Why no soft field instructions in POH?

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Tracey

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tracey
Hello again everyone...

My instructor and I were going over soft and short field landings today (talking and looking at the POH, the clouds were too low for VFR flight <sad face>) and there were instructions for short field landings/TOs in the POH, but not soft field. Anyone know why?
 
Tracey said:
Hello again everyone...

My instructor and I were going over soft and short field landings today (talking and looking at the POH, the clouds were too low for VFR flight <sad face>) and there were instructions for short field landings/TOs in the POH, but not soft field. Anyone know why?
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:confused:Really? huh, sure they aren't in a different section than where you're looking?
 
Not sure, my POH has a small section for soft field flap settings.

Be sure to talk to your instructor about Soft AND Short field landings/ TOs.
 
Henning said:
:confused:Really? huh, sure they aren't in a different section than where you're looking?
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I looked in other sections... I only saw short field, normal and x-wind. I didn't see soft field. I'll look again tomorrow to be certain. But we were talking about soft specifically, so I was trying to find it in the POH and couldn't. :dunno:
 
It's not in my POH either. I'd assume because it's more of a technique rather than performance maneuver.
 
Tracey said:
I looked in other sections... I only saw short field, normal and x-wind. I didn't see soft field. I'll look again tomorrow to be certain. But we were talking about soft specifically, so I was trying to find it in the POH and couldn't. :dunno:
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Hmmmm... sorry, don't have a 172 POH to look at, but I think there is something there, it's just in a place that always makes me go "oh yeah, where the f- did they put that again?" every time I want to look it up for a check out quiz at a new FBO to rent. I think it's like 2 sections away from where you're looking in 'unusual' or 'emergency' procedures section.

Basically carry in an extra 3-5 kts and really round out/stretch your flare rolling the wheels on as the horn comes on rather than holding it off that last 6" till it drops down into the stall.
 
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Henning said:
Basically carry in an extra 3-5 kts and really round out/stretch your flare rolling the wheels on as the horn comes on rather than holding it off that last 6" till it drops down into the stall.
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Ok thanks... I'm looking forward to practicing these different landings, I think they'll make my overall landings much better and more precise.

And short field landings-- are they a bit more "abrupt", (do you kind of land harder) than your "typical" landing. That's what I was told today.
 
Tracey said:
Hello again everyone...

My instructor and I were going over soft and short field landings today (talking and looking at the POH, the clouds were too low for VFR flight <sad face>) and there were instructions for short field landings/TOs in the POH, but not soft field. Anyone know why?
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The Cessna 152 and 172 POHs do not have labeled sections on soft field operations. However, check under the "Taxi" and "Wing Flap Settings" (or their equivalents in your airplane's POH) under "Normal Procedures" (or its equivalent in your airplane's POH) and you should find mention of soft (and rough) field recommendations.

For example, both the 1985 C-152 POH and 1976 C-172 POH provide a couple sentences of guidance on soft field takeoffs under the wing flap settings sections.

EDIT: Also look under "Normal Procedures", "Landing", "Normal Landing" and you should also find mention of soft field landing. Bottom line is that soft field recommendations are buried in paragraphs on normal operations.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
The Cessna 152 and 172 POHs do not have labeled sections on soft field operations. However, check under the "Taxi" and "Wing Flap Settings" (or their equivalents in your airplane's POH) under "Normal Procedures" (or its equivalent in your airplane's POH) and you should find mention of soft (and rough) field recommendations.

For example, both the 1985 C-152 POH and 1976 C-172 POH provide a couple sentences of guidance on soft field takeoffs under the wing flap settings sections.
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Ok, I'll look there (and more thoroughly thru the POH) tomorrow. Thank you!
 
Tracey said:
Ok, I'll look there (and more thoroughly thru the POH) tomorrow. Thank you!
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Per my late edit: Also look under "Normal Procedures", "Landing", "Normal Landing" and you should also find mention of soft field landing. Bottom line is that soft field recommendations are buried in paragraphs on normal operations.

