Why? W&B

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by CharlieD3, Sep 16, 2020 at 11:56 AM.

  1. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Okay, so, in my opinion when one is looking to purchase an aircraft, some things are important.

    Price of course, but VALUE is determined by all the other facts, some of which are obvious in photos.

    TTAF helps determine value, TSOH as well, but how many hours annually since the OH?

    Avionics are necessary, IFR? VFR?... how new or ancient? Value again.

    But... Probably for 90% + of aircraft that one might look at that would have any VALUE to a person who did not just want to bore holes in the sky and do pattern work, alone...

    I'd argue the most necessary specification for determining the PRACTICAL USEFULNESS of an aircraft would be W&B.

    This would apply to most everything from a 172 to a BO.

    What useful good is a plane that won't take you and the S.O., luggage, and maybe the family pet; more than 50 miles away without a fuel stop?

    Why, if you have decided to sell your aircraft and are paying to list it on line, would you not pre-qualify potential purchasers by providing a W&B and, maybe even a PAYLOAD number?

    If you're selling an old short body BO, or a Mooney, or a 172, heck... Anything with more than 2 seats... And someone is looking to buy a 3 or 4 or 6 or 7 seat aircraft must have a desire to either fill the majority of the seats with cheeks, or take the seats out and haul bales of... Well, whatever.

    Keep me from calling, emailing, or otherwise bothering you for something I can't use and won't be interested in because it won't fit my mission, but 3 or 4 others in the same category would.

    Save my time and yours... Post your W&B, or at least a payload with full fuel.

    Charlie

    Feeling curmudgeonly today.
     
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  2. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  3. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Yahbut... I want it.< Seems to work for younger generations...
     
  4. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’d say if one has done their homework on the aircraft of interest, they’d already know that information. I’ve got the Aviation Consumer used aircraft guide. When I bought my AA5, I already knew what to expect. The sellers numbers won’t be a significant difference from that. At least not to go from a 3 place to 4 place difference. A homebuilt might be significant if they modified or screwed up the build but certified should be pretty darn close.
     
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  5. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Over the years there can be significant changes from “Stock”. I’ve flown C-172s with the same gross weight with nearly 200lbs difference in useful load.
     
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  6. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well it’s a given, it’s gonna be more heavy than published. That information is a phone call away though. It’s no big deal if it’s left off the advert.
     
  7. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Not so much... I've done the research. And yes 100 lbs can make a difference, and I've called in some over 300# different than published numbers...

    And those have been Av. Consumer numbers, too.
     
  8. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Most commonly yes. Though I have seen one where the original set up was deluxe IFR platform from the 70s and it had been upgraded to all glass no vacuum and new auto pilot. Lost a hundred or so pounds (IIRC).
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If I were a seller, I’d only advertise a useful load if I thought it was on the high side of the range.

    most buyers don’t seem to consider W&B until after purchase, if at all.
     
  10. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    I suppose... I mean, there are people who buy cars based on the weekly payments (the new LCD method of selling by dealers).
     
  11. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    To me it’s like damage history. If it’s left off the advert, I don’t care. I’ll find out one way or another. May or may not be a deal breaker but it’ll be covered under the list of questions I’ll have for the seller.
     
  12. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Like @Velocity173 mentioned, most buyers interested in a certain model aircraft will have a general idea of what that specific airplane can haul and the performance that it’s capable of. I’d also wager that most buyers who have a little bit of experience in aviation, understand that you can’t have your cake and eat it too, in the sense that you can’t have all the bells and whistles you desire and still expect to have a very high useful load, so I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal breaker to most.
     
  13. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Most, it seems, with NDH will so state. It shows VALUE up front.

    A higher useful or pay load stated, and some do... Also demonstrates utility, usefulness... VALUE.

    It's perhaps just a personal peeve, but I'd like to see it more often.
     
  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, no doubt it’s something you want to know before buying. Another thing to take into consideration is how long ago was the aircraft weighed? They might be advertising a light aircraft but the W&B might not have been updated in decades.
     
  15. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    My WHY? is why post an ad and then "Call for Price".
     
  16. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I was looking to buy a plane, I never found a seller that was reluctant to share useful load numbers. Anyway, the planes that one shops for already suggests their useful load expectations. I defined my "mission", then started shopping planes that accomplished that, knowing full well that it was not going to be the family truckster. My "mission" is likely different than your "mission". The RV-9A I bought has space for about 70 lbs of baggage with a passenger and full fuel, more if I encroach the top of the graph a little aggressively, and even more than that if I fuel the plane according to my wife's tolerance and our respective bladder capacities. I don't need more than that, and don't want it if it means the plane flies like a 172. Useful load for me is a relatively low-level concern. The way the airplane flies and handles is way more important to me than being able to carry 3 "robust" friends and their bowling balls. Sports car vs Vista-Cruiser. Both have their fan base, and neither is more valid than the other IMHO. On the very rare occasions where I need a station wagon, I'll borrow or rent one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 2:04 PM
  17. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Mooney can really vary because they optionally come with AC and FIKI, which is 100lbs alone. I was able to improve my UL by 75lbs by upgrading my panel, those legacy avionics are heavy.
     
