Why, there oughta be a law!

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
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I will refrain from further interfering with the very good thread regarding the violation of a pilot for failing to log a GPS database update by starting this thread on the topic of "What about all these irritating and completely unnecessary laws?"

"The current edition of the (Federal) code was published in 2006, and according to the US Government Printing Office, it's over 200,000 pages long."

(That is Federal only. The state and local laws might be even more numerous.)

Anyone know how many new laws we 'get' each year? I could not find an answer - I think that is because it is so unwieldly, no one can physically count it.

What is the inside the minds of those who seek to multiply our laws, rules, regulations astoundingly so? Is it the goal of these lawmakers to prevent every future wrong, or to somehow make the perfect society? Is there some perverse enjoyment at the thought of this imagined, completely-orderly world?
(Sometimes I wonder if we erroneously gave lawmakers too many resources in the past, and now they cannot be stopped in their quest to assert 'perfect control' over us with more laws each year.)

And more importantly; why do most of us happily accept this situation......indeed many seem to enjoy the intellectual exercise of studying what has been foist upon us? Frankly, the new laws drive me nuts....although I make the effort to comply like everyone else.

Eventually they will make so many laws that they cannot be enforced. (some say we are there already)

America Mired in Morass of Laws and Regulations


When it comes to aviation, there is no limit to imaginative new laws, all in the interest of Zero Accidents. Play that safety card, and the voices wanting to discuss the downsides to a new law are soon stifled. No one is saying safety is unimportant, but we are heading to the point where Zero Aviation is the current means to Zero Accidents.





"The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government."
 
Every year the San Diego Union Tribune newspaper publishes the number of new laws going into effect that pertain to Californians. It is usually around 1000. I've seen it close to 1,300 one year.

I have a hunch that if every U.S. citizen were to be issued one copy of all U.S. laws and regulations, in Bible print, it would require logging every tree on the planet, and would still fall short of being able to deliver to all of us. Each set would probably fill an 18 wheeler. We probably would not have the fuel available to delver them all.

Would we even have enough plastic to ship them on DVDs? Would it even be possible to compile all of them into readable volumes before they have doubled?

When they say we are a nation of law, they are not kidding......not a bit.

Considering all those laws and regulations, are we really a free people?

John
 
Maybe the laws are now so extensive that absolutely everyone everywhere is in violation of something. Thus instead of putting people in prison for breaking the laws it is far more practical to redefine the entire world as the prison. Imagine the logistical nightmare of imprisoning 6-10 billion people..including the police officers and judges who are doing the arresting/sentencing.

Sorry. It's really difficult to take this seriously. I mean how is it even remotely possible for the average person to know what the entire list of laws are at any given moment? It's not possible. Besides, you'd probably get ticketed for driving around a severely oversized overloaded semi-truck carrying the legal library that you need to insure that you don't violate anything. There comes a point where society and life has to come to a complete stop in order to follow the rules. It's silly in the extreme.

I bet you could do away with the entire pile of laws with 4 words straight from the kindergarten playground: Play fair, be nice.
 
The bad part of allowing so many laws to continue accumulating is that sooner or later, most reasonably minded people will simply ignore them. Their magnitude is going to be their undoing. It is much like allowing a government to grow to gargantuan proportions, eventually it will collapse under it's own weight. Two things that are doing more harm than good, by putting our country at risk.

John
 
How many of those 200,000 laws have been deemed Unconstitutional or unenforceable by a Judge but weren't removed from the books?

Passing a law that eradicates any such law within a set period of time would be good.

Go a step further, eradicate any law that there's been no effort by anyone to enforce in X amount of time too.

So called "sunset" clauses.

Some examples...

It's illegal to bring your horse or pack mule above the first floor in any building in Cripple Creek, CO.

(Llamas, bison, elephants, giraffes or any other creatures are apparently ok. Apparently miners would take mules and horses up to their upper floor rooms trying to keep them from being stolen.)

But, it's illegal to graze your llama on your grass in Boulder, CO.

(So don't take the llama there. Cows? Apparently they're cool. I'm amazed the llama lobby lets this one stand.)

It's illegal to lend your vacuum cleaner to your neighbor in Denver, CO. Mops are fine.

(Had to be related to some kind of public health problem in the early days of vacuums. That or the vacuum cleaner lobby seriously kicked butt in this town!)

It's also illegal to drive a black car in Denver on Sundays.

(I'm guessing folks were acting like they were in funeral processions to avoid traffic?)

And of course there's our "blue laws" regarding Sundays... holy days...

It's illegal for a dealer to show a car for sale on Sunday. (Still enforced. You can't buy a car at a car dealership on Sundays in Colorado. God might smite thee down for coveting a new set of wheels over going to church.)

