Why the GPS hate?

[MickYoumans]

So often in threads people make negative comments about GPS and belittle those of us that follow the 'magenta line'. I'm trying to understand why this is since I simply don't understand it. I started flying in 1982, back when there was no GPS and the common form of navigation was VOR's. Even though I have the ability to fly using a compass and sectional or by flying VOR radials, it is certainly less accurate and more of a pain than following my GPS. With avgas costing over $5 a gallon I appreciate being able to fly straight courses with tenths of a mile accuracy to save gas. I use WingX and I love being able to do all of my flight planning and have all of my 'paper' in such a little package. I remember the days of lugging a brief case around and the space it took up in the plane, not to mention trying to keep everything in there up to date. When I fly to a new airport, I can use the simulator in WingX to run through the flight and using the terrain and synthetic vision capabilities of WingX have a very good feel for my upcoming flight. With the new ADS-B/AHRS receivers you can also have inflight weather and backup AI information as well. I could go on about all the things I love about using GPS but the point of this thread is trying to understand why so many bash it. It would be like making fun of an engineer for using a calculator instead of a slide rule. I simply don't get it. So, what are your thoughts on the subject? I am thinking more from the VFR perspective, not IFR. I would think most IFR pilots do fly or would prefer to fly a GPS approach.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Oh gawd, here we go again....but if this helps kill the tail wheel thread, I'm all for it!

 

[tmyers]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS. That just goes against nature.

This was an inevitable comment you know!!!

 

[MickYoumans]

Oh gawd, here we go again....but if this helps kill the tail wheel thread, I'm all for it!

I figured it might get the 'here we go again' response, but nobody is forced to participate. I suspect it might be a vocal minority that is always quick to bash GPS. I figured with the poll it might be easier to see where peoples thoughts really are.

 

[poadeleted21]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS. That just goes against nature.

This was an inevitable comment you know!!!

The new WACOs probably make your head explode.

 

[Brad Z]

Grumpy old men like to beat their chests in superiority for having done it the hard way. Fact is, if GPS had come along 30 years earlier they too would be "children of the magenta (well, maybe black and white) line". I hate that phrase, btw.

 

[poadeleted20]

I wouldn't say I hate GPS, but I do require than anyone I train be able to get where they want to go if GPS becomes unavailable, due to either onboard equipment failure, satellite outages, military jamming games, flying too close to some TV transmission towers, or Abdul bin Terrorist figuring out how to jam GPS. I'm not turning loose in the skies someone who cannot safely get from Point A to Point B without a fully operational GPS. And that's no different than how I trained Private Pilots in the pre-GPS days regarding VOR use -- if you can't get there with nothing but a map and compass, you don't get signed off for the PP practical test. Likewise, for IFR today, if you can't get the plane on the ground safely with nothing but one VOR, you don't get endorsed for the IR practical test.

 

[tmyers]

The new WACOs probably make your head explode.

Not really, but then I am not a tailwheel purist.

There is a guy in the area that occasionally ferrys new Waco's and refurbished Wacos to their new owners, so I have seen a couple. They look very nice.

 

[Neal Howard]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS.

In Vans RV taildraggerland, GPS flies YOU! (GPS coupled to autopilot)

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

makes things too easy

 

[tmyers]

Oh the humanity of it all. "As God is my witness, I thought Turkeys could fly."

 

[Fearless Tower]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS. That just goes against nature.

This was an inevitable comment you know!!!

What's funny is that the B-25 in my avatar actually has an Aspen PFD in the panel. Just doesn't seem right. Thankfully it was OOC when I did my SIC type!

 

[DeeG]

Used properly, its a great tool. It just scares the crap out of me when I'm in the right seat and the PIC is so busy fussing with the thing that he forgets to look out the window. And we are merrily drifting off course into the busy class B airspace.

I don't often curse and scream and yank the controls away from someone who is flying, but that day I felt somewhat compelled to.