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  18. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Yes, but the difference between a Miata and a Vista Cruiser are a bit extreme.. again.. ride around on fair weather days, or take the whole fam damily to yellowstone? The compromises that are a given in aviation narrow the spread considerably. But still, a 177 with 1000 useful is more USEFUL than one with 843, no?

    Owners will share W&B but you have to call, email, whatever... And then wait.... "It's in the plane, and I haven't been to the airport in a week... and I'm covered up right now...

    Fine, and then another buyer, that doesn't care about W&B gets more plane than he needs, you know, 'cause the payments are right...
     
  19. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    This is a big pet peeve of mine

    So many airplanes out there have pathetic useful loads. I get it if the plane has two seats or is an older Mooney that realistically can only *fit* two people.. but when you see a SIX (6), VI, seat Saratoga for sale and later find out that the useful load is something pathetic like 1,180 that plane quickly loses interest

    I get there are many people who fly for fun, or who's wives won't fly with them.. fine, but when you are selling a 4-6 person cross country airplane with some miniscule W&B you really should put that upfront. Would save the seller some time too getting more qualified leads
     
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  20. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    I guess I feel about those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." Not necessarily true... And sometimes, you can see the same plane, with a price on the broker's website, or one of the other "big three" sites.

    But, I agree.. I don't like it either.
     
  21. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    ^^^^^^
    PERZACKLY!
     
  22. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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  23. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    As do planephd and TAP in performance specifications banner in each ad... Or, look or up in wikipedia..

    But, I've seen the same model aircraft vary by 200#-+.... Same year etc.

    Now, some of the actual weight differences can be explained by someone who actually weighed their plane, rather than a "computed" W&B.
     
  24. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    So what you *really* want is only planes listed that have had the plane weighed within 30 seconds of posting the ad.
     
  25. Will Kumley

    Will Kumley Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I also get entertained when I find the one that says item xyz (usually a fancy navcom) removed. Um, if it's not there why is it mentioned in the ad when the pictures clearly have a hole in its spot. If the seller plans to reinstall it, why not reinstall it and then take photos and post the ad. But I agree with WDD, call for price is the worst. Already don't want to talk to the seller at that point.
     
  26. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    And that's exactly how I got the Comanche for 30% under market. Called, offered, accepted, inspected, flew it home. Oh yeah, and the first annual a year later was under $2k.

    Y'all can keep ignoring the "call for price ads" and I'll take a great deal deal when I do call.

    Of course, I also like talking to, and am not scared to talk to, people.
     
  27. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I gotta see TAS listed...because that’s always accurate. :D
     
  28. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Nope... A W&B, even a few years old, or decades for that matter (as long as no significant changes to AC) would be fine...

    Actually weighed (recently) would be a bonus. An aged W&B is considered in the airworthiness to be valid. While not accurate, due to the carcasses of a gazillion dust mite corpses, sand from that beach trip or burning man trod into the carpet, etc. still gives one a basis for comparison...
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Unless of course there's a math mistake found in the W&B sheet that kept getting carried over and over even without major changes. Yep, found that, gained 50#.
     
  30. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    I prefer MPG and GS...
     
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  31. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Bonus! You could have lost it.
     
  32. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    New twist I hadn’t thought of. I assumed the price was so outrageous the seller didn’t list it as he would try to hook you in while talking to you. Maybe you can get a deal with call for price.
     
  33. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    That's part of why I offered a crazy low price. If he wanted 30% over it was going to be a VERY short conversation. It was also through a broker, so I pretty much broke all the PoA rules of purchasing with that phone call. :D
     
  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    I love when there is an Archer or 180 horse 172 conversion listed "135 knots TAS, has all the speed mods, the fastest [insert Archer/Skyhawk] out there!"
     
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  35. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not if 700 lbs is all you will ever need. For many pilots, 1000 lbs of "USEFULNESS" is pointless and likely contrary to the "mission".
     
  36. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

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    Complete thread high jack. Didn’t realize how nice the speed and payload of a Comanche is. Similar to a 182 but at seems to be a lot less $
     
  37. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    That's because guys like @hindsight2020 keep crapping on them in forums and drives the price down. I think he just really wants one, and that's his M.O. :D
     
  38. MajorTurbulence

    MajorTurbulence Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well....., mine was faster until I had the tach checked.
     
  39. MajorTurbulence

    MajorTurbulence Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’m not sure the W&B is that important to post. If you’ve done your homework, you know. But the important thing for me is what flexibility the W&B allows for. I get that if you’re flying at gross all the time, you want to know whether the plane can accommodate your seats and baggage. But that may be accomplished by filling fuel up to the tabs and accepting a slightly shorter range flight.
     
  40. CharlieD3

    CharlieD3 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah... Until you really want what you don't have....[​IMG]