and the NYS thruway was the best highway we used.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe in a user pays system, the best roads in America are toll roads, But I do not believe that the FAA user fees would be used to improve the system.
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Sure. Yessiree. There is a toll along the very short part of 95 in Southern NH. The rest of 95 isn't a toll road. I'm still wondering how NH can do stick a toll there, a freakin $2 toll...
 
Bob Noel said:
Sure. Yessiree. There is a toll along the very short part of 95 in Southern NH. The rest of 95 isn't a toll road. I'm still wondering how NH can do stick a toll there, a freakin $2 toll...
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The same way the Wa. State placed a toll on the 520 bridge. They needed the money. They can't get the Democrats to cut spending, so they tax.
 
Bob Noel said:
Sure. Yessiree. There is a toll along the very short part of 95 in Southern NH. The rest of 95 isn't a toll road. I'm still wondering how NH can do stick a toll there, a freakin $2 toll...
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I-95 from the Maine border to Portland is toll. There it splits and the Turnpike (toll) goes north to Lewiston and then Gardiner. I-95 leaves the toll at Portland and stays coastal to Brunswick and then north to Gardiner where it rejoins the toll portion for a short stretch to Augusta. It is toll free from Augusta north.

The toll on 95 in NH is border to border, Mass to Maine.
 
Tom-D said:
2010 and the NYS thruway was the best highway we used.
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What thruway did you drive on?

I have loved in NYS for 30+ years and its FAR from the best interstate thruway.

You pretty much pay to go through endless speed traps.
 
Tom-D said:
2010 and the NYS thruway was the best highway we used.
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Well, I remember a trip I took to Boston a few years back. Coming into Massachusetts, IIRC, we took an hour to traverse two miles, literally. We were wondering what sort of a massive accident could possibly be causing this, only to find that it was all due to a TOLL BOOTH. That toll booth, which had me so angry that I was ready to get out of the car and demand that they pay me, in one day wasted an hour of tens of thousands of peoples time, burned lots of fuel, causing much pollution, and netted the state a few thousand dollars after having to pay toll attendants and the like.

When the fee collection mechanism is more onerous than it is worth, it needs to be scrapped or, as in the case with the aviation user fees, stopped before it ever begins.
 
BillTIZ said:
I-95 from the Maine border to Portland is toll. There it splits and the Turnpike (toll) goes north to Lewiston and then Gardiner. I-95 leaves the toll at Portland and stays coastal to Brunswick and then north to Gardiner where it rejoins the toll portion for a short stretch to Augusta. It is toll free from Augusta north.

The toll on 95 in NH is border to border, Mass to Maine.
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There are toll portions on I-95 through Maryland also. I thought the concept of FEDERAL interstate highways was that they were Federally funded through taxes to promote interstate travel, and commerce. :rolleyes:
 
BillTIZ said:
I-95 from the Maine border to Portland is toll. There it splits and the Turnpike (toll) goes north to Lewiston and then Gardiner. I-95 leaves the toll at Portland and stays coastal to Brunswick and then north to Gardiner where it rejoins the toll portion for a short stretch to Augusta. It is toll free from Augusta north.

The toll on 95 in NH is border to border, Mass to Maine.
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On 90 in Taxachusetts a $2 toll will let you travel 10 times as far as the $2 toll on 95 in NH. Somehow I doubt that the Taxachusetts Turnpike Authority (that hack-invested cesspool) is much more efficient than the NH folks.
 
Sounds like a lot more people will be buying traffic info systems for when they just blast off without talking to anyone to save money.

Of course, those traffic systems won't work because everyone will have their transponders turned off so they aren't detected. Hmm...

Hopefully it gets squashed as it has before.
 
Re: We thr People Petition - Re: Why We DON'T Need Aviation User Fees

mikea said:
The "We the People Petition" whatever that is, worked to get the White House to kill SOPA and PIPA.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012...ds-we-people-petitions-sopa-and-online-piracy
(Just when they were getting Jon Stewart on teh case. He wouldda moidered it.)

Let's organize the same to kill user fees.
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It won't work. That letter a bunch of us got was the White House reply for a "Kill User Fees" petition. That letter is what I think caused this thread and the other threads elsewhere.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why are people so bent out of shape over something that will not affect most of GA?
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Because its a slippery slope!

bartmc said:
.....