Yet another edit: The 172M manual does a better job (such as it is) on this than the 152 manual I have. The guidance in the FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook" is probably best, since most of what you need to know is technique that is roughly independent of airplane model.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
Per my late edit: Also look under "Normal Procedures", "Landing", "Normal Landing" and you should also find mention of soft field landing. Bottom line is that soft field recommendations are buried in paragraphs on normal operations.
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A-ha! Probably why it escaped my notice. I was looking for a heading (like Short Field, Normal, etc). Didn't realize Soft field was the unloved stepsister wth no heading of her own! Thanks.
 
And make your CFI do a landing or two on turf. It is somewhat different and better done the first time with an experienced hand.
 
And, yes, short fields are a bit more abrupt.....
 
Tracey said:
Ok thanks... I'm looking forward to practicing these different landings, I think they'll make my overall landings much better and more precise.

And short field landings-- are they a bit more "abrupt", (do you kind of land harder) than your "typical" landing. That's what I was told today.
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Yes and no. You carry less speed on final, the plane is configured full flaps to have the most drag, so your round-out and flare occur in a shorter amount of time before the wheels touch. (Reference the extra speed on final thread you started.......several suggestions on minimum speed.... you want minimum float time) If timed well, you can have greaser short fields. Since things need to be better timed, with faster reactions, some short field attempts at minimum speed will be a bit "abrupt"

Once you get good at soft landings and short landings separately, you can combine them.
 
Tracey said:
Hello again everyone...

My instructor and I were going over soft and short field landings today (talking and looking at the POH, the clouds were too low for VFR flight <sad face>) and there were instructions for short field landings/TOs in the POH, but not soft field. Anyone know why?
Click to expand...
Depending on when the airplane was built, and depending on the mood of the person writing the POH/AFM, there may be extensive notes about all sorts of things or there may be nothing. For my 1969 cherokee, there's no POH, only an AFM and it has very limited data and nothing about the variety of TO/L circumstances. Yet when you look at the late model Cessnas, the level of detail can be overwhelming.

As for surfaces, you'll use different techniques for ice, asphalt, turf, mud, gravel, etc. Each has different characteristics you need to deal with. There's really no hard & fast rule.

Before the iPod/iPad (iOS), there were some apps for the Palm and other devices that provided suggested distances & speeds for various types of surfaces, weather, etc. They used general rules of thumb and applied them to the data you entered for nominal values of takeoff, takeoff/50 ft, landing, landing/50 ft, and so on.

I haven't seen anything for iOS but I haven't been looking for one, either. Anyone know of an app for this?
 
Tracey said:
Ok thanks... I'm looking forward to practicing these different landings, I think they'll make my overall landings much better and more precise.

And short field landings-- are they a bit more "abrupt", (do you kind of land harder) than your "typical" landing. That's what I was told today.
Click to expand...


NO!!! SOFT field, think about what you need, you need the opposite of abrupt, you need to minimize your impact force (angle& speed combined) to prevent digging in. Soft field should be the least abrupt landing you make. If you know you're going into a soft field, reduce your tire pressures to minimum before you take off to maximize the floatation. PSI inside the tire = PSI of the foot print.

Short field on the other hand, the hazard is not getting stopped in time, those are the 'abrupt' landings.
 
The other key objective to a soft field landing is to protect the nose gear - it will dig in easier than the mains so you want keep it off the ground as much as possible. The taxi technique after landing (and on a soft field takeoff) is to carry a little extra power and hold the yoke back to lighten the nose.
 
Sometimes they're not there because while there are often specific configurations or settings for max performance (short field) takeoffs and landings, the soft field is more of a generic "you want to get the weight from the wheels to the wings (or vice versa) as smoothly as possible, and avoid digging in the nose" technique.

Some airplanes optimized for bush work may have very specific soft field instructions, though, so always check the AFM, and then if there's nothing there, use the underlying principles you've been taught.
 
Henning said:
NO!!! SOFT field, think about what you need, you need the opposite of abrupt, you need to minimize your impact force (angle& speed combined) to prevent digging in. Soft field should be the least abrupt landing you make. If you know you're going into a soft field, reduce your tire pressures to minimum before you take off to maximize the floatation. PSI inside the tire = PSI of the foot print.