 

[Skyscraper]

Grumpy old men like to beat their chests in superiority for having done it the hard way. Fact is, if GPS had come along 30 years earlier they too would be "children of the magenta (well, maybe black and white) line". I hate that phrase, btw.

This...

 

[ClimbnSink]

Two things, TV obsession as mentioned by Dee. Ever try to get kids attention when they are glued to cartoons? Yeah that's what we have flying around. Second try another poll, ask how many won't fly without an onboard GPS in anything(Wacos included.) Also scary. It isn't GPS use, it is overuse and fear/incompetence without it.

 

[ScottM]

So often in threads people make negative comments about GPS and belittle those of us that follow the 'magenta line'. .

Just FYI it is the Magenta Line of Death MLOD!

 

[John Baker]

It's a tool, just like that old kerosene filled thing with the numbers on it that sits on top of your panel. Use your old tools along with your fancy electronic gizmos so the you are not screwed should one or the other fail. Besides, doing that keeps you from becoming bored out of your skull on long trips, more stuff to fiddle with.

-John

 

[Bill]

makes things too easy

Well, why you flying then? Walk.

 

[poadeleted21]

Grumpy old men like to beat their chests in superiority for having done it the hard way. Fact is, if GPS had come along 30 years earlier they too would be "children of the magenta (well, maybe black and white) line". I hate that phrase, btw.

Not isolated to grumpy old men, there's a starry eyed PPL hopeful sitting at a kitchen table with a slide rule somewhere in America right now.

I managed a degree in Mathematics without touching a slide rule.

 

[Henning]

I don't hate GPS, best fuel saving tool outside the red handle. I still have a box of charts in the back seat though since one never knows when things will fail. There's a few things beyond human control that while rare, can take down the system, so it's wise to be prepared for such an event. As a norm though, it is my primary nav source.

 

[Herman vanOoijen]

Last year, when I was near a scanner at 6B4, I heard somebody in a Cherokee call several times on 122.8 stating that the GPS had given the ghost and he had absolutely no idea where he was. Judging by his voice, he was in somewhat of a panic. Had left my handheld TX at home so, I did the next best thing and called KRME tower to let them know there was somebody floating around, who needed help. The scanner antenna was mounted high on the building and regularly received 122.8 traffic from 100mi away... He did not make the evening news so things must have turned out alright.

 

[Everskyward]

I love GPS (actually it's an FMS). It make my job a lot easier.

But I will say that it's strange to me when I hear of people who have a panel mounted GPS but don't feel confident about going flying unless they also have a handheld backup or two or three somewhere in the airplane.

But I am one of the old farts who learned when GPS was not even a twinkle in the eye of GA pilots.

 

[MBDiagMan]

You simply cannot fly a tail wheel aircraft with a GPS. That just goes against nature.

This was an inevitable comment you know!!!

Whoa! NOW you tell me.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I figured it might get the 'here we go again' response, but nobody is forced to participate. I suspect it might be a vocal minority that is always quick to bash GPS. I figured with the poll it might be easier to see where peoples thoughts really are.

You mean like the same as the tailwheel thread not forcing anyone to participate?

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's a tool, just like that old kerosene filled thing with the numbers on it that sits on top of your panel. Use your old tools along with your fancy electronic gizmos so the you are not screwed should one or the other fail. Besides, doing that keeps you from becoming bored out of your skull on long trips, more stuff to fiddle with.



-John

Exactly. Use all the tools available.

Reminds me of when I was a deck officer in the merchant marine. I used to pull out the sextant and do celestial navigation on almost every watch just to keep me from getting bored out of my mind.

 

[Bill]

I used to pull out the sextant and do celestial navigation

I used to know how to do that a long time ago.

 

[tmyers]

Well this has at least been entertaining and good hearted. How is the poll going?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I don't hate GPS. I have one - here it is in the car (monochrome line of death):

I hate spending money.

I hate ADS-B.

 

[MyassisDragon]

Not isolated to grumpy old men, there's a starry eyed PPL hopeful sitting at a kitchen table with a slide rule somewhere in America right now.