And it's illegal to wear a holstered six-shooter in Colorado Springs, CO on Sunday, election day, or holidays.

(Apparently semi-automatics and carrying long guns in pickup truck gun racks, is fine. Wearing a six-shooter in a holster in a brand-new pickup truck on Sunday would make you a two-time offender and extra dangerous to society. If you drove through Denver on the way to Colorado Springs and your brand new pickup truck is black, you are a three-time offender and you're getting the book thrown at you. I'm assuming this book is a law book, and so far, none of the Judges can throw it far enough to reach the Defendant. It's too big.)

Speaking of throwing heavy objects... It's illegal to launch a catapult at any building in Aspen, CO.

(Good to know of you're trying to get your law books or a llama up to the second floor of the ski lodge.)

And speaking of skiing, it's illegal to crash into objects on a ski slope in Vail, CO.

(Thus, the overcrowding problem at the SuperMax facility in Cañon City, CO. Tourists crash into things while skiing, we lock 'em up and keep Pueblo, CO residents in good paid government jobs.)

Vail also has another skiing related law. It's illegal to keep junk next to someone else.

(This helps motivate people who wipe out spectacularly on the slopes in what's euphemistically known as a "Yard Sale" from dawdling too long collecting their skis, poles, gloves, hat, and toupees as not to leave them near someone else in the snow for too long.)

Pueblo, CO takes keeping that nearby prison full so seriously, that it's illegal to allow a dandelion to grow anywhere within the city limits.

(You can grow them anywhere else, though. As long as its the County's problem.)

If you're having trouble reading this, establishments in Arvada, CO that sell alcohol must provide enough lighting to read text.

(But not enough that you'll realize how ugly the member of the opposite sex is, that you've convinced yourself to hit on with your Whiskey goggles on.)

;) ;) ;)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
One article I read said that some judges are recognizing that it is an excuse in some situations....simply because the laws are so onerous.
Click to expand...

They should, you can't be prosecuted unless they can show that you willfully violated the law. If you didn't know about the law, and the judge feels it was not reasonable for you to know about the law, you're off the hook
 
dell30rb said:
They should, you can't be prosecuted unless they can show that you willfully violated the law. If you didn't know about the law, and the judge feels it was not reasonable for you to know about the law, you're off the hook
Click to expand...

I urge caution on believing that.

Have you ever heard the term "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

David or Adam are probably better placed to cite criminal law, but there is clear and well established precedent in administrative law that holds that "willful" means "not taking adequate steps to know about the law and avoid violation". Within several Federal agencies, that's been the case for 20+ years.

The company I work for just instituted very stiff policies (some might say "draconian") because the new UK anti-bribery statute includes a clause that essentially says that the only real defense for a company charged with violations incurred by it's employees is to show that the company has adopted strong measures to prevent it's employees from violating the law. Notwithstanding that the company I work for is a US company, since we have a fairly large presence in the UK the UK law applies to us worldwide (on top of the US FCPA and other laws). I can't even arrange lunch for a group meeting that has employees of one of our customers present (there is, apparently, no "de minimus" exception). So at least some lawyers believe that the "Ignorance is no excuse" ideal applies to at least some criminal laws.
 
fgcason said:
Maybe the laws are now so extensive that absolutely everyone everywhere is in violation of something. Thus instead of putting people in prison for breaking the laws it is far more practical to redefine the entire world as the prison. Imagine the logistical nightmare of imprisoning 6-10 billion people..including the police officers and judges who are doing the arresting/sentencing.

Sorry. It's really difficult to take this seriously. I mean how is it even remotely possible for the average person to know what the entire list of laws are at any given moment? It's not possible. Besides, you'd probably get ticketed for driving around a severely oversized overloaded semi-truck carrying the legal library that you need to insure that you don't violate anything. There comes a point where society and life has to come to a complete stop in order to follow the rules. It's silly in the extreme.

I bet you could do away with the entire pile of laws with 4 words straight from the kindergarten playground: Play fair, be nice.
Click to expand...

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556
The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have exploded in number but also become impossibly broad and vague. In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how federal criminal laws have become dangerously disconnected from the English common law tradition and how prosecutors can pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behavior. The volume of federal crimes in recent decades has increased well beyond the statute books and into the morass of the Code of Federal Regulations, handing federal prosecutors an additional trove of vague and exceedingly complex and technical prohibitions to stick on their hapless targets. The dangers spelled out in Three Felonies a Day do not apply solely to “white collar criminals,” state and local politicians, and professionals. No social class or profession is safe from this troubling form of social control by the executive branch, and nothing less than the integrity of our constitutional democracy hangs in the balance.
Click to expand...
 
Value freedom? Think we live in the "most free" country in the world?
Here is an interesting story on that.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Value freedom? Think we live in the "most free" country in the world?
Here is an interesting story on that.
Click to expand...