But I do suspect it will take at least $85 out of every $100 collected to just run "the program"
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Sadly I fear you are correct.

Jim Logajan said:
I'm still wondering how any such fees are going to be levied. .
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See above.

Jim Logajan said:
Does the FAA have any mechanisms in place to handle processing of any similar user fees and their collection? Will they need to spend a bunch of money to put those mechanisms in place and to run them?

.
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Why EZPass of course.:rolleyes:
 
Yeah the slippery slope is the problem, once they are allowed to charge 'fees' they will go up.. the exemptions will go away. And don't think for a second that fuel tax will be reduced or that they will spend the money smarter especially after they just keep getting enabled..

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As has been pointed out, user fees have a direct relationship to safety where gas taxes do not. After 10 years of knocking down user fees, we may finally lost the effort. It won't kill GA flying but it certainly may kill those who fly GA!
 
silver-eagle said:
As has been pointed out, user fees have a direct relationship to safety where gas taxes do not.
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Exactly how does user fees improve safety? By ramping the cost up so high that no one can afford to fly therefore since everyone is on the ground, they can't crash?

If anything, it will reduce the number of hours pilots fly thus more out of real world proficiency flying will be done. IOW, the higher the fees, the more likely pilots are to crash.

This is not making any sense at all.
 
The end game of user fees for pubic safety services goes like this:

Dispatcher: "911, what is your emergency?"

Caller: "There's a guy trying to break down the door of my house! Send the police, now!"

Dispatcher: "I'm sorry sir, I see from our records that your subscription to public safety services has expired. I'll need your credit card number please and consent for a $125 non-subscriber dispatch user fee. This will assure a 10 minute response time to your address of one patrol unit. For an additional $50 you may subscribe to 'platinum' service which guarantees a 3 minute response with two units or one SWAT unit."

Caller: "Never mind, I'll just introduce the guy to the business end of my Remington 370."
 
fgcason said:
Exactly how does user fees improve safety? By ramping the cost up so high that no one can afford to fly therefore since everyone is on the ground, they can't crash?

If anything, it will reduce the number of hours pilots fly thus more out of real world proficiency flying will be done. IOW, the higher the fees, the more likely pilots are to crash.

This is not making any sense at all.
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Also, forget about VFR pilots voluntarily using flight following which helps controllers aid safety and let IFR pilots know what VFR aircraft are around. You'll see less IFR filing on marginal days also with people just going. Flying in controlled airspace will become less also, but that is what the Feds want.

This is all part of a larger push to get GA out of the ATC system with us just being satisfied flying around the patch in an LSA. Forget using your GA plane as transportation if this trend continues.
 
DrMack said:
The end game of user fees for pubic safety services goes like this:

Dispatcher: "911, what is your emergency?"

Caller: "There's a guy trying to break down the door of my house! Send the police, now!"

Dispatcher: "I'm sorry sir, I see from our records that your subscription to public safety services has expired. I'll need your credit card number please and consent for a $125 non-subscriber dispatch user fee. This will assure a 10 minute response time to your address of one patrol unit. For an additional $50 you may subscribe to 'platinum' service which guarantees a 3 minute response with two units or one SWAT unit."

Caller: "Never mind, I'll just introduce the guy to the business end of my Remington 370."
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That should've been the first course of action anyway.

Where I live, the soonest it would be possible for a police officer to get here would be 10 minutes. That's plenty of time to get through the door, kill the whole family, steal what they want, and get out of there.
 
We have to remember that from a politicians point of view (both sides of the isle) GA means a G-V traveling LAX to BOS at 410 and not paying any user fees. They see it this way because that's what they've personally experienced. Those politicians that have chartered are used to paying $2500-$7500 a flight hour, so what's the big deal over a flat $100 fee for an operation that can clearly afford it?

What they don't see is operations like a King Air that travels back and forth between KADS (Dallas Addison) and KDTN (Shreveport Downtown), maybe 150 miles several times a day for a LA casino. Four trips or $800 per day X 30 days = ~$24K a month!!!! Say bye-bye to the jobs for these pilots, mechanics, etc.