Short field on the other hand, the hazard is not getting stopped in time, those are the 'abrupt' landings.
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Notice how she said short was abrupt. Just like you said in your second paragraph Henning. I think you read soft when she wrote short.
 
Old Geek said:
It's not in my POH either. I'd assume because it's more of a technique rather than performance maneuver.
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Bingo.

There's really no difference between a soft-field landing and a "normal" one other than concerns about the quality of the surface you are landing on. And the surfaces that would qualify an needing the technique (and the associated amount of "soft" you'd have to add to the touchdown) are so variable that I can see why a manufacturer would hesitate to put in anything more than a general description...

..which leads to this thought - isn't there anything in the "expanded" text section that follows the checklists in the normal procedures tab about soft fields? I think that's usually where I've seen the general description.
 
Done well, a soft field (which for most of us means "turf") is the softest landing you can make.

My daughter calls it "cushiony." :)

Owners should prefer turf as well -- grass helps slow the airplane without undue wear on the tires and brakes. The only downside to turf is dew (slick as whale snot) and flecks of mud/grass on your wings.
 
"Turf" to me does not equate to "soft field". A dirt strip in Clay County TX during rainy season equates to a soft field lol. A turf strip when dry is not 'soft' in this context.
 
In the Cessna POH, section 4, after all the "checklisty" stuff there's a part called "Amplified Normal Procedures". You'll find all sorts of useful tidbits there, including the part titled "wing flap settings" that recommends 10 degrees of flaps for soft or rough field takeoffs.

There's nothing specific about soft field landings, thus the general principles apply.
 
Henning said:
NO!!! SOFT field, think about what you need, you need the opposite of abrupt, you need to minimize your impact force (angle& speed combined) to prevent digging in. Soft field should be the least abrupt landing you make. If you know you're going into a soft field, reduce your tire pressures to minimum before you take off to maximize the floatation. PSI inside the tire = PSI of the foot print.

Short field on the other hand, the hazard is not getting stopped in time, those are the 'abrupt' landings.
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That's what I said-- that short field was abrupt (or moreso than a soft field).

And anyway, thanks for the response, good info.
 
TMetzinger said:
In the Cessna POH, section 4, after all the "checklisty" stuff there's a part called "Amplified Normal Procedures". You'll find all sorts of useful tidbits there, including the part titled "wing flap settings" that recommends 10 degrees of flaps for soft or rough field takeoffs.

There's nothing specific about soft field landings, thus the general principles apply.
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Thanks Tim... I guess that's why there's no specific title for those types of landings. And thanks for the POH recommendation, too-- I will dive in tomorrow.
 
jesse said:
Notice how she said short was abrupt. Just like you said in your second paragraph Henning. I think you read soft when she wrote short.
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It's way too easy to flip flop those words. We need to change them. Maybe "horizontally challenged" instead of short? :rolleyes:
 
Too confusing with "vertically challenged" meaning short as far as people go...

I always think of short field as "minimal runway usage".
 
Henning said:
"Turf" to me does not equate to "soft field". A dirt strip in Clay County TX during rainy season equates to a soft field lol. A turf strip when dry is not 'soft' in this context.
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Yea I distinctly remember my first "turf" landing. In the summer on a dried out grass strip. There was tall (er) grass in some places and bald patches in others. It was bumpy. The tip of the prop was green from weed whacking.
 
Tracey said:
It's way too easy to flip flop those words. We need to change them. Maybe "horizontally challenged" instead of short? :rolleyes:
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My Primary instructor always strung the two together: "We're going to do shorts and softs today..."

For at least a week I thought it was all in the same.

After one particularly firm arrival on Keller Brothers I turned and said, "This doesn't need to be short, does it?"

"No, this is a soft. But most softs are short."

So I just made everything a short.
 
"Soft" fields out here are dirt and rocks. The technique remains the same and if you don't do it well then you get a nicked prop
 
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