I managed a degree in Mathematics without touching a slide rule.

Bet you will regret not learning a slide rule when the battery goes dead in the old hp33c...

I will actually admit, I found my dads old state of the art circular slide rule and spent an evening going through the instructions and learning to use it, kept me from having to watch some prime time tv thing the wife unit was indulging in.

Regarding GPS nature of this thread, if you have it then USE it. but be prepared, trained and educated to use all the tools at your disposal so when Murphy takes one or two or three away you still have tools to keep navigating.
Do this until your navigation tools are down to the iron tack holding your last pair of wingtips together, stuck in the floating cork you plopped in the glass of wine your wife just poured to calm her nerves while she stares mesmerized at the flickering screen where the purple line once pointed out the direction to utopia.

 

[CT4ME]

As significant as GPSs are in "some" of our lives, we have to remember that the technology is a relatively new tool. Some people don't do "new" very well.
It seems like I've been using a GPS of one sort or another forever. It's shocking to remember the first handheld units appeared 1991, and the 430 was released in '98. Most people didn't even know they existed until 2000, when the "Selective Availability" feature was turned off for the public. So, realistically, they've only been an accepted tool for just over a decade. Arguably, the GPS is the most significant advance in aviation in 50+ years. But, like I said... some folks just don't do "new"...

 

[Sac Arrow]

//begin flash forward

POLL OPTION FOR 2035:

1. Hover flight autodirect yes?

2. Hover flight autodirect no?

Back in my day, when I learned to fly, we had to do it the old fashion way. We used a crude moving map GPS and plotted our course using the magenta line. We actually had to program our autopilots, and in some cases, we actually had to manually fly the airplane sometimes and even land it by hand. I think this new stuff is a crutch that kids use too much these days.

I won't let my students hit the autoflight button and sit back and watch the ride. No siree, they are going to dial in their route the old fashioned way, using the knobs of the GPS. And they are actually going to manually switch their autopilot on and off. If they can't hold a magenta line, they aren't ready for their practical test.

Yeah, back in the days when the airlines still required pilots on board, those were the golden years of aviation.

//end flash forward

 

[Fearless Tower]

Most people didn't even know they existed until 2000, when the "Selective Availability" feature was turned off for the public. So, realistically, they've only been an accepted tool for just over a decade.

The selective availability was really only an issue for approach level accuracy. Still plenty accurate for enroute Nav. The maritime world was well into GPS use in the early 90s.

 

[eman1200]

.....Regarding GPS nature of this thread, if you have it then USE it. but be prepared, trained and educated to use all the tools at your disposal so when Murphy takes one or two or three away you still have tools to keep navigating......

sums it up pretty good. /thread.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

I didn't reply to the poll because none of the options reflect my opinions about GPS. Personally I think it's a great navigation tool, I use my KLN94 (VFR) on every flight as a nav-aid and plan to upgrade to a GNS430W (IFR) as soon as finances allow. OTOH, I'm a bit troubled that we seem to putting all our eggs in the GPS basket when the technology is dependent of such weak signals that can be rendered unusable by so many different but highly plausable scenarios. The technology is nice as long as it works but I fear we may be producing a generation of pilots that couldn't find their way to the FBO mens room if their GPSs crapped out.
So to me GPS is just another tool in the toolbox.

 

[Henning]

The selective availability was really only an issue for approach level accuracy. Still plenty accurate for enroute Nav. The maritime world was well into GPS use in the early 90s.

Lol, yep, I used the first commercial/civilian unit Furuno sold on a 1927 Geary named Westward, first one I had seen. We had a brand new full Furuno bridge including a 128 mile radar and LORAN C. As we were heading up the coast I was doing my typical radar nav backing it with LORAN and plotting the GPS as well. The GPS had us all over the Western Hemisphere.. When we got to SF Furuno sent a tech van out and they fixed it apologizing, "Sorry, we had some bad boards, should be fine now." That was summer of 1991.