This will cut the legs out from under many short range tight budget operations like the above.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Four trips or $800 per day X 30 days = ~$24K a month!!!! Say bye-bye to the jobs for these pilots, mechanics, etc.

This will cut the legs out from under many short range tight budget operations like the above.
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Absolutely, 100% correct.

It really ****es me off that the administration is too stupid to understand this. We know it has been pointed out to them by AOPA and others every time they bring up this ridiculous user fee.
 
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Anthony said:
Also, forget about VFR pilots voluntarily using flight following which helps controllers aid safety and let IFR pilots know what VFR aircraft are around. You'll see less IFR filing on marginal days also with people just going. Flying in controlled airspace will become less also, but that is what the Feds want.
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That's the money slide in this discussion. It raises the specter of many more mid-air collisions like the the tragedy in San Diego: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182
 
DrMack said:
That's the money slide in this discussion. It raises the specter of many more mid-air collisions like the the tragedy in San Diego: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182
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Two guys from the Navy organization I worked for at the time got off that PSA jet at its last stop. A good friend was scheduled to take it to San Diego that day, but cancelled because he wasn't feeling well. That one hit too close for comfort.
 
Alexb2000 said:
We have to remember that from a politicians point of view (both sides of the isle) GA means a G-V traveling LAX to BOS at 410 and not paying any user fees. They see it this way because that's what they've personally experienced. Those politicians that have chartered are used to paying $2500-$7500 a flight hour, so what's the big deal over a flat $100 fee for an operation that can clearly afford it?

What they don't see is operations like a King Air that travels back and forth between KADS (Dallas Addison) and KDTN (Shreveport Downtown), maybe 150 miles several times a day for a LA casino. Four trips or $800 per day X 30 days = ~$24K a month!!!! Say bye-bye to the jobs for these pilots, mechanics, etc.

This will cut the legs out from under many short range tight budget operations like the above.
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We will agree to disagree. That same business gets to write off the tax on its income and it gets to pass the tax off on its customers. What would be best to write into the law is that any aircraft that is carrying passengers for higher should pay the user fee.
 
Also, a whole whopping 9,000 people signed the petition... Their are over 600,000 pilots out there... So obviously we as a group don't really care about the issue either....
 
jmp470 said:
Also, a whole whopping 9,000 people signed the petition... Their are over 600,000 pilots out there... So obviously we as a group don't really care about the issue either....
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Well, maybe some pilots didn't want to deal with more SPAM/UCE by being required to provide an email address.
 
jmp470 said:
Also, a whole whopping 9,000 people signed the petition... Their are over 600,000 pilots out there... So obviously we as a group don't really care about the issue either....
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Backup and let's not compare apples to oranges. There are 600K FAA certificates. Of those, how many are primarily GA pilots? Yes, there are commercial & airline pilots that also fly GA, but let's use a more factual number. For this I use the numbers from the FAA's website

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2010/

Private (airplane only) 202 K
Commercial (airplane only) 99.4K
ATP (airplane only) 137.7K

9000 of 202,000 is 4.5% of the active population. When you consider that a USPS mail campaign is considered hugely successful if 2-3% people respond, this isn't bad.

So now let's look at the 202,000 GA pilots that are "active" (current medicals) how many are really flying on a consistent basis? And how many are consistently online? Boards like this skew the numbers because we are technically savvy. I know for a fact in both my EAA chapter and Colorado Pilots that a large percentage don't want and refuse to have anything to do with computers if they can help it (but they love that GPS!). Which makes it difficult to get the word out to everyone other than memberships in organizations with print material.

I know that at Colorado Pilots we pushed this in the monthly newsletter and on our Facebook page. No idea how many people responded, tho.
 
I know people in the FAA database that haven't so much as sat in a plane since 1968, some are probably dead too.
 
murphey said:
9000 of 202,000 is 4.5% of the active population. When you consider that a USPS mail campaign is considered hugely successful if 2-3% people respond, this isn't bad.
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And 9000 is (in my very rough math) about 0.005% of the adult US population. And probably about 0.1% of the number of Americans who fly the airlines at least once per year.

You do know it is about the airlines, right?
 
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