We read such articles and start thinking how can this be? It is because we allowed it to be, plain and simple. We do have one freedom that many countries do not have, we have the vote.

We are one of the few countries in the world that does not require arms in order to replace those who govern us, we can simply vote em out of office. No blood, no muss, no fuss.

If you think our country is being poorly managed, never vote incumbent, any incumbent. Let them know you are not happy in the voting booth.

By voting for an incumbent, you are approving the way they are managing our affairs.

If you are happy with how you are being governed, vote for them, keep em in office. It is your stamp of approval of our government.

It was our, and our parents vote, that gave us what we have for a government. It is us, not them.

John
 
John Baker, your are absolutely correct. The problem is, no one pays much attention to what a legislators do, and little to what they say. I think they mostly vote for the most recoganizable name.
Of course, then there's the think about voting yourself money - that's good for another thread.
 
bsdunek said:
John Baker, your are absolutely correct. The problem is, no one pays much attention to what a legislators do, and little to what they say. I think they mostly vote for the most recoganizable name.
Of course, then there's the think about voting yourself money - that's good for another thread.
Click to expand...


They, our politicians, and our two parties, keep us divided, bamboozled, and confused. They offer us Bozo the clown to run against their incumbent, so we vote for their incumbent.

It is becoming the time of Bozo, we can just kick him out in four years. If Bozo is too extreme, we can impeach him anytime.

Compared to many, we are indeed a free country. Look what those poor people in the middle east are having to endure to change their governments. All we have to do is drive to the polling booth.

What can be better than that?

John
 
John Baker said:
They, our politicians, and our two parties, keep us divided, bamboozled, and confused. They offer us Bozo the clown to run against their incumbent, so we vote for their incumbent.

It is becoming the time of Bozo, we can just kick him out in four years. If Bozo is too extreme, we can impeach him anytime.

Compared to many, we are indeed a free country. Look what those poor people in the middle east are having to endure to change their governments. All we have to do is drive to the polling booth.

What can be better than that?

John
Click to expand...

Yeah the republicans and democrats are the same party. They use polarizing but unimportant issues to stay in power by making their half of the followers fear the other half. Its all just a big show though they are all in bed with each other. And as for the large amount of laws.. its all about control. If everything is illegal than no matter what you do they can punish you for something. They can put away whoever threatens them.

<---<^>--->
 
Read with your best Johnny Carson voice -

The answer is - The Steelers, the Raiders and the Bills.







The question -

What do Americans hate most about Congress?
 
You can vote for the person who'll lie to you about their motivations about why they want the job, while they get paid in perks, benefits, and even cash, handsomely out of your pocket...

Or you can vote for their competitor doing the same thing.

We all paid the members of the so-called SuperCommittee $174,000 each this year, plus expenses and lifetime benefits, to not get their jobs done.

Firing them by voting for the other person in their district just swaps one ineffective loser pool for another. Same outcome.

The definition of insanity...
 
dell30rb said:
They should, you can't be prosecuted unless they can show that you willfully violated the law. If you didn't know about the law, and the judge feels it was not reasonable for you to know about the law, you're off the hook
Click to expand...

Read the FCC's Daily Digest every day. Read their notices when they bust someone for violating their regulations. They consider you to have willfully violating their regulations by simply committing the act. Doesn't matter if you knew it was against their regulations or not. You did it and it was against the regulations - you willfully violated the regulation. Most commonly seen when they nail an unlicensed radio station, typically in the FM band.
 
Is it too late to remind readers that the vast majority of laws in the US Code are there not to function as brackets to citizens' behavior but rather to specifically authorize the various machinations of Executive Branch agencies? Same with regulations?

Doesn't make for such a cool sound bite though.
 
denverpilot said:
How many of those 200,000 laws have been deemed Unconstitutional or unenforceable by a Judge but weren't removed from the books?

Passing a law that eradicates any such law within a set period of time would be good.

Go a step further, eradicate any law that there's been no effort by anyone to enforce in X amount of time too.

So called "sunset" clauses.

Some examples...

It's illegal to bring your horse or pack mule above the first floor in any building in Cripple Creek, CO.

(Llamas, bison, elephants, giraffes or any other creatures are apparently ok. Apparently miners would take mules and horses up to their upper floor rooms trying to keep them from being stolen.)

.....


;) ;) ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks man, that was a good read and laugh. And you're right on point. It's gotten completely out of hand.
 
Here it is. Ayn Rand put her finger on it a long time ago.
"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against—then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it.

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be enforced nor objectively interpreted—and you create a nation of law-breakers—and then you cash in on guilt.

Now that's the system, Mr Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
Click to expand...

One of the grounds of the Declaration of Independence was:
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
Click to expand...
 
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