 

[Henning]

I didn't reply to the poll because none of the options reflect my opinions about GPS. Personally I think it's a great navigation tool, I use my KLN94 (VFR) on every flight as a nav-aid and plan to upgrade to a GNS430W (IFR) as soon as finances allow. OTOH, I'm a bit troubled that we seem to putting all our eggs in the GPS basket when the technology is dependent of such weak signals that can be rendered unusable by so many different but highly plausable scenarios. The technology is nice as long as it works but I fear we may be producing a generation of pilots that couldn't find their way to the FBO mens room if their GPSs crapped out.
So to me GPS is just another tool in the toolbox.

I think that sums up most people's concern with it, but I'm not seeing VORs and ILSs disappearing yet, and then there are always vectors and ATC guided approaches, so I'm not overly concerned at this point. More of a concern to me is basic VFR pilotage/ded reckoning airmanship, even airline pilots are failing at it.

 

[jordane93]

I love using a 430. I also love naviagating with just VOR's. To keep me in check and current with both, I'll switch off flying IFR in a /U and /G. Its hard to find a plane without GPS in it nowadays. If its in the plane, why not use? Know how to work ALL the equipment in your aircraft

 

[Clark1961]

I've crossed over to the dark side with the 430W. Most of the time I use it to tell the aircraft where to go (when I remember to turn on the GPSS, otherwise I'm just on a heading that is close the MLOD) then I look out the window to see where we are really going. Every now and then I'll tune a VOR and turn the DME on...okay, okay - when flying from/to the home 'drome the DME is always on since it's a back-up for avoiding bad navigation under the DEN Bravo.

Of course I learned to fly VFR & IFR without a GPS in the aircraft. I did have an ADF but that didn't make up for the lack of GPS...

 

[oldShar]

I wouldn't say I hate GPS, but I do require than anyone I train be able to get where they want to go if GPS becomes unavailable, due to either onboard equipment failure, satellite outages, military jamming games, flying too close to some TV transmission towers, or Abdul bin Terrorist figuring out how to jam GPS. I'm not turning loose in the skies someone who cannot safely get from Point A to Point B without a fully operational GPS. And that's no different than how I trained Private Pilots in the pre-GPS days regarding VOR use -- if you can't get there with nothing but a map and compass, you don't get signed off for the PP practical test. Likewise, for IFR today, if you can't get the plane on the ground safely with nothing but one VOR, you don't get endorsed for the IR practical test.

I second that!

Come out west youngins -- where RAIM NOTAMS are quite the common presentation.
(at least one can see far enough ahead to visually spot the next waypoint)

 

[MAKG1]

I don't hate GPS, but I do hate the toys that people think are GPSs.

As a guy who works in technology, I can tell you you would be a lot more hesitant about depending upon these if you saw the kind of effort that doesn't go into them. Testing is expensive. For safety-rated systems, it's more than 95% of the budget. For mission critical systems, it's 90%. And it takes a while. So, for consumer gadgets that aren't required to do otherwise, that's where the cuts happen first. Consumers tolerate terrible quality.

GPS can be broken, rather easily. Not just GPS receivers, but GPS itself.

By all means use it if you have it. Know how to use other things should the need arise. More importantly, use secondary navigation to know when the need arises. A lot of folks turn on the magenta line and just follow it. That's not enough. At the very least, correlate with landmarks on the ground. It's good practice to use VORs (and/or DME if available) as well to identify critical points, just in case you can't see the ground or you get lost (crossed VORs give you a direction to fly to get out of the mess -- pilotage doesn't necessarily).

So, to summarize, trust but verify (well, that's not really trust but I hope you get the point).

This seems hardly universal, but I start to get rather nervous when depending upon a single device for any period of time with no backup or known "out." Heck, I had to depend on a flashlight on a night flight recently when half the panel lighting blew out. That made me nervous enough to terminate the flight (so, now I get to fly again to regain my night currency -- I had planned two more full-stops).